I'm Going to Break the Wheel

[Fragile Bird]

After reading through all the posts so far, I think I go back to my OP. Dany specifically mentions the rulers of each of the separate areas of Westeros. She's going to break them, but she has to replace them. Lengthwise, Westeros from the wall down to Dorne is about the length of distance from the US-Canada border down to South America.

http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/2012/06/size-of-westeros-compared-to-usa.html

She needs governors in the old seven kingdoms. She's going to destroy the old hierarchy, but she must replace it with something else. If she doesn't, she runs the risk of the forces of the High Sparrow becoming a powerhouse that will inevitably clash with the ruler, just as is happening now with Cersei. Dany's Targaryen forefathers had rising problems with them until they were stripped of their power.

There is no public education system in Westeros. Even many of the lords can't read, they rely on their maesters. There is no parliament, no elections. There is no possibility of any 'democratic reform'. There is no way to spread the news of change and reform except through the maesters, or friendly lords.

She wants to break the people who rose up against her family.

[ADanceWithCats]

She's not smart enough or experienced enough for that kind of idea, though. Tyrion seems like the kind of person who could think up a compromise political system between the noble houses and the common people (e.g. Estates-General you mentioned).

Well, that's exactly it. If you think about them as a team, Dany is a visionary idealist - she sees that things are broken and need to be fixed. She's not yet cynical enough to assume that things won't work, and so she "needn't even try". Tyrion is the realist, and is also good at translating broad plans into specifics. e: But he needs a visionary to inspire him, otherwise he can get depressed. It's the way good teams work. :)

I'm assuming that they will discuss things, talk them over, and a tripartite system will be the result. But that's my exact point - you can't demand it yet right now. Right now, it's at the "seed of an idea", not "concrete plan with steps" stage. And frankly, that's fine, because, once again, that's the first episode that really mentioned that idea, which hasn't even appeared in the books yet, either.

I simply don't understand the impatience.

[Dragon_Rider]

I understand D & D want us to like St. Tyrion and Dany. But portraying Dany as Dany "Che Guevara" Stormborn, founder of the Westerosi People's Army and the Union Of Westerosi Socialist Republics is dumb.

Martin has said that he has been aggravated by reading works in the medieval fantasy genre where the characters have the mindset of the people of the 20th Century. With perhaps the exception of Arya Stark, I think he has generally kept true to that principle. There is nothing about book!Dany's character that convincingly demonstrates she's a 20th Century Social Democrat or even a 19th Century Classic Liberal. Book!Dany is a monarchist at heart, which is fine given the culture she has grown up in. So D & D's "broken wheel speech" seems to be yet another character departure. Although, there is a good chance that the speech didn't really mean anything, other than to get a short term fist pumper in, as continuity isn't D & D's greatest attribute.

Also, it's a bit odd that show!Dany says she needs the nobility of Mereen to run the place, but then decides she doesn't, evidently, need the nobility of Westeros to run that place.

Also, her "break the wheel speech" seems exactly like something a 20 year old kid would say, with good intentions, but without the slightest clue about realistic constraints or how to implement those intentions.

Also, I don't want to come off here like some arch-conservative defending the feudal system of Westeros as I think it's abhorrent. But, just eliminating it without a viable and well thought out alternative seems like a recipe for one giant cluster fuck.

Wasn't that the point Tyrion was making in their conversation? He was pointing out how naive her ideas and "plans" were. I figured there'll be more of that eye rolling from Tyrion about her grand schemes.

[intheswamp]

Daenerys is a dictator. She rules by fear. You don't do what she likes, she'll feed you to her dragons or crucify you. Hell, she does it sometimes even if she isn't sure you did anything wrong or not. She thinks it is her birthright to rule the Seven Kingdoms. She'll conquer the kingdoms with swords and dragonfire and rule as Queen.

[ADanceWithCats]

France did it. The UK did not. In the French revolution, the entire nobility were beheaded at the guillotine in a few short years. The UK built a parliamentary system to be more inclusive (gradually).

Both are relatively successful democracies.

Before the French revolution, France had the Estates-General as a legislative body for several hundred years, though.

[Stag_legion]

Daenarys isn't some revolutionary, she's just as part of the "wheel" as any other, she just likes to give delusional speeches every once in a while. If she really wanted to better the life the common people she should have gone for a less opulent lifestyle and distributed wealth more reasonably.

