I'm Going to Break the Wheel

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Maybe it is you the one who is reading different books. Dany is becoming slowly crazier, just like her father. There's a lot of foreshadowing for her dragons being murder machines. She's also the one who ordered some girls to be tortured.

I'm not saying she is, right now, a villain. No. But the odds are not good. She's going down a dangerous path.

She's really not getting slowly crazier. She's just coming to find that as she obtains more power it becomes harder to rule and make correct decisions. All of her issues are magnified as the sovereign of an unstable country, but her problems aren't insanity moreso than incompetence and inexperience. Jaime describes how Aerys descends into madness. Dany isn't getting off on burning people, locking herself in her room, being too paranoid to trust anyone or forgetting to groom herself. She's made bad decisions and been naive, or even stupid, but she's not getting more crazy. Her final realization is she may just need to become what she was born to become - a conqueror like Aegon, a true dragon. Rather than trying to be diplomatic and compromise, she's realized perhaps she just needs to take it all by force. That doesn't make her mad...She isn't dreaming of torture and destruction for the sake of it. You wouldn't call Aegon the Conqueror mad, or even Robert Baratheon for conquering the 7 seven Kingdoms with violence, so I don't know why you'd apply that logic to Dany.

[OldGimletEye]

She's really not getting slowly crazier. She's just coming to find that as she obtains more power it becomes harder to rule and make correct decisions. All of her issues are magnified as the sovereign of an unstable country, but her problems aren't insanity moreso than incompetence and inexperience. Jaime describes how Aerys descends into madness. Dany isn't getting off on burning people, locking herself in her room, being too paranoid to trust anyone or forgetting to groom herself. She's made bad decisions and been naive, or even stupid, but she's not getting more crazy. Her final realization is she may just need to become what she was born to become - a conqueror like Aegon, a true dragon. Rather than trying to be diplomatic and compromise, she's realized perhaps she just needs to take it all by force. That doesn't make her mad...She isn't dreaming of torture and destruction for the sake of it. You wouldn't call Aegon the Conqueror mad, or even Robert Baratheon for conquering the 7 seven Kingdoms with violence, so I don't know why you'd apply that logic to Dany.

No, but I might call Aegon I a real asshole for invading Dorne, a country that didn't need his "help".

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

No, but I might call Aegon I a real asshole for invading Dorne, a country that didn't need his "help".

I don't think you can be a conqueror without being an asshole really. None of the 7K particularly needed his help, but he took them because he could. That doesn't make him crazy, at least in the sense that Aerys II was crazy.

[OldGimletEye]

I don't think you can be a conqueror without being an asshole really. None of the 7K particularly needed his help, but he took them because he could. That doesn't make him crazy, at least in the sense that Aerys II was crazy.

Perhaps, that is a determination that is highly fact dependent.

[Guess who's back]

That break the wheel line was so cringe worthy. The dramatic music made it even worse.

[Brother Seamus]

and someone else mentioned the coming greyscale plague, as analogy to the role the black death played in weakening the aristocracy in the late middle agesby reducing the supply, and thus increasing the value, of labor, resulting in giving labor overall a better bargaining position regarding privileges, pay and socio-political status overall..

[Brother Seamus]

and someone else mentioned the coming greyscale plague, as analogy to the role the black death played in weakening the aristocracy in the late middle agesby reducing the supply, and thus increasing the value, of labor, resulting in giving labor overall a better bargaining position regarding privileges, pay and socio-political status overall..

[Kyoshi]

You may not think so, but it seems others do.

And again, I do not think Dany is going to be a 'mad queen.' Nor do I believe she's evil. I think she's misguided, and her attempted conquest of the IT is going to lead her to cause a great deal of harm in Westeros that she doesn't necessarily intend. The dragons, in particular, I think are going to be a major problem, both for Westeros, and ultimately Dany herself, and I don't think she sees the potential threat they pose.

Either way, we should have a better idea where her arc is headed by this time next year, as I fully believe she'll be in Westeros by the end of next season.

