I'm Going to Break the Wheel

[Snark88]

Dany is just another royal brat trying to impose her will on others. Her counterpart Jon would make a better ruler than her, he has much better traits.

The difference between Jon and Dany is that Dany has had so much handed to her on a silver platter. She's got her last name to bear, and 3 dragons which I guarantee she would've gotten nowhere if not for them. I'm not saying she didn't face any difficult trials, but when you compare her to what Jon has faced, Dany is Easy Mode.

Jon on the other hand has put his life on the line and taken risks for the good of the kingdom. He commands leadership through his actions and sacrifices, not his name. It's true half the Night's Watch hate him, but they also have a skewed point of view on the world, but we the viewers recognize his actions as noble, brave, honest, and intelligent. And it's clear from how he handled Stannis, Mance and Tormund that he has a knack for diplomacy. He has a much greater potential to be a good ruler than Daenerys, and if it's true that Jon is a Targaryen, then that's game, set and match.

Sadly I feel that the direction the show is going, Dany is gonna ride in on a white horse and save everybody.

[Hodor's Dragon]

You know, I've probably got a rep around here as being a "Dany hater". But, I really have no particular desire to see her die. It's true that she often annoys the shit out of me, but I just hope she just gets her crap together. I don't deny her potential. I just don't take it for granted that she will reach it.

I think you are right, though, that both Jon and Dany have progressive tendencies, at least when compared to many of their counterparts.

As the Dany haters go, you're one of the ones who can see both sides of the coin. You do have some pretty scathing rants in the tank, but you tend to make fair points more often than not. So cheers, up until the next throw-down, anyway. :cheers:

[GravyFace]

It seems some people are so stuck in their predictions of Dany's ending, that they are completely dismissive of any possible alternate endings. Maybe she's not going to be some mad evil Queen who returns to her home as a compete and absolute jackass. Or even as a Queen who re-conquers Westeros and then just gives up the seat she fought for to her nephew. She's not going to take Westeros and completely follow the status quo.

We don't know GRRM'S intentions for her, as much as people believe they do. Maybe in TWOW she starts heading this route as well and the show just got a head start. Maybe she'll use Fire and Blood in a completely new way. What we do know is that she IS a revolutionary, that's the character George wrote so far. We just haven't seen her ending.

Dany already did what Aegon V lost his life trying to do, by hatching dragons. Maybe she'll be able enact those reforms Aegon tried for. Maybe she'll go one step further and overhaul the system completely.

And the point of having Tyrion by her side, both in the show and books. Is because they're the perfect combination. And not just to help win the iron throne. But to fix slavers bay and possibly fix Westeros. Dany is the revolutionary, the idealist dreamer. Tyrion is the incredibly intelligent realist and even pessimist who can caution her on some of her fantasies, but who needed that kick of inspiration. They need each other.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Dany is just another royal brat trying to impose her will on others. Her counterpart Jon would make a better ruler than her, he has much better traits.

The difference between Jon and Dany is that Dany has had so much handed to her on a silver platter. She's got her last name to bear, and 3 dragons which I guarantee she would've gotten nowhere if not for them. I'm not saying she didn't face any difficult trials, but when you compare her to what Jon has faced, Dany is Easy Mode.

Jon on the other hand has put his life on the line and taken risks for the good of the kingdom. He commands leadership through his actions and sacrifices, not his name. It's true half the Night's Watch hate him, but they also have a skewed point of view on the world, but we the viewers recognize his actions as noble, brave, honest, and intelligent. And it's clear from how he handled Stannis, Mance and Tormund that he has a knack for diplomacy. He has a much greater potential to be a good ruler than Daenerys, and if it's true that Jon is a Targaryen, then that's game, set and match.

Sadly I feel that the direction the show is going, Dany is gonna ride in on a white horse and save everybody.

I don't recall Jon actually walking into a blazing pyre to get anything. Wasn't he named the LC's Steward precisely because of his bloodline? I seem to recall a certain speech from The Old Bear: All I know is that the blood of the First Men flows in the veins of the Starks. The First Men built the Wall, and it's said they remember things otherwise forgotten. And that beast of yours . . . he led us to the wights, warned you of the dead man on the steps. Ser Jaremy would doubtless call that happenstance, yet Ser Jaremy is dead and I'm not. I think you were meant to be here, and I want you and that wolf of yours with us when we go beyond the Wall.

