My problem with Aegon being a Blackfyre

[ThePosterThatWasPromised]

So I was talking to my mum a few weeks ago about Aegon and whether she thinks she's real or not, and it had not even slightly occurred to her that Aegon might be fake. Even though I'm firmly on team ®Aegon, I thought that surely, an extremely seasoned reader of fantasy like herself must be able to see that there's a decent amount of evidence that he might not be real, even if you don't catch some of the symbolism, like the black dragon with rust, etc, just by the fact that the plan hinges on a swindling, lying mermaid like Varys.

But as I've been going through a reread, there's something I've noticed. The Blackfyres really aren't mentioned all that much. I'm halfway through Storm right now, and I think I've seen the word Blackfyre a maximum of four or five times.

Let's be honest. >99% of ASoIaF fans aren't us. They're not the forum dwellers who will reread books and buy the dunk and egg tales and the world of ice and fire and think about these books in such incredible detail that we do. They're just people who enjoy the books enough to wait for Winds.

Dance left us off with Aegon taking Storm's end with a fairly large host. He's in excellent shape to take the IT, likely during Winds. So the question is: why would George have such an important plot point hinge on Aegon being part of a family that the vast majority of his readership doesn't really know too much about?

Now it's totally possible that he is, but I think that the symbolism is probably just food for the diehards. I believe that while his legitimacy will be called into question, I doubt the fact that he may or may not be a Blackfyre even plays a role. I think, like all the weird tinfoil hat theories, that George just drops hints for us to think about (partly because he wants to give us something to do while he takes so damn long to write these books!)

Am I totally off base here?

[Good Guy Garlan]

Honestly, I only liked and got the Blackfyre angle after reading D&E. Before that, I couldn't give two shits about the Blackfyres or even Bloodraven

So you may have a point. And it's not just that many readers won't know who the Blackfyres are if Aegon is revealed as one. The problem is that they won't care.

[Durran Durrandon]

Yeah, your point is valid. Suggesting that Brienne is a descendent of Dunk is s cute easter egg for the die hard fans. Having a major plot point, like the legitimacy of Aegon , turn on material from the short stories might be a bit of a stretch.

[Cookiesbane]

Does Aegon's legitimacy matter anyways ? Whether he is a Targ or a BF he is the only player in Westeros that represents the old regime. That alone can give him enough support. Concerning the readers, his legitimacy doesn't really affect the story so much. Think of it like Gandalf in LOTR. The fact that he is not human but a Maiar doesn't change the story at all. Yes, the more hardcore reader will get the whole picture but the casual reader will get to eat his pie too.

[Walther von der Vogelweide]

I suspect Aegon being a Blackfyre won't be the focus so much as Aegon being a fraud. It's true that the name Blackfyre likely doesn't mean much to the folks who don't read all the supplementary material, but that doesn't mean there isn't plenty of drama to be milked from watching Jon Connington grapple with the realization that he's spent the majority of his life, and is now spending his last months before his death, fighting for a lie. Or even from watching Aegon himself realize that his entire life has been a giant confidence game. I don't think readers need an in-depth understanding of House Blackfyre to grasp the fallout of Aegon not being who Varys claims he is.

[melx]

black or red dragon is still dragon....

You right about Blackfyres & books but whole world of ASOIAF is getting out of control (after aFFC & aDWD influx of new player & plots went sky high) so GRRM needed 5 prequel novels & history book to justify & establish many story lines...

Similar thing is Marwyn in first 3 books his name was mentioned twice and after aFFC there is good chance of him being important player.....no way casual reader will care about him or understand why suddenly he became so top player

GRRM will not care if people who are not diehard fans dont get all details & connections (since he established them in prequels).......i guess for them it will be like watching GOT without reading books: getting "big picture" without knowing all details

[Leonardo]

Does Aegon's legitimacy matter anyways ? Whether he is a Targ or a BF he is the only player in Westeros that represents the old regime. That alone can give him enough support. Concerning the readers, his legitimacy doesn't really affect the story so much. Think of it like Gandalf in LOTR. The fact that he is not human but a Maiar doesn't change the story at all. Yes, the more hardcore reader will get the whole picture but the casual reader will get to eat his pie too.

Exactly

If he's a blackfye he's still a Dragon. The main line of House targaryen has ended anyways and you could argue Aegon has the better claim

I doubt it will matter what his lineage is

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

Blackfyre Aegon as a theory is a skyscraper built on a paper foundation. It has developed by induction rather than deduction.

Basically it has only a couple pieces of real evidence, all of which have to be interpreted a single way in order to work together.

Take the black dragon sign for example. It's just as likely that is evidence for a true Aegon as it is for a Blackfyre Aegon. According to the Blackfyre theorists the sign is Aegon himself, disguising himself in red rust despite being black underneath. Yet according to many True Aegon theorists the signpost is the Golden Company itself, with the head that washes up representing their truly altered allegiance. They were defeated in the Narrow Sea when they supported a Blackfyre(war of ninepenny kings), only to now wash up on Westeros supporting a Targaryen instead.

[ChillyPolly]

If it is later revealed that Varys is a distant targ relative (such a a Blackfyre or a Velaryon) plotting to put a vaguely Targaryen-looking child on the throne, then I am not sure his precise heritage will be extremely relevant nor that this heritage (whatever it turns out to be) will be too much of a surprise.

[Knight Of Winter]

I agree with most of what's been said in this thread, and that's one of the reasons I don't support Aegon=Blackfyre theory.