Fair enough.

Welcome to the internet.

So... I think there are a lot of us who grow bored with flatly delivered impassioned speeches. The "Break the Wheel" speech was awful. ORLY? How do you plan to accomplish that? You have one friend - Dorne (Did Tyrion say Tyrells or Martells, BTW?). Even they will trust you as far as they can throw you. I watched that speech again last night and found it Al Goreian. I was half expecting her to say "lockbox" every other word (Google it).

So in terms of character development, what has she done since Astapor's slaver's market? Nothing badass. She's bumbled around, taken Mereen by commando raid, and then not had the guts to deal with the root of the problem - an entrenched oligarchic culture that does not value human life and provides no basic rights.

She has no plan for getting to Westeros. NONE.

She has no plan for what she's going to do when she gets to Westeros. NONE.

She has no friends or contacts in Westeros. NONE.

She has no idea what is important to accomplish in Westeros. NONE.

She apparently has no intentions of getting a plan or advisors to deal with any of those issues. NONE.

So the average reader/viewer is sitting there thinking what Tyrion tells her - don't go. There will be chaos. You'll do more harm than good. You're stupid. You're going to spend your first five years there settling old scores and trying to figure out who your real friends are. Then your next five years trying to figure out whether your real friends are capable and willing to help you advance your agenda. Then the next five years replacing those who aren't. And that's assuming you leave Mereen with sufficient leadership and governance skills to actually put an effective agenda in place.

Stay in Slaver's Bay. Break that wheel.

Ironically, this seems the perfect example of a flatly delivered passionate speech, rife with misconceptions, exaggerations and inventions not present in either the books or the show.

I hope to understand how being "badass" is something that develops a character. I often have debates on these forums against the implication that show watchers are less intelligent, and therefore interpret the story at a shallower level than book readers. Basically, I stand againt people who think show Watchers are only interested because they want to see this badassness you speak of. This post has just set me back a few years, I think. The irony is that I believe you're book reader as well.

She has a plan for all those things you mentioned. The first being to acquire advisors, she has Tyrion now and Missandei. Others died or were exiled, like Barry and Jorah...yet she learned from them. She has ships from last season, Daario took them from some guy in one of the episodes. I don't understand the following: in one sentence you say she has the Martell or Tyrell family...and a few lines down you say she has no friends in Westeros...contradictory, no?

She knows what to do when she gets there: get as many people on her side as possible, commoners and all. Hence the break the wheel speech.

Maybe it is you the one who is reading different books. Dany is becoming slowly crazier, just like her father. There's a lot of foreshadowing for her dragons being murder machines. She's also the one who ordered some girls to be tortured.

I'm not saying she is, right now, a villain. No. But the odds are not good. She's going down a dangerous path.

Yup, we're definitely reading different books. I missed the excerpts where she slowly goes crazy. Or the foreshadowing where her dragons become murder machines.

The bigger problem with this argument, though, is that Dany is not unique in possessing war weapons. Where Stannis, Tywin and everyone else commands garrisons comprised of knights and deadly swords, known torturers, rapists and other types of killers/monsters, Daenerys has dragons. Every ruler in-universe has his or her own murder machines. Hers just happen to breathe fire and fly. But honestly, if we start judging feudal Lords for having murder machines and other such war weapons, let's at leaSt apply the criticism uniformly.

[Ingelheim]

Yup, we're definitely reading different books. I missed the excerpts where she slowly goes crazy. Or the foreshadowing where her dragons become murder machines.

The bigger problem with this argument, though, is that Dany is not unique in possessing war weapons. Where Stannis, Tywin and everyone else commands garrisons comprised of knights and deadly swords, known torturers, rapists and other types of killers/monsters, Daenerys has dragons. Every ruler in-universe has his or her own murder machines. Hers just happen to breathe fire and fly. But honestly, if we start judging feudal Lords for having murder machines and other such war weapons, let's at leaSt apply the criticism uniformly.