Doesn't Jon also have a special pet? Not to mention his own, personal, magical powers?

Didn't Sam work miracles to get Jon elected LC, while Jon himself was in cruise control?

Scaling the Wall was some pretty hard work, but how does it compare to crossing a seemingly-infinite desert leading a pack of useless mouths, and with no end in sight?

Did Astapor fall into Dany's lap, or did she take it?

Is ruling a foreign city where the entire landed and wealthy elite is solidly against you and plotting your doom secretly just easy peasy? And how about withstanding a siege led by the pale mare? Piece of cake?

Jumping into the ring with Drogon, while his blood lust was up, and popping him with the whip? Anybody would've done it, right? A breeze!

[Veltigar]

I must say this was a big disappointment. I was expecting Hardhome to be bad and Dany/Tyrion to be insanely cool, but I got the exact opposite of that. Tyrion's advice was so terrible. I was literally thinking that if Dany took all his advice and did pretty much the opposite she would have been halfway to winning the IT already.

[bb1180]

Readers should know by now that Dany is a total Mary Sue character, completely beloved by the author and even though readers can get thoroughly annoyed by her and even see her as a bit of a "mad villian", the author thinks she walks on water and shits cotton candy.

Agreed. At this point, I'm thinking it almost has to be intentional by the author (and by D&D in the show), intended to have the readers perceiving Dany one way before throwing a big bucket of cold water on that perception at some point. And based on some of the questionable acts she's taken, there are signs that may happen. Otherwise, we're looking at perfect-princess-benevolent ruler-and-savior Dany who rides in with her magic dragons at the nick of time to save Westeros from the Others. To me, that seems highly problematic in the context of the rest of this story. Not saying it won't happen, but its one of the worst endings that we could get, IMO.

I think, in some way, Dany and those dragons have to be a double-edged sword in order for it to work and not look completely contrived.

[~DarkHorse~]

Yeah, the Others and their Wight Walkers might actually make it easier for her to take over with her people. God, I do not want this series to end with her on a throne being worshiped as a Goddess. That would be the worst ending ever.

:agree:

Daenerys Stormborn, of House Targaryen. Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Queen of Mereen, Breaker of Chains, Mother of Dragons, The prince that was promised, azor ahai reborn and she who ended the long night.... :ack:

I like Dany and wouldn't mind seeing her on the Iron Throne but her swooping in at the climax and saving the day is my worst possible ending. She has not even been in Westeos for over half of the series, let alone knows about the threat/history of the Others. Jon has been building up towards this threat since book 1. I would like to see Jon kill the Night's King via duel rather than Dany frazzling him with her dragons and proclaiming herself the saviour when all she did was ride a dragon.

However, those dragons will be like water for a thirsty man in the Long Night and if Dany is in charge of them, then she will be the saviour because she brought the means of survival.

I personally feel that Dany has already played her part in the prophecy by bringing the dragons into the world. Without the Mother of dragons there would be no fire to defeat the Others. However, I think it will be Jon that leads the attack against the Others, riding one of the dragons. But Jon and Dany are definitely two of the heads and vital in the Long Night. Bran too, who people keep forgetting about!

I just hope Dany doesn't get to Westeros thinking she is bossing everyone about because she has dragons, especially in the North where they have been dealing with this shit from the start.

[Perfidious Algernon]

re: OP - I'd bet Dany was thinking the same thing when she said the line that the writers thought when they wrote it. Namely, "I haven't thought this all the way though but damn if it doesn't sound cool."

She's a kid, remember?

[Snark88]

I don't recall Jon actually walking into a blazing pyre to get anything. Wasn't he named the LC's Steward precisely because of his bloodline? I seem to recall a certain speech from The Old Bear: All I know is that the blood of the First Men flows in the veins of the Starks. The First Men built the Wall, and it's said they remember things otherwise forgotten. And that beast of yours . . . he led us to the wights, warned you of the dead man on the steps. Ser Jaremy would doubtless call that happenstance, yet Ser Jaremy is dead and I'm not. I think you were meant to be here, and I want you and that wolf of yours with us when we go beyond the Wall.

