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Valyrian/Dragonlord blood is needed to tame/subdue dragons


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It could also happen that being a dragonrider isn't dependant on the percentage of Targaryen/dragonrider blood. It could be like a gene. You get it from a dragonrider parent, or not, 50 % chance of getting it (I'm not speaking about a real gene, but about something that is passed down the same way) and no middle ground between having it or not.

If being a dragonrider works like a gene, and dragonriders didn't intermarry with other dragonriders, you have a 50 % of getting it from a dragonrider parent.

But if both parents are dragonriders, you get a 75 % chance.

But if dad or mom were lucky and got dragonrider "genes" from both sides, they have a 100 % chance of passing them down,

So a person with a remote dragonrider ancestor would have as low chance of being a dragonrider himself/herself, but it would exist. Most Targaryens from old times would have dragonrider "genes" from both sides, and they practiced incest to make sure it remained that way.

And again: I'm not speaking of real genes, I'm speaking of a quality that is inherited the same way as genes do.

This is not true. Yes, most of the people in Westeros seem to be against polygamy. But they do not consider the children of polygamous marriage not to be legitimate. Crastor's and Oldfather's multiple marriages are acknowledges as real marriages and their children as legitimate children. Children of "salt wives" of IB are considered legitimate children. No matter what they might personally think of polygamy, there is no evidence of anyone in Westeros ever stating that the children of second wives were not legitimate. Consider that--other than Maegor--every king after Aegon I (prior to RR) were descendants from Aegon's second wife.

Yeah this is basically what I think, so we agree then, that the more Targ blood you have from dragonriding Targaryens, the more likely it is that you will be able to ride/tame (but it's not a certainty).

Whenever we try to impose some genetical rules to dragonriding, we end up with the circular logic.

For me, the only "benefit" of Targ blood can be the affinity gained by the dragons after being bred and trained by these purple-eyed people for 5000 years. This is a real phenomenon and can make sense.

As for the magical benefits of having Targ blood, I can count increased heat tolerance, strange dreams related to dragons and an increased potential to work magic. Given the highly possible unnatural origins of dragons, having Valyrian blood might be an ingredient in not taming/riding dragons but breeding/hatching them, as that is what really matters.

For me, everyone can ride a dragon if the conditions are right. The easiest way is to get a newly born hatchling and take care of it like you do for a puppy. It will be used to you. That is actually the same case with direwolf puppies. No Stark kid could have tamed an adult direwolf if they did not work out their gift with easy to bond puppies.

Name change again huh?

I have had this argument with Apple before and I won it, also Ran sided with me when the two of them had the same argument, which was; That anyone could ride a dragon, but that no one has ever tried before.

This is crazy, how could no one have EVER tried before? Valyrians have been doing this for 5000 years, they have all had stable boys, servants, assistants, groomers, dragon-poop shovelers, dragon feeders, all sorts of people who would be required to be around the dragons all the time. Stands to reason that one or many of them would try to ride a dragon at some point right??? Curiosity and all that, but like I said earlier, if there was even ONE successful case of a non-Valyrian taming/riding a dragon it would be national news. Every maester would have heard of it, whoever did it would go down in history forever, it would be no secret. That's how we know it has not happened.

"Valyrians alone in the world were able to tame and subdue the dragons."

But we have seen with Dany's handmaids that it is not true. They have helped her to feed and care for dragons since they day there were hatched, yet there is no special bonds between them and the dragons. They won't become dragonriders.

However, dragons liked Brown Ben Plumm immediately upon meeting him for the first time.

.

But raising puppies wouldn't have allowed them to bond if they didn't have the gift in the first place. Bloodraven says so and he is plugged into the weirnet, which contains knowledge of the CoTF on the subject.

As posted for the millionth time, one cannot produce a single reasonable explanation about how Gormon Massey and Steffon Darklyn were allowed to try to mount a dragon under the supervision of Rhaenyra.

The Winged Knight rode a dragon.

Perhaps finding a hatchling was not as easy as one might think. Perhaps many people tried to tame adult dragons and failed miserably.

Did they?

And where is it stated that they tried to mount Viserion or Rhaegal? Without trying, how can you be sure that they cannot be dragonriders?