Try to read her last chapter in ADWD.

The problem seems to be that you think everyone on this forum who has anything against Dany has 0 textual proof for it. So, I think it'd be easier for you to read the threads about her foreshadowing, and then, if you still disagree, we can debate. But saying "people here seem to be reading different books" is not a really good answer.

And now it's twice you've compared Dany to Tywin. That's not a good sign.

[Ser Not Appearing]

How do you interpret Daenerys's comment to Tyrion? Is she going to go to Westeros and slaughter every leading noble family? And then perhaps elevate smaller houses that bend to her into their places?

How else do you break the wheel?

It seemed strange, considering she refuses to break Mereen's wheel. Unlike book Dany who is maybe more ready to breathe fire in Slaver's Bay, this Dany is not. It felt incongruous.

[Brother Seamus]

I think that the people hoping for Daenerys to become some kind of populist revolutionary, or for the common people to somehow overthrow the nobility are setting themselves up for disappointment. It isn't going to happen.

First of all, speeches like this coming from Daenerys are just a cheap tactic used by the showmakers to give us a reason to root for her. At what point in the books did she ever express an interest in abolishing the monarchy or the feudal system and magically replacing it with a modern democracy? Never, because that would be a complete reversal of her character. Daenerys is compassionate and cares about the common people, but you do all realize that she still calls herself "Queen," right? And that her claim to the throne in Westeros is based purely off of her family name, and not any other criteria? In other words, legitimacy as defined and purely within a medieval feudal system. She is a consummate monarchist, and hoping for "President Daenerys" or any other political system outside of the ordinary feudalism just goes against her character, and is unrealistic. Not the least because the people of Westeros probably wouldn't support it anyways.

As I'm sure you are all aware, Westeros is a medieval society ruled by lords and knights and kings, and thanks to the magic of fantasy stasis, it has always been that way. It's is literally all they know. Where exactly is the model for this glorious people's republic coming from, exactly? Where is the philosophical framework, where's the intellectual support, where is the strong middle class need to bridge the gap between poor and elite in order to form a functioning society? Modern democracy didn't just "happen" you know: it took centuries of development, economically, social, even technologically before it could be even remotely feasible on a national scale. How do you hold elections for the ruler of an entire continent in a medieval society, when 70 percent of the population is largely illiterate? Peasant farmers who haven't the slightest clue about how to rule, or who is in power, and, it must be said, do not care about the political system are not the foundation of a republican government. The common people are not some massive groundswell seeking revolutionary reform: all they want is peace and to be left alone. Even the sparrows, the most "revolutionary" and subversive ground we've seen thus far have no intention of creating a new form of government: they support the monarchy and the laws and practices of the current Westeros, they simply want the lords and kings to be more conscious of their religious and societal obligations.

Also, if you are taking her claims of "breaking the wheel" as anything other than empty rhetoric, then what exactly will that entail? Tearing down all of the strongest, most powerful houses in Westeros. How does she intend to do this exactly? She has an army of ten thousand men and three dragons - that is impressive. They, on the other hand, have the entire assembled strength of a whole continent, most of whom have no reason to support her to begin with, and who definitely won't support her if she comes marching in with grandiose claims of... what, exactly? "Breaking the wheel?" What does that mean, land reforms, tax reforms, a constitution, entirely new lords raised up while all the paramount houses are crushed? Not only will none of the powers in Westeros that control all of its military and economic strength support her, but the common people likely won't either, seeing how many of them are genuinely devoted to their lords and rulers, like the Northerners and the Starks.