Even her banning of slavery is just imposing her own cultural values (westerosi), though in this case that could have been a good thing, but its not like she improved the life former slaves all that much, hence why some decided to go back into slavery.

So far the only guy who has changed thing a bit has been stannis, he's promoted from the lower castes and he typically lives relatively modestly for a guy in his position. Still even stannis could not give a speech like dany's with a straight face.

[Mladen]

There have to be more than 12 of them. They may be the originals who woke from ice after 8,000 years since the last long night, but they've been turning Craster's boys, and he probably wasn't the only person north of the wall giving them sacrifices. There are probably hundreds by now at least, and hundreds of thousands of wights they control.

In the show canon, most likely. But then again, we have 3 grown-up dragons. Again, unless we are about to discover that Others possess some cool ice magic that can kill dragons, plus, IDK, ice dragons, it would be too easy. Neither wights nor Others can fly. It would be Harrenhal all over again.

[OldGimletEye]

France did it.

Uh, not exactly. Napoleon largely replaced the old Nobility with his own. And there was other French monarchs during the 19th century. And France was hardly stable in the 19th Century compared to England.

[bb1180]

There is no public education system in Westeros. Even many of the lords can't read, they rely on their maesters. There is no parliament, no elections. There is no possibility of any 'democratic reform'. There is no way to spread the news of change and reform except through the maesters, or friendly lords.

She want to break the people who rose up against her family.

Its not only that, but the ruler in question here sets herself above everyone else. Dany is, in the best case scenario, a benevolent dictator. She has set herself as the ultimate, unquestioned authority in Mereen. And her goal is to be the same thing in Westeros. Maybe that's good, maybe that's bad, but there's little indication that this character is any different than any other ruler of Westeros in the way she sees herself and her entitlement to power. She does not see herself as some first among equals, but as someone who has a fundamental right to rule because of who she is.

[Dragon_Rider]

Uh, not exactly. Napoleon largely replaced the old Nobility with his own. And there was other French monarchs during the 19th century. And France was hardly stable in the 19th Century compared to England.

I didn't say the results were pretty, but eventually even France became a stable democratic society. Yes there was Napoleon and the various republics that came and went, but it wasn't a total clusterfuck (well, maybe the Reign of Terror might count as such).

[born amidst snow and corn]

In the show i think dany will get most of her westerosi people from two men who are not from a great house:littlefinger(still likely in the books) and the high sparrow( that in the books his favorite will probbably be aegon).

littlefinger will definitely be the winner of the battle of winterfell(if sansa won't backstab him) and when he'll march south and rally the riverlands(for himself sweetrobin,sansa and prabbably even moonboy for all i know) he will have the largest army in westeros when dany lands and i assume both of them will be single.

in the show the high sparrow shares dany's opinion on feudalism and when aegon's not around and the remaining baratheons are either bastards or heathens dany is his last option for a monarch and by the time she'll land the faith militant will have most of the power in kings landing and if he wants her as queen he can simply open the gates for her and coronate her as queen of the seven kingdoms and littlefinger as prince consort and protector of the realm.

after she's queen the lannisters and tyrells will be out of power, the starks tullys and arryn at the hands of littlefinger and aeron already plans on making the iron islands an elective monarchy as it was before the greyirons.

the only region left is dorne which technically is not rules by a lord paramount but a prince/ss and they never were truly part of the seven kingdoms but an independent state who is sworn to the iron throne.

[OldGimletEye]

I didn't say the results were pretty, but eventually even France became a stable democratic society. Yes there was Napoleon and the various republics that came and went, but it wasn't a total clusterfuck (well, maybe the Reign of Terror might count as such).

In the long run, we're all dead.

[ADanceWithCats]

In the long run, we're all dead.

Exactly, which is why it's worth at least trying to pick up a cause and fight for it before that. Did you know what a complete asshole Steve Jobs was? Sometimes it takes a person with a huge ego and a total inability to tolerate dissent to start something new.

[ArabellaVidal]

After that whole conversation with Tyrion, this was a line which showed that whatever he said never got through to her. Either that or the writers didn't think it through.

[Hodor's Dragon]

I understand D & D want us to like St. Tyrion and Dany. But portraying Dany as Dany "Che Guevara" Stormborn, founder of the Westerosi People's Army and the Union Of Westerosi Socialist Republics is dumb.

