Why didnt Rickard start a war?

[Barty]

From what we've seen of Rickard Stark - he's ambitious, brave(willing to take on the KG in one on one fight) and the leader of the most powerful power bloc in westeros and yet when he hears his daughter is kidnapped and his son is arrested he answers the summons of a King he knows to be mad.

Compare the situation to Robb - his sisters and Father are arrested by the King and he is called to KL. But simply going to KL is not even considered. Bannermen are called, an army is gathered in haste and marches to free Ned.

Look at Tywin - his son arrested on the orders of the Hand of the King (or his wife). What's his response?? Gather an army and crush the Riverlands.

When Margaery Tyrell is arrested even the buffoon Mace Tyrell is smart enough to go to KL with an army at his back.

So why did Rickard Stark refuse to go this route?? He would certainly have the support of the Tullys (Brandon is their son-in-law) and the Arryns (Jon Arryn's heir is arrested as well). And for Ned's and Lyanna's sake even Robert Baratheon would side with Rickard. So why not gather an army and march to the gates of KL and then demand Brandon and Lyanna back? 20,000 men are far more intimidating than 200.

Another question is why did no one else go with Rickard?? Brandon was not the only one arrested - Elbert Arryn, Kyle Royce, Ethan Glover and Jeffory Mallister were as well. Yet none of their father's/family members bothered to go (or did they - none of them are ever mentioned). Jon Arryn certainly did not.

Edit: Sorry - wrong section. I think this should be in general. Can the mods help me out here??

[Bluetiger]

Fathers of those arrested with Brandon also came to King's Landing with Rickard . All of them were killed - fathers and sons except Glover

[Aemond's Eye]

From what we've seen of Rickard Stark - he's ambitious, brave(willing to take on the KG in one on one fight) and the leader of the most powerful power bloc in westeros and yet when he hears his daughter is kidnapped and his son is arrested he answers the summons of a King he knows to be mad.

Compare the situation to Robb - his sisters and Father are arrested by the King and he is called to KL. But simply going to KL is not even considered. Bannermen are called, an army is gathered in haste and marches to free Ned.

Look at Tywin - his son arrested on the orders of the Hand of the King (or his wife). What's his response?? Gather an army and crush the Riverlands.

When Margaery Tyrell is arrested even the buffoon Mace Tyrell is smart enough to go to KL with an army at his back.

So why did Rickard Stark refuse to go this route?? He would certainly have the support of the Tullys (Brandon is their son-in-law) and the Arryns (Jon Arryn's heir is arrested as well). And for Ned's and Lyanna's sake even Robert Baratheon would side with Rickard. So why not gather an army and march to the gates of KL and then demand Brandon and Lyanna back? 20,000 men are far more intimidating than 200.

Another question is why did no one else go with Rickard?? Brandon was not the only one arrested - Elbert Arryn, Kyle Royce, Ethan Glover and Jeffory Mallister were as well. Yet none of their father's/family members bothered to go (or did they - none of them are ever mentioned). Jon Arryn certainly did not.

Edit: Sorry - wrong section. I think this should be in general. Can the mods help me out here??

I think this will be answered before the series ends. It could be that he wasn't as rash as Brandon and was making moves behind the scenes. It could be that he already knew from Lyanna - and/or Ned - that she had no wish to marry Robert, and eloped with Rhaegar rather than being kidnapped. I don't think we can answer why he didn't rebel or seek support from other noble families until we know what actually happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Rickard coming to KL rather than start a war confirms to me that the "Southron Ambitions" thing, or at least the part in which he was trying to overthrow the Targaryens, is 100% bullshit. People put too much faith in the words of a bitter woman, and one that might just been saying what Roose wants to hear.

[Barty]

Fathers of those arrested with Brandon also came to King's Landing with Rickard . All of them were killed - fathers and sons except Glover

Who?? Elbert Arryn's father died when he was born - that makes Jon Arryn his guardian but Jon did not go. According to the wiki Jeffory was probably Jason Mallister's brother since Jason avenged a dead brother at the Trident - but there is no mention of their father, Jason supposedly avenged only one man. We know Glover was not killed and that only leaves Kyle Royce's father who we dont know.

[Barty]

Rickard coming to KL rather than start a war confirms to me that the "Southron Ambitions" thing, or at least the part in which he was trying to overthrow the Targaryens, is 100% bullshit. People put too much faith in the words of a bitter woman, and one that might just been saying what Roose wants to hear.

Even without ambitions - it seems to be rather stupid to walk into KL with no protection or backup. Robb had no ambitions and even he knew going south alone was a death sentence.

Why did Rickard think that Aerys would be rational? He saw him at Harrenhall - or at least got reports. The only thing that might make a little sense is that he thought that not even Aerys would be stupid enough to kill him - arguably the most powerful man in the 7 kingdoms at that point.