Doesn't Jon also have a special pet? Not to mention his own, personal, magical powers?

Didn't Sam work miracles to get Jon elected LC, while Jon himself was in cruise control?

Scaling the Wall was some pretty hard work, but how does it compare to crossing a seemingly-infinite desert leading a pack of useless mouths, and with no end in sight?

Did Astapor fall into Dany's lap, or did she take it?

Is ruling a foreign city where the entire landed and wealthy elite is solidly against you and plotting your doom secretly just easy peasy? And how about withstanding a siege led by the pale mare? Piece of cake?

Jumping into the ring with Drogon, while his blood lust was up, and popping him with the whip? Anybody would've done it, right? A breeze!

Being named Steward was an obstacle he had to overcome.

A dire wolf is not the same as three dragons. He also hasn't discovered his abilities yet, if he even has them. You're being ridiculous on that one.

Sam did contribute in terms of getting people to consider him. But it was Jon's actions that got people to elect him.

Pick the lesser poison. Personally I would say scaling a 700 foot wall in the bonechilling cold and freezing winds is worse. Not to mention he was among enemies.

Dany did take Astapor, with the help of her dragons. Which goes back to what I said about her getting nowhere if not for them.

A lot of the hatred she received was from her own doing. Going against traditions, not showing mercy to a prisoner in front of the common folk, etc. No it's not easy, but my rant was mostly geared towards her rise to power, not how she wields it, which isn't good.

It's worth mentioning she's the Dragon's mother. Let's see her have that courage if that weren't the case. Would she? Who knows. But Jon did face down death before, and in the show charged against an army of Whitewalkers and wights. This isn't something Dany pulls ahead of him on.

As I mentioned in my post, Dany has faced some legit trials, but Jon had a harder path, and he's also a better person. Dany's intentions may be good, but she executes them immaturely and forces her will on people.

[D-Shiznit]

D&D clearly say that she is headed on the path of a revolutionary. Vary's and Tyrion, two of the smartest people in the world believe she is the right choice for Westeros. The whole "Mad Queen" trope was a pipe dream concocted by Dany haters.

[Young Nan]

D&D clearly say that she is headed on the path of a revolutionary. Vary's and Tyrion, two of the smartest people in the world believe she is the right choice for Westeros. The whole "Mad Queen" trope was a pipe dream concocted by Dany haters.

D&D also can't seem to keep their shit straight for how they're portraying her though. One episode, she's beheading mossador for killing a wise master who was awaiting trial (supposedly to show her fairness as a leader) then a few episodes later she's feeding them arbitrarily to her dragons, without a trial or even any indication that this particular guy even did anything wrong, because she's mad about the Harpy attack that killed Barriston. Also, I don't think that people's opinions on Dany being a "mad queen" are completely unfounded. She does tend to fly off the handle and disregard her own ethics when someone has really pissed her off. Both in the books and the show, in different ways. She expresses regret for it often, after cooling down.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Daenerys is a dictator. She rules by fear. You don't do what she likes, she'll feed you to her dragons or crucify you. Hell, she does it sometimes even if she isn't sure you did anything wrong or not. She thinks it is her birthright to rule the Seven Kingdoms. She'll conquer the kingdoms with swords and dragonfire and rule as Queen.

This is a bit overstated by readers and viewers who sympathize far more with the slavers than those they made suffer.

It seems some people are so stuck in their predictions of Dany's ending, that they are completely dismissive of any possible alternate endings. Maybe she's not going to be some mad evil Queen who returns to her home as a compete and absolute jackass. Or even as a Queen who re-conquers Westeros and then just gives up the seat she fought for to her nephew. She's not going to take Westeros and completely follow the status quo.

We don't know GRRM'S intentions for her, as much as people believe they do. Maybe in TWOW she starts heading this route as well and the show just got a head start. Maybe she'll use Fire and Blood in a completely new way. What we do know is that she IS a revolutionary, that's the character George wrote so far. We just haven't seen her ending.

