Fat Mac Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Where does it say they were smaller? Maybe it didn't take a military genius but Robert has proven himself an able commander. You don't have to be an intellectual to be a good commander.I disagree, he did face the cream of the crop, Robert may well have been the greatest commander of his time. I feel like people want to take away Robert's accomplishments because he was an asshole. What we do know about him -He played an important role in the Battle of Gulltown, slaying Marq Grafton-He won three battles in a day at Summerhall, slaying Lord Fell (?) personally-He was able to make an escape after going up against the Reach's vanguard-He slayed Myles Mooton in the Battle of the Bells-He slayed Rhaegar at the Trident, and was probably important to the battle as a whole We don't know how much people like Ned contributed to Gulltown or the Trident. But we do know Robert was the sole commander during Summerhall. Winning three battles in one day (and personally fighting in them) is not an easy feat, and Robert deserves his props for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Where does it say they were smaller? Maybe it didn't take a military genius but Robert has proven himself an able commander. You don't have to be an intellectual to be a good commander.I disagree, he did face the cream of the crop, Robert may well have been the greatest commander of his time. Where does it say they were smaller? Common sense. A look at the Wikia page for House Baratheon shows 28 noble houses in the Stormlands sworn to House Baratheon. Three of them did not join. It seems natural that Robert's army was larger then any one army, and possibly larger then all three put together. I disagree that he faced the cream of the crop. He did not have to face Tywin Lannister, or Ned, or Jon, who would be my choices for the best commanders in that time period. I don't see how you can say that Robert was the greatest commander of his time when your primary argument that Randyll Tarly is so awesome is that he beat Robert. It's apparent to me that without the aid of Ned and Jon and Hoster Tully, Robert would have been hunted down to the ground like a rabbit at Stoney Sept and probably may not have won at the Trident. He certainly would not have been able to rule at all without Jon Arryn. It wasn't that he was just not an intellectual. He was un-intellectual. He couldn't tie his shoelaces without help but he sure could slam dunk when he got on the court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I feel like people want to take away Robert's accomplishments because he was an asshole. I feel that Robert's accomplishments are entirely seperate from his being an ass. As to being an ass, I honestly think he was far less of an ass then Randyll Tarly. I give Robert props for being a great leader, a great knight, and a great friend. He was a lousy King. He was a lousy husband. He was a lousy "dad". None of that has anything to do with being a lousy commander, which he wasn't, he just wasn't great. I don't think he was a great commander because as I've mentioned before, his victory at Summerhall has been blown out of proportion in my mind. He defeated three smaller armies in detail. He obviously wasn't a moron, but he wasn't smart enough to beat Randyll Tarly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 That they didn't know the specifics is irrelevant (if they indeed didn't), they clearly understood that there was some incredible threat approaching that needed to be stopped, as I mentioned before. It is not irrelevant. Every culture has some sort of world ending dogma belief. Mel is wrong in just about all her visions and has not done anything thus far to help the end of the world. Stannis was using her for a singular purpose and needed to convince Davos it was something more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I like Randyll. Just a small post for it. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Where does it say they were smaller? Common sense. A look at the Wikia page for House Baratheon shows 28 noble houses in the Stormlands sworn to House Baratheon. Three of them did not join. It seems natural that Robert's army was larger then any one army, and possibly larger then all three put together. I disagree that he faced the cream of the crop. He did not have to face Tywin Lannister, or Ned, or Jon, who would be my choices for the best commanders in that time period. I don't see how you can say that Robert was the greatest commander of his time when your primary argument that Randyll Tarly is so awesome is that he beat Robert. It's apparent to me that without the aid of Ned and Jon and Hoster Tully, Robert would have been hunted down to the ground like a rabbit at Stoney Sept and probably may not have won at the Trident. He certainly would not have been able to rule at all without Jon Arryn. It wasn't that he was just not an intellectual. He was un-intellectual. He couldn't tie his shoelaces without help but he sure could slam dunk when he got on the court. And you assume every single other house in the Stormlands sided with Robert? Common sense says not likely. Robert had to move quickly to deal with his rebels so he wouldn't of been able to amass near the strength of the Stormlands to deal with them. Aside from Tywin none of those men distinguished themselves as individuals on the battlefield, you are just assuming since they were smarter than Robert that they were the keys to all the rebel victories. Randyll did beat Robert, so a case could be made for him as the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 And you assume every single other house in the Stormlands sided with Robert? Common sense says not likely. Robert had to move quickly to deal with his rebels so he wouldn't of been able to amass near the strength of the Stormlands to deal with them.Aside from Tywin none of those men distinguished themselves as individuals on the battlefield, you are just assuming since they were smarter than Robert that they were the keys to all the rebel victories. Randyll did beat Robert, so a case could be made for him as the best. I'm assuming that he had time to at least rally enough to outnumber or equal the forces of three houses, which also had to rally together quickly. Out of those 25 other houses, how many would he need to equal or outnumber the forces of those three houses? I'm assuming that since Robert never showed any patience or deep intellect or even cleverness that he didn't hold some savant-like genius for war. Other then Summerhall, which victory can be shown to be solely and undeniably and unarguably his? His greatest contribution at the Trident seems to have been knocking Rhaegar into the afterlife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 