[Bironic]

It wasn't the smartest move but he wasn't without protection. According to the wiki he was with 200 of his best men in KL.

[Barty]

It wasn't the smartest move but he wasn't without protection. According to the wiki he was with 200 of his best men in KL.

Thats as good as without protection - the City watch alone had them outnumbered 10:1, not to mention the Targaryen sworn swords and household guards and the Kingsguard. The only use those 200 are to safely get Rickard Stark to the city.

[Chaircat Meow]

Barty,

The problem with all speculation about Rhaegar and Lyanna is that we're clearly missing some pieces of the jigsaw. I think GrrM is trying to feed us more and more of these pieces as the story progresses. Some readers are determined to ignore them of course. However, we're still not in possession of all the relevant facts which we would require to figure out exactly what was going on.

I will have a go at answering but there will inevitably be loose ends that just don't fit at this stage. One way in looks to be the story of Bael the Bard. Bael was a singer and was associated with the blue winter rose of Winterfell. He spirited away Lord Stark's daughter and left her with a son, who became Lord Stark (allegedly). Rhaegar may have wanted to imitate Bael as a way of thwarting Rickard. Given Rickard will have known the history of his house he may have figured out what was going on when Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared. Rhaegar intended to destroy his ambition of a Stark-Baratheon monarchy but intended to give him a Stark-Targ heir in return, and like old Lord Starks's daughter, Lya would turn up when that was done. I imagine Rickard was pretty angry about this, of course, but he had to make the decision as to whether war was now worth it or not. He couldn't become the king's father-in-law as he had desired and Rhaegar was giving him part of what he wanted (albeit a distinct second best).

Brandon seems something of a Jaime figure: rash and impulsive. The fact he was willing to ride to Kings Landing with such a following and be so bold in calling out Rhaegar indicates he thought he was pretty powerful. I'd posit that he, unlike Rickard, did not divine Rhaegar's intention. Rickard, like Brandon, thought his position was strong but he also thought Rhaegar was trying to compromise with him. War, for him, was just no longer worth the price. His mistake, I think, was to underestimate the degree to which Aerys and Rhaegar were working from a different page. He may have thought, given Rhae was obviously trying to save House Targaryen by compromising with him, that Rhae, or his followers, would convince Aerys to drop the charges against Brandon. And we know Rhae is criticized, even by close friends, like JonCon, for not moving against Aerys sooner.

[Barty]

Barty,

The problem with all speculation about Rhaegar and Lyanna is that we're clearly missing some pieces of the jigsaw. I think GrrM is trying to feed us more and more of these pieces as the story progresses. Some readers are determined to ignore them of course. However, we're still not in possession of all the relevant facts which we would require to figure out exactly what was going on.

I will have a go at answering but there will inevitably be loose ends that just don't fit at this stage. One way in looks to be the story of Bael the Bard. Bael was a singer and was associated with the blue winter rose of Winterfell. He spirited away Lord Stark's daughter and left her with a son, who became Lord Stark (allegedly). Rhaegar may have wanted to imitate Bael as a way of thwarting Rickard. Given Rickard will have known the history of his house he may have figured out what was going on when Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared. Rhaegar intended to destroy his ambition of a Stark-Baratheon monarchy but intended to give him a Stark-Targ heir in return, and like old Lord Starks's daughter, Lya would turn up when that was done. I imagine Rickard was pretty angry about this, of course, but he had to make the decision as to whether war was now worth it or not. He couldn't become the king's father-in-law as he had desired and Rhaegar was giving him part of what he wanted (albeit a distinct second best).

Brandon seems something of a Jaime figure: rash and impulsive. The fact he was willing to ride to Kings Landing with such a following and be so bold in calling out Rhaegar indicates he thought he was pretty powerful. I'd posit that he, unlike Rickard, did not divine Rhaegar's intention. Rickard, like Brandon, thought his position was strong but he also thought Rhaegar was trying to compromise with him. War, for him, was just no longer worth the price. His mistake, I think, was to underestimate the degree to which Aerys and Rhaegar were working from a different page. He may have thought, given Rhae was obviously trying to save House Targaryen by compromising with him, that Rhae, or his followers, would convince Aerys to drop the charges against Brandon. And we know Rhae is criticized, even by close friends, like JonCon, for not moving against Aerys sooner.

The story of Bael the bard is not known in westeros - only wildlings tell the tale. How did Rickard and Rhaegar get to know it?? Jon doesnt know it and he had all the formal training any Stark gets.

As for the Stark-Targ heir - what would he be the heir of exactly?? The IT and WF are both taken. Its a piss poor deal if you ask me - A definite Stark-Baratheon dynasty vs a Stark-Targ prince who in all probability never gets to be King and this done in a way that dishonors the Starks and offends the Baratheons. War seems more likely than before (remember a lot of the wars in medieval periods go on for pride's sake itself).