Dany already did what Aegon V lost his life trying to do, by hatching dragons. Maybe she'll be able enact those reforms Aegon tried for. Maybe she'll go one step further and overhaul the system completely.

And the point of having Tyrion by her side, both in the show and books. Is because they're the perfect combination. And not just to help win the iron throne. But to fix slavers bay and possibly fix Westeros. Dany is the revolutionary, the idealist dreamer. Tyrion is the incredibly intelligent realist and even pessimist who can caution her on some of her fantasies, but who needed that kick of inspiration. They need each other.

:agree:

/thread

No, really. I agree. (See my signature, which I've had for a while...)

[ADanceWithCats]

I understood that much myself. But destroying the institute of feudalism does not sound like something a person with 99 royal titles would advocate especially when said person's only interest seems to be sitting into a certain chair on top of the weel and ruling the world. Ending slavery and ending feudalism are two entirely different things with even more different consequences.

Well, it only just happened, and quite recently, in real life. The transition of Bhutan from a feudal absolute monarchy into a democracy was initiated by its kings. Apparently against the will of Bhutan's people, heh. (It's a fascinating story, really. See this paper here.)

I think that the people hoping for Daenerys to become some kind of populist revolutionary, or for the common people to somehow overthrow the nobility are setting themselves up for disappointment. It isn't going to happen.

First of all, speeches like this coming from Daenerys are just a cheap tactic used by the showmakers to give us a reason to root for her. At what point in the books did she ever express an interest in abolishing the monarchy or the feudal system and magically replacing it with a modern democracy?

Exactly. Never. Which is why show Daenerys has suddenly become far more interesting to me than book Daenerys, who is still blindly stumbling about.

On the other hand, why are you conflating "altering the system" and being "revolutionary" with "modern democracy"? That speaks to a really narrow mindset and black-and-white thinking on your part. History is full of political systems that are neither "absolute monarchy" nor "modern democracy". Elective monarchies (yes, those existed!). Constitutional monarchies. Parliamentary monarchies with strong parliaments. Introducing a federal parliament and a strong independent judiciary - and also centralising the army, which was first actually, funnily enough, one of Joffrey's ideas on the show - would go a long way towards curtailing the role of the local lords.

As I'm sure you are all aware, Westeros is a medieval society ruled by lords and knights and kings, and thanks to the magic of fantasy stasis, it has always been that way. It's is literally all they know. Where exactly is the model for this glorious people's republic coming from, exactly? Where is the philosophical framework

Well, Daenerys has had experience with alternative systems of government, hasn't she? The Essosi city-states, Dothraki tribalism. Thanks to her unique upbringing and experience, she is not bound to the Westerosi political framework.

e: And, of course, Jon also had experience with elections. In the books, the Ironborn are practising elective monarchy. There are examples of alternative systems to draw on.

[Shinjuku Thief]

For some reason I find this 'break the wheel' metaphor really grating. Perhaps it reminds me too much of contemporary politics and the 3 word slogans that are thrown around in the absence of real policies.

[Young Nan]

For some reason I find this 'break the wheel' metaphor really grating. Perhaps it reminds me too much of contemporary politics and the 3 word slogans that are thrown around in the absence of real policies.

You just reminded me of The Campaign:

"America. Freedom. Jesus"

"What does it mean?"

"Who knows, but they love when I say that"

I agree, I kind of rolled my eyes at the analogy. But it is interesting if her intentions include initiating some sort of major political reform. Hopefully it's not just empty rhetoric.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I must say this was a big disappointment. I was expecting Hardhome to be bad and Dany/Tyrion to be insanely cool, but I got the exact opposite of that. Tyrion's advice was so terrible. I was literally thinking that if Dany took all his advice and did pretty much the opposite she would have been halfway to winning the IT already.

You mean like Aegon? Shame we didnt get him.

[Woman of War]

Is anyone else here convinced that Rhaego is somehow somewhere still alive? You know, Danaerys' child who we never saw dead in the books nor in the show and who she sees in her visions in the House of the Undying? He was said to be the prince who mounts the world and there was all the fuss about the baby and then nothing. A witch says he's dead and everyone forgets about him?