Even more important evidence is that not ALL Valyrians could ride dragons--only dragonlord families (I think 40) and Targs are the only ones that survived after the Doom. So at this point no other Valyrians can ride dragons--only Targs. If blood was not relevant, at some point, some Valyrian other than one from the dragonlord families would have successfully ridden a dragon. But none has. Why, because the "blood magic" that allowed dragon binding must have been performed in a way that only bound the dragons to the specific dragonlord houses. If blood were not relevant, at some point over the thousands of years, as you point out, someone would have tried it successfully. We have novellas that show Targs almost accidentally binding with a dragon. If blood did not matter, someone at some point would have done the same thing and become bound to a dragon. But we have ZERO reports of this happening--because it cannot happen because blood magic was necessary to form the bond and Targs are the only ones left with the blood that was part of that ritual. All those years of the other Valyrians not being able to bind with a dragon--someone living in Valyria that was not part of a dragonlord family would at least accidentally bound to a dragon. But it never happened. Why? Because it cannot.

Sorry. I must have taken a statement out of context. Of course dragonseed bastards have the ability to ride a dragon under the right circumstances. The novellas make this 100% clear. I was merely stating that polygamy =/= bastard.

Ok ok, tell me again where these passages are? I want to check them tonight and get back to you. The ones about Rhaenyra/Massey/Darklyn and about the Winged Knight, please.

But keep in mind that we are talking about taming and subduing/bonding. Not just standing in close proximity or riding double with a dragonlord one time. PATQ shows that if a dragonlord is on the back of a dragon, he can pull on another passenger.

Sorry but this is a lame reasoning. You are making false assumptions where we do not know certain things about the history of dragons. George said that they were once all over the world. When? How did they vanish? Without having good answers for such questions, what you say is similar to "hey look, 13.6 billion years is a long time, all the planets should be teeming with life that is specialized to live according to local conditions."

Ok, Mr. Paper Waver/AntZ/Mormont's craven, I will take you up on the challenge.

Notice that both of them were burned to death and did not succeed in riding a dragon. But they are in a war and there is a call out for dragonseed. Two brave men believe they have what it take to ride a dragon. The "queen" (if you take her side she was queen) is desperate for dragon riders. The success of the war is at stake, Maybe Rhaenyra knows you need Targ blood but is just completely desperate or maybe she is unaware that Targ blood is needed. Either way is a plausible explanation. When your life could depend on something being true--no matter how unlikely--it is easy to convince oneself that it is true.

Now if they were able to bind to a dragon, you would have your proof (unless there was some suggestion of a Targ ancestor). But as it is, to me, this is proof the other way. Here were two very brave and capable men who were supervised by an expert in dragon riding, and nevertheless, the attempt failed. Why did it fail? Because they had no Targ blood.

Dragons are not horses. They do not easily accept men upon their backs, and when angered or threatened, they attack. Sixteen men lost their lives during an attempt to become dragonriders. Three times that number were burned or maimed. Steffon Darklyn was burned to death whilst attempting to mount the dragon Seasmoke. Lord Gormon Massey suffered the same fate when approaching Vermithor.

“We cannot ask these men to shed blood with us, then kill them.” Bold John Roxton settled the dispute. “We kill the bastards now,” he said. “Afterward, let the bravest of us claim their dragons and fly them into battle.” No man in that cellar doubted that Roxton was speaking of himself.

Afterward, Lord Unwin Peake offered a thousand golden dragons to any knight of noble birth who could claim Silverwing. Three men came forth. When the first had his arm torn off and the second burned to death, the third man reconsidered.

The first Ser Artys Arryn supposedly rode upon a huge falcon (possibly a distorted memory of dragonriders seen from afar, Archmaester Perestan suggests). Armies of eagles fought at his command.
Spoiler
Something was moving atop one of them, he saw. A dragon, but which one? At this distance, it could as easily have been an eagle. A very big eagle.

A perfect example of circular logic again. Congratulations.

A random guy might have some seed blood but noble people with tractable ancestry cannot take that chance.

Actually I think the fact that Dragons were all over the world before they were tamed by Valyrians proves even more that Valyrians are the only ones who were capable of taming/subduing them. Otherwise there would be dragon riders all over the world right? If it is so easy, then why are there not other continents with dragonriders? If anyone can do it, that was there chance, when the dragons were plentiful and habitating everywhere.