The only way your argument works is if Rhaegar promises to set aside Aegon in favor of Jon. Which might be possible - perhaps Doran suspected this as well (he's no man's fool) and thats why Dornish support for the war never came until Aerys threatened Elia (and even then Dorne barely sent one third of their strength).

I however definitely agree that Rickard knew something Brandon did not.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Even without ambitions - it seems to be rather stupid to walk into KL with no protection or backup. Robb had no ambitions and even he knew going south alone was a death sentence.

Why did Rickard think that Aerys would be rational? He saw him at Harrenhall - or at least got reports. The only thing that might make a little sense is that he thought that not even Aerys would be stupid enough to kill him - arguably the most powerful man in the 7 kingdoms at that point.

Because I don't think there was a precedent for a Targ king murdering LPs in cold blood, was there? Rickard had no reason to believe that Aerys wouldn't treat with him.

Barty,

The problem with all speculation about Rhaegar and Lyanna is that we're clearly missing some pieces of the jigsaw. I think GrrM is trying to feed us more and more of these pieces as the story progresses. Some readers are determined to ignore them of course. However, we're still not in possession of all the relevant facts which we would require to figure out exactly what was going on.

I will have a go at answering but there will inevitably be loose ends that just don't fit at this stage. One way in looks to be the story of Bael the Bard. Bael was a singer and was associated with the blue winter rose of Winterfell. He spirited away Lord Stark's daughter and left her with a son, who became Lord Stark (allegedly). Rhaegar may have wanted to imitate Bael as a way of thwarting Rickard. Given Rickard will have known the history of his house he may have figured out what was going on when Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared. Rhaegar intended to destroy his ambition of a Stark-Baratheon monarchy but intended to give him a Stark-Targ heir in return, and like old Lord Starks's daughter, Lya would turn up when that was done. I imagine Rickard was pretty angry about this, of course, but he had to make the decision as to whether war was now worth it or not. He couldn't become the king's father-in-law as he had desired and Rhaegar was giving him part of what he wanted (albeit a distinct second best).

Brandon seems something of a Jaime figure: rash and impulsive. The fact he was willing to ride to Kings Landing with such a following and be so bold in calling out Rhaegar indicates he thought he was pretty powerful. I'd posit that he, unlike Rickard, did not divine Rhaegar's intention. Rickard, like Brandon, thought his position was strong but he also thought Rhaegar was trying to compromise with him. War, for him, was just no longer worth the price. His mistake, I think, was to underestimate the degree to which Aerys and Rhaegar were working from a different page. He may have thought, given Rhae was obviously trying to save House Targaryen by compromising with him, that Rhae, or his followers, would convince Aerys to drop the charges against Brandon. And we know Rhae is criticized, even by close friends, like JonCon, for not moving against Aerys sooner.

I agree with the bolded. People think we have all the pieces of the puzzle. We don't.

Not only didn't Rickard start a war, we know something of young Robert Baratheon's personality. Why didn't he start a war right away? It wasn't until Aerys' actions of killing a LP & his heir, and then demanding another LP's head that a civil war began.

My belief is that a dragonless Dance was being set up, and that the kingdom would've been embroiled in a civil war anyway even if Rhaegar had never touched Lyanna. TWOIAF hints at a split between the King and the Prince. Aerys and Rhaegar couldn't stand each other before RR began, only joining forces out of necessity to put down the rebellion. We know that ToH was originally a cover for a meeting of the LPs. As Yandel points out, Rhaegar didn't have the money to throw such an elaborate party... and the text all but hints at Tywin Lannister paying for it all. After all, we know that Tywin preferred Aerys' son as king as of the Defiance of Duskendale. So I do think the Prince's party was making moves that were thwarted when Aerys showed up and started doing things like naming Tywin's heir to the KG, demanding the head of the KOLT, etc.

Crowning Lyanna wasn't romantic or just to honor her for being KOLT, but it had something to do with signaling to the Starks. I don't think Robert was in on any talks that were occurring, but I think at least a couple of the elder LPs may have been, and I think that Dorne was initially in, too. After all, deposing Aerys would have made Elia Queen. But I think that there were some moves toward deposing Aerys during the Year of the False Spring, and that the players involved are all dead...

Something happened in the year between Harrenhal and the abduction, and I think whatever it was, it was huge, and made LPs lose confidence in Rhaegar before the abduction. That is the major piece of the puzzle that's still missing.

[Bironic]

I think he didn't went to KL with an army because he didn't want to start a war. He wanted to make some agreement/treaty with Aerys that gives him Brandon and/or Lyanna back. He thought that Aerys was reasonable man, one he could talk to. That was his mistake.

