I'm Going to Break the Wheel

[Dragon_Rider]

I think there's an interesting discussion here that I agree - Book!Dany isn't entirely sure what she's supposed to do, and she at least has a lot to learn, if she is to be a good leader, and she is a monarchist, and she's clueless about her father.

The show, however, is an entirely different beast. They can't have complex characters, so they just eliminate whatever it is that made us discuss them in the first place - Dany and Tyrion's partnership is being set up as the forces of good coming together. Dany's putting her own family in the midst of it because Show!Dany understands her father was Mad, that she needs to rule for the people, and plans on finishing up with the privileges of the Monarchy, apparently. She's your usual Heroic figure from lesser fantasy works, which is sad. But after this episode, have no doubt - Dany and Tyrion will be heroes on the show, they will fight for good, and Dany's a leader that wants to change things for the better. A revolutionary in the 21th century way. Does it make sense? No. But well, Sansa's in Winterfell. Sense has left this season since Episode 1.

Edit: Also, she's apparently okay with working alongside a Lannister, so I'd bet there's no much support for an opposition between Show!Dany and the Show!Starks.

Pretty sure this isn't gonna happen. Meereen, Astapor and Yunkai are falling apart for a reason. It's meant to show that Dany can't really succeed with what she's doing and needs a major change of tactics.

[OldGimletEye]

There are numerous indications in the book that Dany wants to rule benevolently, for the good of the people.

Obviously, it's not about political theory - I'm not sure there is such a thing in Planetos, and if there is, Dany is not one of its practitioners. But she's naturally soft-hearted (with a hot touch of temper thrown in), and seems to have somehow been inculcated with the idea that the role of a monarch is to give the people a good life. We do spend her chapters inside her head, so we don't have to guess. We hear her thinking frequently about wanting the best for her subjects.

And we have learned that good intentions are not enough. They are a start, but they are not enough.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Pretty sure this isn't gonna happen. Meereen, Astapor and Yunkai are falling apart for a reason. It's meant to show that Dany can't really succeed with what she's doing and needs a major change of tactics.

Exactly. Dany has the "qualities", but she needs an advisor as Tyrion to help her. That's what the show was saying. Someone that knows Westeros and can help her. No surprise that he'll be the one left in charge of Meereen in the show. Nail in the coffin of Ser Grandfather.

[Stag_legion]

D&D certainly think she is a revolutionary.

Dany included the Targaryen name on the wheel.

Actually she didn't impose Westerosi values on Meereen, as there is no feudal system there.

Stannis? Stannis is the most anti-change out of all the contenders. Do you honestly think Stannis would change the system at all? Really?

D & D say a lot stupid crap that is inconsistent.

They tried to say that renly was an educated man and a populist, but he wasn't in the books, he refused to read books and he was pretty elitist.

Dany banning slavery would be revolutionary if she was raised in slavers bay and was part of that culture, she is not. a revolution is change from within, not from without. It wouldn't be revolutionary for americans to go to a country with a monarchy and setup a republican system.

Stannis does want to change some stuff, he clearly wants to move closer to an absolute monarchy and he is fine with shitting on noble houses and promoting from lower ranks. But neither stannis nor myself have claimed that he wants to break the wheel like dany claimed. He still wants to be a monarch and he says so.

[Stag_legion]

Please tell me you are talking about Davos and not Stannis. The Baratheons are about as far from lower castes as you can get.

Duh it was Davos. ;)

[Tharvot]

How do you interpret Daenerys's comment to Tyrion? Is she going to go to Westeros and slaughter every leading noble family? And then perhaps elevate smaller houses that bend to her into their places?

How else do you break the wheel?

At this point, I find it far more likely that when Dany breaks the wheel, it comes crashing down on her and kills her.

[hallam]

What's funny to me is her breaking the wheel and Roose and Ramsay talking about being from the North and being able to withstand a siege is completely insignificant compared to what's going on North of the wall.

So if we ignore the posts complaining about the obvious plot holes and continuity errors in the episodes yet to come, it seems to me that Tyrion might actually succeed in persuading Danny that Westeros can wait, she can and should stay in Meereen to consolidate her power there before attempting to enlarge her territory further.

What will bring Danny over the sea is the news of the other having returned.

[Chinoiserie]

Poeple say that Dany is not a revolutionary but what it ending slavery for no other reason than it is right nothing but revolutionary. Why it is so strange she could wish to change Westeros as well. But her true fight will be against WWs in any case, the reforms will be if she survives.

[kimim]

France did it. The UK did not. In the French revolution, the entire nobility were beheaded at the guillotine in a few short years. The UK built a parliamentary system to be more inclusive (gradually).

Both are relatively successful democracies.

French society was not in stasis from Charlemagne to the 18th century, only to change, overnight, in the revolution. It was a long process for them, too. btw, England had its revolutions as well. The Glorious Revolution is bloodless only in myth.