In the words of the Republican Patron Saint Ronny, "There you go again." What are you talking about? There are no reports of anyone riding a dragon before the taming by the Valyrians. But absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence. Whatever happened before "recorded history" on Planetos is basically just speculation. So I admit we cannot be sure, but certainly there are not passed down reports of anyone riding a dragon during those periods.

But we have many years of Valyrians riding dragons prior to the Doom which is part of recorded history. We have reports that the ONLY dragon riders during that entire time were members of the dragonlord families. That is what we have been told in the text (novellas, world book, etc.) on more than one occasion. So while it is possible that someone rode a dragon who was not of that family and somehow it did not become known, given how amazing such a feat would have been, I find it unlikely. Riding a dragon is cool. Valyrians who could not ride a dragon likely were quite jealous of the dragonlord families. At some point, someone would have intentionally or perhaps accidentally become bound to a dragon who was not of a dragonlord family. But we have NO reports of it happening. To the contrary, we are told it did not happen. Why? Because it cannot happen.

from the other thread

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A perfect example of circular logic again. Congratulations.

A random guy might have some seed blood but noble people with tractable ancestry cannot take that chance.

I think you are mischaracterizing my argument. These guys did not know that Targ blood was necessary. No one told them. Rhaenyra might not have known either or might have known but hoped there could be exceptions. Rhaenyra is willing to risk their lives if they are. She is not going to tell them they will probably die because she is hoping against hope that somehow it works. But it does not work. If GRRM wanted to establish that dragon blood was not required, he could have given us an example. He has not. Instead he gives an example where if it ever was going to work, it probably would have worked. And not just one example--but two examples. And both die from trying. So which is more likely--that they were right to try and it might have worked but they were just unlucky--OR that even though it was the perfect circumstance for it to work on a non-Targ, it did not work because Targ blood is required. To me, the latter is much more likely.

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Mormont's Craven

I am not trying to be a smart ass seriously, but are those really your example of Non-Valyrians taming/subduing a dragon?

You do realize......that is not what the quotes say??

I am pointing the contradiction about how Rhaenyra allowed them to take their chances with dragons while according to TPatQ she definitely knew that only Targaryens can ride dragons.

“Our uncle calls us Strongs, and claims that we are bastards, but when the lords see us on dragonback they will know that for a lie. Only Targaryens ride dragons.”

This is Rhaenyra's son talking. You cannot claim that Rhaenyra was clueless about dragonriding dynamics.

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I am pointing the contradiction about how Rhaenyra allowed them to take their chances with dragons while according to TPatQ she definitely knew that only Targaryens can ride dragons.

“Our uncle calls us Strongs, and claims that we are bastards, but when the lords see us on dragonback they will know that for a lie. Only Targaryens ride dragons.”

This is Rhaenyra's son talking. You cannot claim that Rhaenyra was clueless about dragonriding dynamics.

Oh ok, I'm not sure about Rhaenyra. Yes I would think she would know what it takes to ride a dragon, but like UL said, maybe she was just desperate and willing to let anyone try. I dont think we can make or break a theory based on what one distressed person thought. But I do see your point. I dont think it proves anything though.

And the eagle thing, well TYrion thinks the same thing in WoW;

"A dragon, but which one? At this distance, it could as easily have been an eagle. A very big eagle." (WoW)

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I go with that theory. And I'm pretty sure it will be proven to be true, since GRRM himself makes a big fuzz out of this dragon-riding mystery, suggesting that this riddle will be investigated and revealed in future novels. Most likely, I think, by Bran's investigation of the past (Long Night, War for the Dawn).



There is pretty much no likely possibility imaginable to disprove that theory as GRRM will simply not be able to provide us with the complete ancestry of any dragonrider he introduces - neither Westerosi, nor Essosi. So we can never be sure if such people do not have a drop of Valyrian blood. And all the Targaryen dragonriders clearly had Valyrian blood, so having Valyrian blood most certainly does not prevent you from becoming a dragonrider...