So, either Daenerys will march on Westeros without any real plan, without any support, and without any regard for the people that she knows nothing about but claims to defend, and proceed to burn down everything to establish some experimental new political system that is not feasible in their current society and has never, at any point in the series, ever been conceived of or theorized about or planned on, inevitably leading to a war that will kill thousands in an already tired and miserable kingdom... or we can accept this talk for what it actually is. Talk, and nothing more.

you're setting up a straw man. I doubt anyone thinks the outcome is a 21st century liberal democracy. and many of your objections are overcome by the (expected) fact that by the time the story reaches this point the old system will have been destroyed by the effects of the wars among the westerosi and the others invasion, and all the attendant societal breakdown. so, to the extent your argument is "there no reason to think there will be change", I'd say the story is clear there will be change, in terms of the old system being torn down. the question is whether, when the fighting is over, and society is re-built, do they go back to the old model-that led them to such total disaster-or does something new arise. I'm betting on the latter.

[Kyoshi]

Try to read her last chapter in ADWD.

The problem seems to be that you think everyone on this forum who has anything against Dany has 0 textual proof for it. So, I think it'd be easier for you to read the threads about her foreshadowing, and then, if you still disagree, we can debate. But saying "people here seem to be reading different books" is not a really good answer.

And now it's twice you've compared Dany to Tywin. That's not a good sign.

Thanks for the suggestion. But I've already read the foreshadowing threads. At best, they seem to be the wishes of posters. Their bias was astounding. I remember one where Dany dies in childbirth because MMD said mountains would crumble. ..and then a few pyramids gave off some dust, pow, Dany is definitely dying from childbirth and Jon is the baby daddy! There was One where she wasn't going to fight against the Others because she was sleeping beside an ant wall. And when Drogon fries her because reasons, because it was foreshadowed that Jon must have a black dragon to match or contracts his white direwolf, the details are a bit fuzzy here but yeah, posters basically post their wishes. I'm well aware of those threads. The thing I took away from them is that foreshadowing is our own version of prophecies and that they can only be confirmed in hindsight.

I've read her last chapter, where I suppose you will point to her hallucinations as proof of the madness you so casually liken to her father's. Putting her dehydration, dysentery and hunger aside, she makes several reflections in that chapter, none of which points to madness. Among those reflections is her regret for giving far too much to the slavers and compromising far too much. She them comes to the realisation that when dealing with such demons as those of SB, fire and blood is probably the most logical thing to do. They don't listen. They are greedy. They want their bread buttered on both sides. fire and blood was the last time they listened in Astapor. Otherwise they trample on her. I'm glad for more fire and blood raining on those slavers.

I also compare her to Stannis and Jon and Catelyn and Ned and other flawed characters. Read something into that.

[Brother Seamus]

Try to read her last chapter in ADWD.

The problem seems to be that you think everyone on this forum who has anything against Dany has 0 textual proof for it. So, I think it'd be easier for you to read the threads about her foreshadowing, and then, if you still disagree, we can debate. But saying "people here seem to be reading different books" is not a really good answer.

And now it's twice you've compared Dany to Tywin. That's not a good sign.

read the books 3 times, I'm not aware of any evidence Dany is going crazy like Aerys.

[Drogonthedread]

Thanks for the suggestion. But I've already read the foreshadowing threads. At best, they seem to be the wishes of posters. Their bias was astounding. I remember one where Dany dies in childbirth because MMD said mountains would crumble. ..and then a few pyramids gave off some dust, pow, Dany is definitely dying from childbirth and Jon is the baby daddy! There was One where she wasn't going to fight against the Others because she was sleeping beside an ant wall. And when Drogon fries her because reasons, because it was foreshadowed that Jon must have a black dragon to match or contracts his white direwolf, the details are a bit fuzzy here but yeah, posters basically post their wishes. I'm well aware of those threads. The thing I took away from them is that foreshadowing is our own version of prophecies and that they can only be confirmed in hindsight.

the recent foreshadowing i come to like his that Drogon already left dany when that chapter ends and dany cant know because of the smoke ...when the text says that she went and stood beside drogon and thats how Khal jhaqo found her :bang:

[Lord Freypie]

Aren't you confusing foreshadowing and predictions ?