[Stag_legion]

French society was not in stasis from Charlemagne to the 18th century, only to change, overnight, in the revolution. It was a long process for them, too. btw, England had its revolutions as well. The Glorious Revolution is bloodless only in myth.

This, big societal changes only happen over time.

[bb1180]

D & D say a lot stupid crap that is inconsistent.

Like I said a few pages back, you have to be careful taking what they say at face value. Anything they say for something like that 'inside the episode' youtube video is carefully parsed to give a certain perception of the characters and events in question. They may be playing it straight, but then again, maybe not. They're certainly not going to reveal plot twists that way.

[Gogossos]

And we have learned that good intentions are not enough. They are a start, but they are not enough.

They are enough for the person with the intention though, it's up to society as a whole to decide whether to embrace the change or not. We must remember none of this revolutionary stuff will take place in Dany's lifetime. All she can do is be the catalyst for the kind of change she wants. Like Cersei and the Faith Militant, whatever she did can't be undone, not just like that. And if Dany has enough dragons to at least start her own thing, then bequeath to her child/ren the system and the dragons to continue the reforms ... But all this would be beyond the show/books timeline anyway.

[OldGimletEye]

They are enough for the person with the intention though, it's up to society as a whole to decide whether to embrace the change or not. We must remember none of this revolutionary stuff will take place in Dany's lifetime. All she can do is be the catalyst for the kind of change she wants. Like Cersei and the Faith Militant, whatever she did can't be undone, not just like that. And if Dany has enough dragons to at least start her own thing, then bequeath to her child/ren the system and the dragons to continue the reforms ... But all this would be beyond the show/books timeline anyway.

Nope. Sorry, it isn't that simple. Dany found that out in Astapor. Sure society has to be willing to change. But, a policy maker has to understand where society is at.

And her Dragons can be a two edged sword. One of her successors could use those same dragons to undue her attempted reforms. Dany's ardent fans put their faith in dragons, I put them institutions. Perhaps that's why I fight with them so much.

[Brother Walfrid]

Tyrion listed Lannister, Baratheon, Tyrell, Stark. but didnt mention Martell.

Why dont the writers want us to know if he thinks they would support her or not?

[Dragon in the North]

The wheel is a metaphor for the shifting of power between the families of Westeros, within which the Targaryens were a part of. By breaking the wheel, she will break the shifting of power and consolidate Targaryen rule once and for all.

[Hodor's Dragon]

This, big societal changes only happen over time.

Maybe you could say "usually" happen over time or "tend to" happen over time, but as a sweeping generalization, this statement is very, very incorrect.

[OldGimletEye]

The wheel is a metaphor for the shifting of power between the families of Westeros, within which the Targaryens were a part of. By breaking the wheel, she will break the shifting of power and consolidate Targaryen rule once and for all.

So much for her revolutinary/reformist ideals then. LOL. And while she's at it, she'll probably brand all the families of RR criminals and traitors. Targaryen absolutism, it's coming to a neighboorhood near you.

[bb1180]

The wheel is a metaphor for the shifting of power between the families of Westeros, within which the Targaryens were a part of. By breaking the wheel, she will break the shifting of power and consolidate Targaryen rule once and for all.

That seems much more likely than the alternative view and more consistent with what we've seen from Dany as a ruler in Mereen.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Nope. Sorry, it isn't that simple. Dany found that out in Astapor. Sure society has to be willing to change. But, a policy maker has to understand where society is at.

And her Dragons can be a two edged sword. One of her successors could use those same dragons to undue her attempted reforms. Dany's ardent fans put their faith in dragons, I put them institutions. Perhaps that's why I fight with them so much.

Well, there's certainly an argument to be made that her understanding of slaving society in Astapor was quite sufficient to serve as a proper basis for her to "break the wheel." Sure, things haven't turned out all peachy-keen, and it would have been great if she had known a lot more about local situations at the time the choice was presented to her. But she didn't.

There was a horrible tragedy going on, and one that had apparently been going on, mostly unchanged, for thousands of years, and that bid fair to go on thousands of years more. Daenerys had one chance, one moment where she had to either act or decline to act, with no chance, ever, to revisit her decision.

These were her choices: (1) end this right now, or (2) allow it to go on indefinitely. There was no 3rd choice of calling in a panel of experts to propose a multi-faceted plan for gradually releasing the slaves while educating slave-holders in alternate job skills. It was Act or Don't Act.

Of course, you don't have to agree with me that she made the right choice, but while I'm usually a very open-minded person who likes to hear and consider opposing views, in this situation I'm simply not open to any argument that she should have left the system where it was. That's just wrong, and not even worth discussing IMO. Go ahead and believe it if you like, but don't bother trying to convince me.

[Dragon_Rider]

That seems much more likely than the alternative view and more consistent with what we've seen from Dany as a ruler in Mereen.

How so? She seems to be softening up slightly, not getting more and more absolutist. She reopened the pits, married Hizdar, banished Jorah instead of killing him, and listened to Tyrion instead of killing him immediately. She may be stubborn and naive but I don't think she's completely impervious to reason.