Did Jorah see the dead baby and can confirm Mirri Maz Dur's story?

[Shadow Queen Medea]

Dany is the one character, more than any other, who is supposed to be the hardest to figure out. We aren't supposed to know what she meant by "breaking the wheel". We were only meant to interpret it based on how we already feel about her.

I just don't see Dany becoming the "Mad Queen", following in the footsteps of her father, and slaughtering all of her enemies. I interpreted her comment as meaning she has big changes planned for how Westeros will be led, if she is able to conquer it.

[Mithras]

Well, first of all, my point there was just merely to illustrate that good intentions are not enough, since another poster seemed to think that intentions by themselves are enough.

As to the ethical reasonableness of just walking away from Astapor, without attempting to liberate it, I think that highly depends one's estimation that such an act is likely to lead to a broader armed conflict within the region and one's estimation that said armed conflict is likely to lead to an enemy victory. If the probability of an enemy victory is high, then the probability of making the situation worse is likely high as well.

I think many people sitting in Dany's shoes at Astapor, knowing that an attack upon Astapor would likely lead to a regional conflict and knowing a bit about the geo-politics of SB and its surrounding regions might have thought twice about attacking Astapor. Not everyone has the ability to pull a random army corps out of their ass when they get into a jam.

The reason why this whole thing turned into a regional conflict is because Dany started an abolitionist campaign. Yunkish or Meereenese slave masters did not antagonize Dany because she slaughtered the Good Masters of Astapor. Hell, most of them were probably grateful to Dany for removing such business rivals. We know that the Yunkish Wise Masters do not give a single shit about the well-being of the Great Masters of Meereen, considering that they all plan to sack their city and enslave them with incoming the Volantene Fleet. This will make them the only slave masters in the SB.

The right course of action for Dany was to improve slave rights by forcing laws and meanwhile, exacting tributes from the slave masters for her own campaign. The end result would be less atrocities committed, improved conditions for slaves and the increase in slave prices, which is one of the main reasons why slavery dwindled and vanished in the real world in many occasions.

This way, no Volantene or Qartheen would give damn about what she is doing in SB.

[JonisHenryTudor]

ASOIAF would be the shittiest story ever if Dany and her Dragons were not headed to Westeros.

Actually I would be quite fine with that ;).

If Dany is going to replace Westeros' feudal society with something else, she better have a hell of a lot more than just dragons, like you know, an actual plan.

Sounds like she was just talking shit to me.

I agree. That scene needs to be viewed from several perspectives.

For one it is a complete opposite of Jon's scene. First, the tone of each character. Jon sounds desperate and genuine when it comes to working with the wildlings. He is willing to bury the hatchet and unify against a common enemy. He went out of his way to save people that he did not have to save. The entire sequence of scenes before the attack show Jon as a humble LC. He did not have to mention that he killed Mance, but he did anyway. He admitted to doing something that was not entirely true, and one wrong move could have ended his life (of course we have read the books so...). Tormund stepped in to clarify the sequence of events, not Jon. Even in the end, Jon does not flee but leads the NW in an attack/defense. On both points, it says a lot about Jon's character from a visual/verbal standpoint.

Dany's scene - the music, tone, and body language are clearly threatening. Yes she does mention Targaryen, but I don't think that is her trying to be "bipartisan" or objective. She lays out the houses fighting for the throne, and then suggests that she will break, not stop, the wheel. Given the tone of her voice, the music, and the body language, what she is really saying is that she is going to break the other spokes, which will as a consequence break the wheel. Her goal is not democracy, but absolute monarchy (Louis XIV version). Whereas Jon is willing to work with his enemies for a greater good, Dany wants to crush her enemies. Even as Tyrion warns her about the great houses, she still has a nonchalant attitude and is generally unconvinced that she needs them. In her view, the common people will rise for her, which is terribly naive.

I think the worst assumption that one can make is that D&D are idiots, etc. They know the end, and they know how Dany's arc ends. From the visuals, the music, and the tone, this scene is suggesting anything but "savior" or revolutionary.