tomkat364 Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 So Joffrey was killed with the strangler, which Olenna or Margaery dropped into his cup of wine, having been smuggled into the wedding unknowingly by Sansa via hairnet. The hair net was given to her by Ser Dontos, at the instruction of Littlefinger, who had just returned from his successful pact with the Tyrells following Renly's death. From this, we are to gather that part of the pact that Littlefinger made with the Tyrells was to kill off (or allow the possibility of killing off) Joffrey after Margaery was married. I get all that... However, given the rarity of the strangler, how does this poison become available to Littlefinger? We know that faceless men use it, but there's no suggestion that Littlefinger is a faceless man, and that would be silly IMO. We know that the Maester's use it, .i.e. Cressen, and as Cressen states, the citadel is one of the few places it is made. There's no way that Pycelle would help in killing Joffrey, and it's unlikely that Littlefinger could steal it from Pycelle and find someone to make it into a hairnet. So, my question is this: Does this indicate that Littlefinger or the Tyrells are in some way connected to the Great Citadel plot that people assume is going on behind the scenes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyll.Ing. Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Indeed, it is a hole in the story: even having acquired the poison, Littlefinger would have required somebody to fit it into a hairnet like that. I can't see him doing that kind of work himself. Good find, although I somehow doubt it'll go anywhere or have any importance to the story. It's a very minute detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSovereignGrave Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 The Faceless Men and the Citadel aren't the only people who can make it. I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that it was just bought from someone on Lys. And I don't think the cost would be a particularly major hurdle to get over for Littlefinger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomkat364 Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 But Lys is still tied to the Citadel via the Hightowers, and while Littlefinger was nowhere near Lys when he made the deal with the Tyrells. Has he been carrying around this woman's hairnet with the strangler in it just waiting for an opportunity to use it? Seems like an odd place to stash a poison without the very specific purpose that it has in the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 The Hightowers are not tied to Lys at all; their disgraced daughter fled there in exile, hardly a strong connection.Nor is the Strangler only found on Lys. A man with LF's resources should have no difficulty purchasing the Strangler, then its simply a matter of putting it into the hairnet (prising a stone out and replacing it with the Strangler isnt difficult) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I always assumed Olenna provided the poison via connections to the Tyrells in Oldtown. Leo in particular is shady enough to deal with the likes of Marwyn and the scum of the underworld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomkat364 Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 The Hightowers are not tied to Lys at all; their disgraced daughter fled there in exile, hardly a strong connection.Nor is the Strangler only found on Lys. A man with LF's resources should have no difficulty purchasing the Strangler, then its simply a matter of putting it into the hairnet (prising a stone out and replacing it with the Strangler isnt difficult) That's a tie to Lys. She is sleeping with the prince of Lys, and they go to her for help when under attack. It's not like she went there in disgrace, she went there as a royal paramour. The book takes significant pains to describe the strangler as a particularly rare, and hard to obtain poison. Sure, littlefinger may be able to get it, but he is away, far from home, and it comes in the form of a jewel in a woman's hairnet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 That's a tie to Lys. She is sleeping with the prince of Lys, and they go to her for help when under attack. It's not like she went there in disgrace, she went there as a royal paramour. The book takes significant pains to describe the strangler as a particularly rare, and hard to obtain poison. Sure, littlefinger may be able to get it, but he is away, far from home, and it comes in the form of a jewel in a woman's hairnet.She fled from Westeros with her criminal/slaver husband. Then left him for a merchant prince (not the prince). And she is a concubine. Those sound pretty disgraceful. That is not very honorable for a Hightower. “Only to me,” he said. “In half a year my gold was gone, and I was obliged to take service as a sellsword. While I was fighting Braavosi on the Rhoyne, Lynesse moved into the manse of a merchant prince named Tregar Ormollen. They say she is his chief concubine now, and even his wife goes in fear of her.” - ACoK p. 199 The extremely rich and well connected Tyrell's could have given the poison and/or hairnet to LF before he got to KL. Having poison on hand and within jewelry screams of Olenna Tyrell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 That's a tie to Lys. She is sleeping with the prince of Lys, and they go to her for help when under attack. It's not like she went there in disgrace, she went there as a royal paramour. The book takes significant pains to describe the strangler as a particularly rare, and hard to obtain poison. Sure, littlefinger may be able to get it, but he is away, far from home, and it comes in the form of a jewel in a woman's hairnet.Ther is no indication they have been in contact with Lynese for years before this. When she and Jorah were in exile, they were not exactly tripping over themselves to contact them.Pretty sure Dany is given the Strangler among the many gifts people bring to see her Dragons in Qarth, though I could be wrong about that. And LF is absent from King's Landing plenty ti get the Strangler, or for one of his lackies to do it for.him. Someone in Essos could have specifically made the hairnet like that, or as I said, regular amethysts could have been pried out of the hairnet by LF and replaced with the Strangler. Its not difficult, and its no plot.hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 