In the main series (discounting TWOIAF and D&E novellas), Blackfyres are referenced far too few times in order for them to be major plot mystery.

[Joe Pine]

The Blackfyre stuff I find intensely boring. They're just Targaryens..

[BalerionTheCat]

I don't think it is a problem for GRRM to put very few, seemingly unimportant references early in the books, to become very important later.
Aegon can be a legitimate Blackfyre, any bastard Targaryen, or any one of Valarian blood, and not Rhaegar's son.

[Isobel Harper]

My opinion on the Dunk & Egg Novels is that they add "easter eggs" and add depth to Westeros. They don't add to the plot, per se. Though I haven't read the D&E novels, so I can only go on my feelings from what I've read of others' thoughts on the forums.

I feel that Aegon will be seen as a fraud by many Westerosi (if not most) during his campaign for the thrown. Out of all of those who hear of his landing in Westeros in ADoD and in the sample chapters of AWoW, only Griff (and the GC?) seem to recognize him as legit. Even his own Martell relatives are doubtful. Keeping in mind that the D&E novels add depth instead of add plot, those who have read D&E will only have a greater understanding as to why the nobility and/or the smallfolk don't recognize Aegon's claim and see his as a pretender. "A person with the Golden Company claiming to be a Targaryen? That's so Blackfyre..."

[EternET]

Well the "very few references" argument doesn't work, because of the last greenseer: there's two mentions of " a thousand eyes and one" attributed to him, and his mother calling him "Brynden", however we only have the answer if we read extra content like "Dunk and Egg". And Dunk and Egg is full of Blackfyres. But yeah, fAegon doesn't have to be one, eventhough him being backed by the golden company could indicate the "remaining" Blackfyres are around.

[RainGhost]

I thought he was who he said he was until I started reading Internet theories. It's possible that we'll never learn the truth, so in a way it doesn't matter. And even if he is a Blackfyre, he's still a Targaryen, just not Rhaegar ' s son.

[Fire Eater]

GRRM doesn't visit these forums,so I doubt he drops food for exclusively die hard fans.

Of course, being Blackfyre plays a role. Why would GRRM make Aegon a Blackfyre if it isn't going to impactful to the story? It would surprise the reader who had been deceived into thinking the Blackfyre threat, like Egg and Dunk, that is long dead when it is actually an active threat responsible for much of the events leading up to and in the series. It would be out of character for GRRM's writing to have the real Aegon pop up out of nowhere without so much as a hint.

I agree with most of what's been said in this thread, and that's one of the reasons I don't support Aegon=Blackfyre theory.

In the main series (discounting TWOIAF and D&E novellas), Blackfyres are referenced far too few times in order for them to be major plot mystery.

Except in Dunk and Egg. That also begs the question of why any would fight the last living child of the brother she worshiped?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I doubt that it will matter, or even be brought up.

fAegon will most likely either be revealed to be related to Varys or Illyrio, regardless whether he's a Blackfyre or not. Or he won't be revealed at all and we'll never know for sure.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The Aegon-Blackfyre idea isn't "dependent" on the D&E novellas. The novellas just provide more enthusiastic readers with a deeper understanding of the conflict. I could turn around and ask what the point is of making that conflict a huge part of the spinoff series if it had no role to play in the main series.

As for the Blackfyres being mentioned in the main series. The name first comes up in SoS, when Stannis is talking about traitors.

I count fourteen mentions of the word "Blackfyre" in the main series (using my tablet search function).

4 times in SoS

1 time in AFFC

9 times in ADWD

The book where we get the most detailed information about the Blackfyres is the book in which we first meet Aegon.

Not to mention that they show up in Theon's chapter, with Stannis talking about them.

It's almost as if, in anticipation of the Blackfyres becoming a part of the story, the author is ramping up mentions of them the closer the story gets to that point.

[MyLittleFinger]

I kind of like that the whole point could be what Varys said early on. Power is a trick. Men believe power resides where they want to believe it resides. Blackfyre, Targaryen, Piss Water Prince, Whelp from a whore in Lys, it doesn't matter since people that support Aegon will believe he's real no matter what since it is the way to prop up his claim, while those who don't support him will call him an obvious fraud.

Much like Stannis when he meets with Renly, Renly challenges him by saying the "ruse" about Cersei's kids being Jaime's is quite clever since it makes Stannis the heir. It's convenient. We the readers know the truth, but in the world only those who want to believe it to be true will since there is no proof.

Black or Red, or not at all, a dragon is still a dragon if he has a big enough army.

[barristan-b]

I just don't get why it would be of importance if the string pullers (possibly Varys and Illyrio) are trying to convince everyone he's a real Targaryan and take the throne with the GC and hopefully land Dany as well with them. I don't think he's a Targaryan...but just don't buy the Blackfyre theory. I just think V & I have found the most effective way to get order in the realm (name/faux doesn't matter from their perspective).

Also, the House has had like what 4 rebellions? The proposed people that are speculated all know Dany's alive and with dragons. Hell, one of them gave her 3 dragon eggs.

The stretch you have to pull is that these "secret Blackfyres" don't care about the Blackfyre name in a way. Also, they would have begun hiding the name quite some time ago and well before dragons came to the picture. V & I's agenda seems to be rather based on getting the most effective and powerful set-up going on. The theory just isn't juicy even if he is a Blackfyre, V & I aren't using that name and definitely won't reveal it while Dany's alive.