Did Tywin believe A+J=T ?

[hallam]

I think R+L=J and A+J=T have to be considered mutually exclusive theories. One bastard secret targ is viable. Two is silly.

But we also have a prophecy that is driving Cersei mad in a self-fulfillment paradox and we know Rheagar was obsessed with a prophecy. Could that prophecy explain the actions of Tywin, Aerys and Rheagar?

In particular, say Tywin believes that Aerys is the father of Joanna's child and has the maester attempt to induce an abortion. That would explain Tywin's hatred of Tyrion and his deformity.

Tywin believing it does not necessarily make it true of course. And I don't think there can be more than one secret Targ with bastard parentage. So unless you believe the preposterous notion that R+L = legitimate Jon, these are mutually exclusive theories.

[EastTymor]

If Tywin believed A+J=T, he wouldn't hate Tyrion. He would kill him.

T+J=T with J dying in childbirth makes perfect sense and is 100% consistent with what we know of Tywin, Joanna, and Tyrion's actions and characterizations. A+J=T is a theory in search of a mystery.

[Eddard Tarly2]

Had any abortion attempts failed, Tyrion would likely have been killed shortly after birth. Gonna say that Tywin did not suspect. Anyhow, good point with the mutual exclusivity, if RLJ turns out false then AJT picks up momentum, but for the time being RLJ is sitting strong so Tyrion is probably not a Targ

[Lady Catherine]

If Tywin believed A+J=T, he wouldn't hate Tyrion. He would kill him.

:agree: A + J = T is only possible if Tywin doesn't have a clue of what happened. Considering that he never discovered C + J = J, M and T, I think that is likely.

[hiemal]

If Tywin believed A+J=T, he wouldn't hate Tyrion. He would kill him.

T+J=T with J dying in childbirth makes perfect sense and is 100% consistent with what we know of Tywin, Joanna, and Tyrion's actions and characterizations. A+J=T is a theory in search of a mystery.

Yeah, this. I think if he had any excuse to disown Tyrion he would have taken it.

[GtrGbln]

Maybe it never says but even if he did that doesn't mean its true.

[Chinoiserie]

If Tywin knew for certain he would not nessecarily kill Tyrion since Joanna could ask him not to. But he would send him away somewhere (unless Joanna made really spesific request and Tywin was madly in love with her).

But Tywin being uncertain is more likely in Tyrion Targ scenario. However many people seem to think Tywin is completely evil. He would see himself more like Tywin apologists see him, like Kevan who thinks Tywin was harsh because he had to be. I think killing his wife's child could give him a pause at least regardless how horrible he generally can be.

And he also might think he could not get away with it. It seems unlikely that we would not be able to get away with it. If he could not do it secretly he would not do it since for Tywin to admit being cuckloaded or people thinking he killed his own child would be unacceptable.

[SolomonBlack]

Tyrion was born in 273 AC, in 272 AC for the 10th Anniversary of Aerys reign she visited a tournament in KL bring the twins, at a feast Aerys make remarks about if nursing had ruined her breasts. (World Book pg 116 for the curious)

From this we can take several things. Most importantly Joanna did not live at King's Landing, ergo that to be secret Targ Tyrion must almost certainly have been concieved at this time. Second this and other incidents (Joanna's sevice to the queen and sudden dismissial, the "liberties" Aerys took at the bedding with Joanna) means that Tywin must have been aware of the Aerys lusting for his wife and arguably recently as their last meeting.

Now I can find no more exact information on how many months are involved but nine months could of course easily span the turn of the year. And its not like Tywin would see his lady wife all that much more often so it might well work out either. In an age of no genetic testing... I'd be suspicious too.

Of course Tywin could not have been sure and probably had nothing more to go on then we do because as others point out, Tyrion is still alive.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Tywin believes it's possible. Part of him even wants it to be true because then he didn't father a deformed child. But he's never fully believed it, because it hurt too much to think of Joanna either willingly sleeping with Aerys, or being forced/coerced and keeping that to herself.

He would not have had an abortion attempted. The baby was still his kin, and Joanna's child, regardless of paternity.

GRRM added that about Joanna going to KL around about the time that Tyrion might have been conceived to the world book for a reason. Now, that doesn't mean the reason would be that Tyrion is Aerys' son. It could just be that he wants the possibility of it known. If Tyrion shows up in Westeros on a dragon, everyone (characters, that is) is going to start thinking he's part Targ even if he's 100% Lannister. That might be the entire point.

Just think of Tyrion's thoughts. Which is worse, being the son of Tywin or being the son of Mad Aerys? Will anyone treat him differently if the think he's half-Targ? Would that be better or worse? We could get some seriously interesting scenes out of this!

[hallam]

Tywin believes it's possible. Part of him even wants it to be true because then he didn't father a deformed child. But he's never fully believed it, because it hurt too much to think of Joanna either willingly sleeping with Aerys, or being forced/coerced and keeping that to herself.

OK, yes, definitely not certain that he isn't the father but perhaps suspects more or less depending on the circumstances.

It is very hard to see why Tywin would let Cersei murder Tyrion with the farce of a trial otherwise. And much earlier, why did Tywin take the side he did in Roberts rebellion if he didn't have good reason to hate Aerys?

The only payoffs for Tyrion personally for being a targ would be dragon riding and not having killed his real father.

[Light a wight tonight]

If Tywin believed that Tyrion had been fathered by Aerys Tyrion wouldn't have lived even one day, especially since his birth caused Joanna's death.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Believed? No. Suspected? Quite possible.