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Oh ok, I'm not sure about Rhaenyra. Yes I would think she would know what it takes to ride a dragon, but like UL said, maybe she was just desperate and willing to let anyone try. I dont think we can make or break a theory based on what one distressed person thought. But I do see your point. I dont think it proves anything though.

And the eagle thing, well TYrion thinks the same thing in WoW;

"A dragon, but which one? At this distance, it could as easily have been an eagle. A very big eagle." (WoW)

Random people are something but Steffon Darklyn and Gormon Massey were not "anyone" that Rhaenyra could have risked to lose. Steffon was her LC of the KG and Gormon was a Lord.

I never brought it up in the recent discussion but I believe there is a serious work done by the anti-dragon Citadel conspirators to kill the dragons and corrupt the dragonlore, starting with the ban of Septon Barth's book. They also seem to produce all those foolish dragon books Tyrion read and ridiculed in an attempt to mud the waters. Remember how LF reacted to the letter of Stannis which was certainly true? He spread a ridiculous lie which made people forget about the letter of Stannis. Those foolish dragon books should serve the same purpose.

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This is Rhaenyra's son talking. You cannot claim that Rhaenyra was clueless about dragonriding dynamics.

In the century between Aegon and Rhaenyra, there were plenty of Targaryens for whom no dragon is mentioned or who explicitly were dragonless.

Aegon - eventually tamed Quicksilver, so dragonless till then

Viserys - no dragon mentioned

Rhaena´s twins - no dragons mentioned, nor indeed any fate after Uncle Jaehaerys usurped their throne

Vaemond the Dragonless - expressly Dragonless

The 6 daughters of Jaehaerys and Alysanne - no dragons mentioned

So, there had been more Targaryens than dragons. Cannibal and Sheepstealer were unridden... why? Did any Targaryens attempt to tame Cannibal but survive the failure?

How far back was Rhaenyra´s dragonlore?

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I go with that theory. And I'm pretty sure it will be proven to be true, since GRRM himself makes a big fuzz out of this dragon-riding mystery, suggesting that this riddle will be investigated and revealed in future novels. Most likely, I think, by Bran's investigation of the past (Long Night, War for the Dawn).

There is pretty much no likely possibility imaginable to disprove that theory as GRRM will simply not be able to provide us with the complete ancestry of any dragonrider he introduces - neither Westerosi, nor Essosi. So we can never be sure if such people do not have a drop of Valyrian blood. And all the Targaryen dragonriders clearly had Valyrian blood, so having Valyrian blood most certainly does not prevent you from becoming a dragonrider...

True to the bolded, but my guess is that it wont come down to all that. For the purposes of writing an interesting story, I would bet a lot that every dragon rider we see has clear cut Targ-Lineage (apart from whatever the horn will allow).

Random people are something but Steffon Darklyn and Gormon Massey were not "anyone" that Rhaenyra could have risked to lose. Steffon was her LC of the KG and Gormon was a Lord.

I never brought it up in the recent discussion but I believe there is a serious work done by the anti-dragon Citadel conspirators to kill the dragons and corrupt the dragonlore, starting with the ban of Septon Barth's book. They also seem to produce all those foolish dragon books Tyrion read and ridiculed in an attempt to mud the waters. Remember how LF reacted to the letter of Stannis which was certainly true? He spread a ridiculous lie which made people forget about the letter of Stannis. Those foolish dragon books should serve the same purpose.

I believe you are correct about the bolded for sure, but to what end? I mean what will the anti-dragon Citadel accomplish by printing false info about dragons?

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I believe you are correct about the bolded for sure, but to what end? I mean what will the anti-dragon Citadel accomplish by printing false info about dragons?

Because they never want the Targaryens to bring the dragons back, nor can they want to risk random people working magic to find eggs, hatch them and ride dragons.

Besides, I think "only Targaryens can ride dragons" was also part of the Targaryen propoganda department. Surely, they didnot want the people of Westeros to think that they have a chance to ride their dragons, even if they guard their dragons very tightly.

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We have only bits and pieces on Mushroom/Jace's call to ennoble people who successfully claim a dragon. But a point in getting volunteers would have been to not tell anyone that they would most likely anyway because they were not Targaryens or had no Targaryen blood. We really don't know what prompted Massey's and Darklyn's notion that they could do it. Perhaps they believed that they had a Targaryen (bastard) in their ancestry (considering that the Masseys were close allies of Dragonstone even before the Conquest that would be actually not totally impossible)?