It is not irrelevant. Every culture has some sort of world ending dogma belief. Mel is wrong in just about all her visions and has not done anything thus far to help the end of the world. Stannis was using her for a singular purpose and needed to convince Davos it was something more. Load of crock. Mel is wrong in just about all her visions Stannis beating Renly at Storm's End? Davos trying to murder her? The Fist of the First Men aftermath? Jon being surrounded by danger? Others, like Renly beating Stannis at King's Landing, did turn out to be true, but in ways she couldn't have guessed. It's become popular to act as if Melisandre is a powerless charlatan, but it's not accurate. has not done anything thus far to help the end of the world Other than alerting Stannis to the end of the world, helping him reach the Wall, helping him save the Night's Watch, etc. Stannis was using her for a singular purpose and needed to convince Davos it was something more. Stannis didn't need to convince Davos of anything. Regardless, his arrival at the Wall? His position changed, and the available information changed. That's it. He was convinced of the apocalypse in ASOS, he questioned and came to accept why R'hllor chose him in ASOS, he came to believe the cost of winning the crown would be dying in ASOS, and he reached the point where he was no longer willing to disregard Melisandre's warnings in ASOS. Pretending that he was lying through his teeth in these passages, "After the battle, when I was lost to despair, the Lady Melisandre bid me gaze into the hearthfire. The chimney was drawing strongly, and bits of ash were rising from the fire. I stared at them, feeling half a fool, but she bid me look deeper, and . . . the ashes were white, rising in the updraft, yet all at once it seemed as if they were falling. Snow, I thought. Then the sparks in the air seemed to circle, to become a ring of torches, and I was looking through the fire down on some high hill in a forest. The cinders had become men in black behind the torches, and there were shapes moving through the snow. For all the heat of the fire, I felt a cold so terrible I shivered, and when I did the sight was gone, the fire but a fire once again. But what I saw was real, I'd stake my kingdom on it." "R'hllor chooses queerly, then." The king grimaced, as if he'd tasted something foul. "Why me, and not my brothers? Renly and his peach. In my dreams I see the juice running from his mouth, the blood from his throat. If he had done his duty by his brother, we would have smashed Lord Tywin. A victory even Robert could be proud of. Robert . . . " His teeth ground side to side. "He is in my dreams as well. Laughing. Drinking. Boasting. Those were the things he was best at. Those, and fighting. I never bested him at anything. The Lord of Light should have made Robert his champion. Why me?" "How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies . . . a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone . . . she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?" He ground his teeth. "We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must . . . we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty." "I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning . . . burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?" The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King's Landing. "If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?" "I know his name. Spare me your reproaches. I like this no more than you do, but my duty is to the realm. My duty . . . " He turned back to Melisandre. "You swear there is no other way? Swear it on your life, for I promise, you shall die by inches if you lie." and then somehow came to be convinced of the great battle after fighting some wildlings is an insane reading of the text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hos the Hostage Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Tarly's treatment of Brienne is unnaturally harsh, I think because secretly, he might have preferred Brienne as a daughter than Sam as a son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
averde Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I understand why Randyll was the way he was to Sam, but I don't have any sympathy for the man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salafi Stannis Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Rhaegar, the one he beat to win his crown. I understand you dislike him but how can you deny a man who won 3 battles knows about fighting wars? Three battles in one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelsontropical Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Randyll is basically the General Patton of this world. The qualities that make him a top-tier battle commander are the qualities that make him incapable of sympathy on a personal, family level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brynden Blackfish Jr. Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I'm pretty sure Randyll was using a clever psychological tactic with Sam to confirm Sam's extreme cowardice, and that he wouldn't have actually killed his son. If Sam had called Randyll's bluff and showed any hint of anger that his own father threatened to have him killed, Randyll would have probably given Sam another chance because he showed courage for once. Why wouldn't he give Sam another chance, when he spent so much time trying to get Sam to show even a hint of courage? However, Randyll knew that Sam was probably too much of a coward to even get angry about the threat, and this confirmed everything he already knew about Sam. Randyll cares too much about his wife and fears the taboo of kinslaying too much to have killed Sam, IMO. Lord Tarly rightfully feared Sam inheriting Horn Hill, as Sam didn't show any of the necessary traits that a strong lord must posess, but the right way to get rid of Sam would have been to let him go to the Citadel so he could study to become a maester, instead of getting angry with Sam for wanting to become one. The best way to summarize Randyll Tarly is that he isn't wrong and is very good at his job, but he's an asshole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Ravens Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Sympathy for the Randyll? Non whatsoever. What he did and said to Sam and Brienne is canon. There is no wiggle room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Understanding=/=sympathyYeah, this.But honestly, I only dislike Randyl because of how he treated treated Brienne, not Sam. Sam's cowardice is so repulsive whenever he thinks back on how his father abused him, I can barely care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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