I remember the post about Drogo always returning to "Dragonstone" at the same moment of the day (dusk), and so going to leave Dany there, it was not based on obscure foreshadowing but on things clearly written in the chapter (ie Drogo always fly at dusk, it's dusk). The unconvincing thing were people imagining Dany couldn't notice Drogon was going to leave, and Drogon still leaving if he has a horde of dothraki to burn/eat, but out of that it was not far fetched.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Also, let's not forget it's a bit ignorant of Dany to lump the Starks with the other Houses playing the game of thrones as seemingly the Starks have been largely happy doing their own thing in the North and that the Starks and the North were forced into the Targaryen regime.

But, history and Dany are like, like, fire and ice.

Exactly. It's like, are the Starks even caring at this point? Sansa's trying to escape a psychopath, Rickon's in exile, Bran's a demigod and Arya's Your Sister of the Canals.

Though for me, the biggest LOL was Tyrion not mentioning Dorne/Martells. Let's conveniently forget them in order to keep our "EPISODE 9 zong shocking" moment. I hope Doran just goes out and says "Larry, you've been in fake Dorne. Bend your knee to me and Arianne will take you to the real deal"

Yep. Perhaps the purpose was to show how naive she is about the current political state of the great houses and the history of the great houses? Particularly the Starks?

[Drogonthedread]

Aren't you confusing foreshadowing and predictions ?

I remember the post about Drogo always returning to "Dragonstone" at the same moment of the day (dusk), and so going to leave Dany there, it was not based on obscure foreshadowing but on things clearly written in the chapter (ie Drogo always fly at dusk, it's dusk). The unconvincing thing were people imagining Dany couldn't notice Drogon was going to leave, and Drogon still leaving if he has a horde of dothraki to burn/eat, but out of that it was not far fetched.

the prediction was based on the foreshadowing that drogon always returns to dragonstone at dusk .even though i am not a believer that he is going to leave dany but i can somewhat see those predictions may come true ...

but i dont know how someone can say that drogon already left when the text says

As the western sky turned the color of a blood bruise, she heard the sound of approaching horses. Dany rose, wiped her hands on her ragged undertunic, and went to stand beside her dragon. That was how Khal Jhaqo found her, when half a hundred mounted warriors emerged from the drifting smoke.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Yet that's exactly what they called her in inside the episode. And there was nothing ominous about the music, tone, or body language in that scene.

That's not what the scene was about. It's about Westeros. And that's what Weiss was talking about.

That is because you like her and refuse to see it. There were plenty of gestures in that scene, but there really is no point digging into that anymore.

The reality is that you worship the character and I thoroughly dislike her, so this debate will go nowhere quickly.

[El Guapo]

Yep. Perhaps the purpose was to show how naive she is about the current political state of the great houses and the history of the great houses? Particularly the Starks?

She didn't bring up the Starks, Tyrion did.

[PatrickStormborn]

Try to read her last chapter in ADWD.

The problem seems to be that you think everyone on this forum who has anything against Dany has 0 textual proof for it. So, I think it'd be easier for you to read the threads about her foreshadowing, and then, if you still disagree, we can debate. But saying "people here seem to be reading different books" is not a really good answer.

And now it's twice you've compared Dany to Tywin. That's not a good sign.

I've read Dany's last chapter in ADwD many, many times, and as far as I can tell there are no signs that she is going mad. She hallucinates whilst suffering from a miscarriage, dehydration, starvation and food poisoning, yes, but I hardly think that qualifies as madness.

Now there are certainly signs that Dany is heading down a violent path as a conqueror... but that really is not an enlightening view LOL. She's been heading that way since the first book - she dragged the wineseller behind her Silver until there was nothing left of him, she massacred the slavers in Astapor, she crucified the Great Masters in Meereen, and she's going to lead a Dothraki invasion of Westeros.

You can look at all of that and say she will be bad for Westeros. I would tend to agree (well, if it wasn't for the War of the Five Kings and the Long Night). But you can't simply reduce that to "madness". The whole point of Dany - especially as a contrast to Cersei and Aerys - is that she's dangerous because she's not mad.