[Ser Duncan The Average]

Compare the situation to Robb - his sisters and Father are arrested by the King and he is called to KL. But simply going to KL is not even considered. Bannermen are called, an army is gathered in haste and marches to free Ned.

Look at Tywin - his son arrested on the orders of the Hand of the King (or his wife). What's his response?? Gather an army and crush the Riverlands.

When Margaery Tyrell is arrested even the buffoon Mace Tyrell is smart enough to go to KL with an army at his back.

Maybe the reason that Tywin, Robb and Mace all call their banners is because of what happened to Lord Rickard, after all his death did precede all of these events. It could be that up until this point answering a summons from the king was a relatively safe affair, but now Lords are all a little more cautious when dealing with the Iron Throne.

[joluoto2]

I guess he wanted to try to get his son back. If he had marched down with an army Brandon would be dead. He was grasping at straws, but he wanted to try to save his son.

[The hairy bear]

What Ser Duncan says. Rickard went down to KL because there was no precedent of any king harming a Great Lord in living memory. He could not expect what would happen to him. In fact, he probably thought that no sane king would harm him, since this would undermine his power in front of all the lords and it may end costing him the throne (which is what would end happening, and Aerys should have know it).

In a normal situatuon/king, if a great lord complained about the the crown prince stealing a daughter, the king would beg for forgiveness in his heirs name, and would compensate the lord. That's what Rickard surely expected, and he had reasons to do so.

[marsyao]

Before the Mad King have them both killed, Rickard did not have a valid cause to start a war, Branden was not kidnapped, he was arrested by KIng for shouting insult at the gate of the royal palace and demanding the life of the crown prince, there would be no deny that what his son did was criminal, so the only option Rickard had was to ask a fair trial so that he can present the case why his son commit such a folly, and in the worst case, ask a trail of combat

[joluoto2]

Before the Mad King have them both killed, Rickard did not have a valid cause to start a war, Branden was not kidnapped, he was arrested by KIng for shouting insult at the gate of the royal palace and demanding the life of the crown prince, there would be no deny that what his son did was criminal, so the only option Rickard had was to ask a fair trial so that he can present the case why his son commit such a folly, and in the worst case, ask a trail of combat

I'd say Rickard had plenty of reasons to call the banners, but that would mean the death of his son. He valued his son's life and did what he could to save him.

[the conquering bastard 25]

What if the reason Rickard didn't call his banners is because Lyanna's kidnapping and Brandons arrest was planned?

First look at what we do know about the situation.

Lyanna doesn't to have appeared to be with either her father or Brother. Yet she was still on the Trident, likely kept at Darry, Jonothan Darry was also a member of the KG and from the remarks made by Jamie he was dutiful in his loyalty. Also Darry seems to be neutrally located on the Trident. Because of the WB and Jamie's appearance at castle Darry in Feast I'm going to propose that Darry lies between HH and RR being closer to the Former than the latter and also, why was Lyanna still on the Trident a year after HH? Unless Brandon and Rhaegar were making plans for an allience and Lyanna was the mortar to seal the deal? Rhaegar already had the reputation for going off by himself, it was not unheard of for him to head to SH and not even the KG would attend him. Then think about Ashara Daynes, she would have been on Dragonstone not KL as she was in Elia lady in waiting not Rhaella and the Prince and Princess resided upon Dragonstone. Ashara could have been running messages and given Rhaegar's and Arthur's similar appearance might be enough to fool Varys and his spy network.Allowing the Prince the freedom to plot and roam without word reaching back to the a king or Varys of his plan.

Rickard was headed down for his sons wedding, but Ned and Robert were both still in the Vale, why? Is it not curious that Ned was not in attendance at his brothers own wedding but his squire a son of house Royce in the service of Brandon was? Then there's the curious choice of squires and attendenant with Brandon on his trip to KL.

Kyle Royce, a Glover of the North and Mallister of the Trident.Sure it makes sense as these are the sons of some of the most powerful houses in the Vale and Trident. Surely if they went the Capital and then their powerful father's appear upon the king own invitation. Well when Rhaegar came back from the South with a delegation of southern lords and heirs to despose Aerys II it would have been like a grand council no? Also having said heirs their helps bind the decisions made at the GC and avoids the problems made by Viserys II when the dance. Some of the heirs of the choice were free to rebel because the had not sworn said oath. Have heirs there allievates this problem .

[The Wolves]

Because Rickard probably did not want to drag innocent people into a war because a couple of men couldn't correct a small incident. I'm glad Rickard didn't start a war it would have been very selfish and wrong.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Maybe the reason that Tywin, Robb and Mace all call their banners is because of what happened to Lord Rickard, after all his death did precede all of these events. It could be that up until this point answering a summons from the king was a relatively safe affair, but now Lords are all a little more cautious when dealing with the Iron Throne.

Yep. They all learned their lesson.