Perhaps they were ambitious enough to ignore good reasoning, or they simply did ignore/dismiss the common belief that dragonlord blood was necessary - after all, people on those boards do, too, so why the hell shouldn't they?



Ser Steffon Darklyn may have believed he owed it to his queen to ensure that all the dragons should be ridden by trustworthy and loyal people, not by some guy of questionable character/loyalties. That would have been a pretty good idea...



I also don't think that 'good dragonlore' was consciously destroyed after the Dance. There would not have been all that much dragonlore in Westeros to begin with, and what there was would not have been all that important after the dragons were dead. The Targaryens may have had some scrolls and ancient texts on Dragonstone, but that would have been it, I imagine.


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Random people are something but Steffon Darklyn and Gormon Massey were not "anyone" that Rhaenyra could have risked to lose. Steffon was her LC of the KG and Gormon was a Lord.

That is exactly why she would let them try--because if anyone will be able to prove that the Targ requirement has just been years of propaganda and be able to bind, it would be these brave and noble men. So she takes a huge risk and lets them try--because they volunteer knowing the risk. It was not a secret that most people thought Targ blood was required. But they wanted to try anyway and she needed to know for sure whether Targ blood really was required. And she got her answer. It is required.

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Fixed it for you.

Um no, in PATQ, no one ever officially says that Nettles is a dragonseed, WOIAF is the first place it is written, not repeated.

And I ask again, do you disagree with her name or that the dragons name was sheepstealer? Do you disagree with all the other facts that are known about her life? Do you disagree that her and Dameon are a couple and that she survives him? Or is the ONLY thing you disagree with that he calls her a 'dragonseed'?

This is what I dont get, how do you know what facts the Maester is guessing at? Only the facts you previously fought against, or could anything he said be incorrect? I'm just curious what else you know he was wrong about in this section about the Dance?

If you are looking at it this way, then nothing from the WOIAF is accurate and we should just throw it in the trash right? Oh let me guess, the line about 'Valyrians alone having the power to tame and subdue dragons' is also incorrect right? Just a random guess with no textual backing right?

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That is exactly why she would let them try--because if anyone will be able to prove that the Targ requirement has just been years of propaganda and be able to bind, it would be these brave and noble men. So she takes a huge risk and lets them try--because they volunteer knowing the risk. It was not a secret that most people thought Targ blood was required. But they wanted to try anyway and she needed to know for sure whether Targ blood really was required. And she got her answer. It is required.

No, she took no risk at all because she knew it very well that Targ blood is not a necessity to ride a dragon. That was a Targ propoganda.

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Taking it from the other thread:

Whenever we try to impose some genetical rules to dragonriding, we end up with the circular logic.

For me, the only "benefit" of Targ blood can be the affinity gained by the dragons after being bred and trained by these purple-eyed people for 5000 years. This is a real phenomenon and can make sense.

As for the magical benefits of having Targ blood, I can count increased heat tolerance, strange dreams related to dragons and an increased potential to work magic. Given the highly possible unnatural origins of dragons, having Valyrian blood might be an ingredient in not taming/riding dragons but breeding/hatching them, as that is what really matters.

For me, everyone can ride a dragon if the conditions are right. The easiest way is to get a newly born hatchling and take care of it like you do for a puppy. It will be used to you. That is actually the same case with direwolf puppies. No Stark kid could have tamed an adult direwolf if they did not work out their gift with easy to bond puppies.

I used to strongly dislike the idea of Targaryens being special snowflakes and that only they had the ability to ride dragons, but now that we know that there are so many people with dragonrider blood around, it doesn't bother me anymore. It's just a another magical skill that some lucky people have, like skinchanging, prophecy or fire manipulation.

Oh, yes, Dany instinctively performed the ritual to hatch the dragon eggs, and brought them back to the world, but it was kind of a one time thing, and we don't have to accept the Targaryens as a magical übermensch, because even a shepherd in Dragonstone or a fishmonger in KL could potentially be a dragonrider too.

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