That's a tie to Lys. She is sleeping with the prince of Lys, and they go to her for help when under attack. It's not like she went there in disgrace, she went there as a royal paramour. The official line of House Hightower is "whore of a (sister)", and it's spouted by every grunt. No, they are not on good terms at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I think the simple answer is that old man Kettleblack simply bought it/ had it made in Lys or Myr or something then sailed it back to LF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomkat364 Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 And yet they go to her to seek aid when attacked. They seem to expect her to be able to DO something, so even if they're not penpals they still think she holds some position of importance, even if only as a concubine. Regardless, the only question I was posing was: "Does the association between this poison that is so rare/hard to obtain that it is specifically mentioned how rare/hard to obtain it is when stating that the citadel is one of the few places it is made imply that the resourceful littlefinger who can certainly find a way to obtain this rare poison might have obtained it from an associate within the citadel?" Sure, he could have gotten it elsewhere. Olenna could just always carry around a hairnet with poison in place of an amethyst. Littlefinger could be an accomplished jeweler himself and have both obtained and fitted the poison into the hairnet. But many people think the Citadel is involved in things behind the scenes, so does the specific association with the poison and the citadel imply an association between Littlefinger/Tyrells and the Citadel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerys Frost Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Yeah, I think there's a missing person here. Remember, Baelish can make dragons appear from thin air, which also leads me to believe he's been skimming the treasury. The cost of acquiring this couldn't have been much (in his eyes), he just needed someone else he trusts to go get it, so that no one could point to him as him buying it directly. Although, if Cressen had some, wouldn't Pycelle possibly also have it? Just slip it out of his room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Although, if Cressen had some, wouldn't Pycelle possibly also have it? Just slip it out of his room. I think this is a real possibility since we actually know Tyrion was able to pilfer some poisons from Pycell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 However, given the rarity of the strangler, how does this poison become available to Littlefinger? We know that faceless men use it, but there's no suggestion that Littlefinger is a faceless man, and that would be silly IMO. We know that the Maester's use it, .i.e. Cressen, and as Cressen states, the citadel is one of the few places it is made. There's no way that Pycelle would help in killing Joffrey, and it's unlikely that Littlefinger could steal it from Pycelle and find someone to make it into a hairnet. It is rare but not unheard of. LF is quite clever, and if the death of Jon Arryn demonstrates something in support, it is that he clearly knows about poisons. Maesters and Faceless Men do not have a monopoly on such knowledge. And if it is a matter of importing it, Littlefinger has more contacts in Essos than most people. Perhaps only Varys and Oberyn can rival him in this regard. (One of those also being a confirmed poisoner in his own right.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomkat364 Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 Pycelle specifically mentions the strangler at Tyrion's trial as the poison used, but there is no mention of it when Tyrion is searching his poison stash. And again, Pycelle specifically mentions the Citadel as the origin of the strangler. "When I was a boy at the Citadel my teachers named it simply the strangler." He also mentions how rare the strangler is. Could Pycelle have given it to Littlefinger? Yes, but that would be so out of character for Pycelle that I dismiss it out of hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Pycelle specifically mentions the strangler at Tyrion's trial as the poison used, but there is no mention of it when Tyrion is searching his poison stash. And again, Pycelle specifically mentions the Citadel as the origin of the strangler. "When I was a boy at the Citadel my teachers named it simply the strangler." He also mentions how rare the strangler is. No, Pycelle just said how the poison was being called in the Citadel. Just like the Citadel calls dragonglass obsidian, doesn't mean they had anything to do with inventing it. And, as we know from Cressen, maesters being capable of brewing poisons is not something they advertise, they prefer to be thought of as healers, not killers. It's rare, and expensive, but Littlefinger was rich and known to plan ahead. Hell, he produced tears of Lys on a moment's notice to have Jon Arryn poisoned, for one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I never saw it as an issue. Both Littlefinger and Olenna are wealthy nobles with tons of connections. That either one of them could have discretely acquired the poison isn't unreasonable at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerrorVoid Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 And yeah, LF had aquired Tears of Lys, and yet no one complains about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomkat364 Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 Tears of Lys are known even to Tyrion. They are nowhere mentioned as an unusual or rare poison, while both sections of the book that mention the strangler by name involve a Maester, a disclaimer about its rarity, and the fact that it is specifically known at the Citadel. I'm not particularly hung-up on this concept, but I find the general dismissal of it a little odd In comparison, there are two instances of a poisoner using a poisoned coin: the Alchemist, and Arya. So the next time we see a poisoned coin, we should assume that it came from a Faceless Man. I doubt anyone would argue that, and simply say that poisoned coins are probably a 'dragon a dozen'. So why so little regard for the association of a different poison with the Citadel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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