[Humble Maester]

I don't think Tywin's actions towards Tyrion would be very consistent with his personality if he knew or even strongly suspected Tyrion wasn't his own son. Tyrion was a whoring, drinking dwarf of a disgrace who "killed" his beloved wife, and still Tywin kept funding his lavish lifestyle and gave him many honours. It's pretty clear he thought he had to look after one of his brood, no matter who or what that person was.

Also, obviously, A+J=T doesn't make any sense either, considering the insulting comments by Aerys, the very short time window of opportunity and pretty much everyone highlighting how much Tywin and Joanna loved one another. So I doubt Tywin considered it credible when it isn't credible even to most readers.

E. dem typoes.

[Mithras]

No.

But Tywin might have suspected Gerion + Joanna = Tyrion.

[TerrorVoid]

Tywin believing in A+J=T is the basis for whole theory

[King Tyrion I]

Tywin believes it's possible. Part of him even wants it to be true because then he didn't father a deformed child. But he's never fully believed it, because it hurt too much to think of Joanna either willingly sleeping with Aerys, or being forced/coerced and keeping that to herself.

He would not have had an abortion attempted. The baby was still his kin, and Joanna's child, regardless of paternity.

GRRM added that about Joanna going to KL around about the time that Tyrion might have been conceived to the world book for a reason. Now, that doesn't mean the reason would be that Tyrion is Aerys' son. It could just be that he wants the possibility of it known. If Tyrion shows up in Westeros on a dragon, everyone (characters, that is) is going to start thinking he's part Targ even if he's 100% Lannister. That might be the entire point.

Just think of Tyrion's thoughts. Which is worse, being the son of Tywin or being the son of Mad Aerys? Will anyone treat him differently if the think he's half-Targ? Would that be better or worse? We could get some seriously interesting scenes out of this!

:agree:

My thoughts exactly. Thank you for this post. :cheers: couldn't have said it better.

[Arrow of the Morning]

I don't think so. Tywin was too proud, he would not allow Tyrion to survive, actually he would never remained like Hand of the King if he discovered that Aerys slept with his wife or fathered a child with her, but he remained in the job after the insult in the feast and many years after.

And I believe Tyrion is true born son of Tywin.

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

Tywin believes it's possible. Part of him even wants it to be true because then he didn't father a deformed child. But he's never fully believed it, because it hurt too much to think of Joanna either willingly sleeping with Aerys, or being forced/coerced and keeping that to herself.

He would not have had an abortion attempted. The baby was still his kin, and Joanna's child, regardless of paternity.

GRRM added that about Joanna going to KL around about the time that Tyrion might have been conceived to the world book for a reason. Now, that doesn't mean the reason would be that Tyrion is Aerys' son. It could just be that he wants the possibility of it known. If Tyrion shows up in Westeros on a dragon, everyone (characters, that is) is going to start thinking he's part Targ even if he's 100% Lannister. That might be the entire point.

Just think of Tyrion's thoughts. Which is worse, being the son of Tywin or being the son of Mad Aerys? Will anyone treat him differently if the think he's half-Targ? Would that be better or worse? We could get some seriously interesting scenes out of this!

I agree. My current thoughts are that Tywin didn't know for sure and that this is why he didn't feel that he could simply kill Tyrion.

It really ends up being some exquisite psychological torture for the character of Tywin because there is no winning for him in either scenario. The idea that Tyrion is his son plays on some of his worst fears because he hates the idea that he would be capable of producing such a "creature" to say nothing of how the creature ended up killing his beloved wife. As bad as this is to Tywin, the other option is that his wife was raped and dishonored by his king and one time friend. (I don't believe Tyrion's conception was consensual; I think she was either raped or coerced.*) With both options, from Tywin's perspective, it must feel like being cursed by the gods.

I think that not knowing would have stayed Tywin's hand because I don't think that he would be willing to risk being a kinslayer. I also think that love of Joanna could have kept Tywin from killing Tyrion.

*As far as my thoughts that Joanna was raped, I think Aerys might very well have made a threat against Tywin to Joanna if she did not comply.

When I think of the way that Tywin handled the Tysha situation, it makes me feel strongly that this was a retaliation that was Joanna related.

One last thing. I always took Tywin's comment about Tyrion being "ill-made" to mean that he was referencing the fact that he's a dwarf but I wonder if he couldn't also have been saying that Tyrion was literally ill-made as in conceived?

[Syphon the Sanitator]

I disagree with the statement about Tywin killing Tyrion in the case of suspecting Tyrion was Aerys II's child with Joanna.

He felt so strongly about Joanna that I doubt he would have gone that far. Then again, I do like the idea of him having Joanna being pushed to abort the child and that attempt failing, accounting for Tyrion's deformities.

[devilish]

There's is no doubt that Aerys lacked the restraint of taking Joanna if he wanted to. The fact that he had appointed Jamie as kingsguard may also add fuel to this theory. With Jamie out of the way, Aerys bastard would become rightful heir to Casterly Rock. What a great way of screwing Tywin and gain a potential ally to the mix.

However this theory seriously overestimate Aerys cunningness and humility. We're talking about a person who confronted Tywin and told him he's not going to allow his son marry his daughter because she's beneath him. The same person went on burning into ashes the Lord Warden of the North and his heir despite knowing, fully well, that the Starks, the Baratheons and House Arryn had sealed a powerful alliance between them through marriage and/or friendship and that there was every chance in the world that House Lannister may end up joining them. Aerys was perfectly capable of raping Joanna. However rest assured that he would make it obvious to Tywin that he did it. After all a 'dragon' is not afraid of anyone even if that person happens to be a Lannister.