Martin has said that he has been aggravated by reading works in the medieval fantasy genre where the characters have the mindset of the people of the 20th Century. With perhaps the exception of Arya Stark, I think he has generally kept true to that principle. There is nothing about book!Dany's character that convincingly demonstrates she's a 20th Century Social Democrat or even a 19th Century Classic Liberal. Book!Dany is a monarchist at heart, which is fine given the culture she has grown up in. So D & D's "broken wheel speech" seems to be yet another character departure. Although, there is a good chance that the speech didn't really mean anything, other than to get a short term fist pumper in, as continuity isn't D & D's greatest attribute.

Also, it's a bit odd that show!Dany says she needs the nobility of Mereen to run the place, but then decides she doesn't, evidently, need the nobility of Westeros to run that place.

Also, her "break the wheel speech" seems exactly like something a 20 year old kid would say, with good intentions, but without the slightest clue about realistic constraints or how to implement those intentions.

Also, I don't want to come off here like some arch-conservative defending the feudal system of Westeros as I think it's abhorrent. But, just eliminating it without a viable and well thought out alternative seems like a recipe for one giant cluster fuck.

There are numerous indications in the book that Dany wants to rule benevolently, for the good of the people.

Obviously, it's not about political theory - I'm not sure there is such a thing in Planetos, and if there is, Dany is not one of its practitioners. But she's naturally soft-hearted (with a hot touch of temper thrown in), and seems to have somehow been inculcated with the idea that the role of a monarch is to give the people a good life. We do spend her chapters inside her head, so we don't have to guess. We hear her thinking frequently about wanting the best for her subjects.

[Dragon_Rider]

After that whole conversation with Tyrion, this was a line which showed that whatever he said never got through to her. Either that or the writers didn't think it through.

Clearly she wasn't convinced. I think it will take more than one conversation with Tyrion to change her mind, if she ever comes around.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I think there's an interesting discussion here that I agree - Book!Dany isn't entirely sure what she's supposed to do, and she at least has a lot to learn, if she is to be a good leader, and she is a monarchist, and she's clueless about her father.

The show, however, is an entirely different beast. They can't have complex characters, so they just eliminate whatever it is that made us discuss them in the first place - Dany and Tyrion's partnership is being set up as the forces of good coming together. Dany's putting her own family in the midst of it because Show!Dany understands her father was Mad, that she needs to rule for the people, and plans on finishing up with the privileges of the Monarchy, apparently. She's your usual Heroic figure from lesser fantasy works, which is sad. But after this episode, have no doubt - Dany and Tyrion will be heroes on the show, they will fight for good, and Dany's a leader that wants to change things for the better. A revolutionary in the 21th century way. Does it make sense? No. But well, Sansa's in Winterfell. Sense has left this season since Episode 1.

Edit: Also, she's apparently okay with working alongside a Lannister, so I'd bet there's no much support for an opposition between Show!Dany and the Show!Starks.

[Dany's Golden Fleece]

Daenarys isn't some revolutionary, she's just as part of the "wheel" as any other, she just likes to give delusional speeches every once in a while. If she really wanted to better the life the common people she should have gone for a less opulent lifestyle and distributed wealth more reasonably.

Even her banning of slavery is just imposing her own cultural values (westerosi), though in this case that could have been a good thing, but its not like she improved the life former slaves all that much, hence why some decided to go back into slavery.

So far the only guy who has changed thing a bit has been stannis, he's promoted from the lower castes and he typically lives relatively modestly for a guy in his position. Still even stannis could not give a speech like dany's with a straight face.

D&D certainly think she is a revolutionary.

Dany included the Targaryen name on the wheel.

Actually she didn't impose Westerosi values on Meereen, as there is no feudal system there.

Stannis? Stannis is the most anti-change out of all the contenders. Do you honestly think Stannis would change the system at all? Really?

[Stonehearted Snake]

So far the only guy who has changed thing a bit has been stannis, he's promoted from the lower castes and he typically lives relatively modestly for a guy in his position. Still even stannis could not give a speech like dany's with a straight face.

Please tell me you are talking about Davos and not Stannis. The Baratheons are about as far from lower castes as you can get.

[OldGimletEye]

Well, that's exactly it. If you think about them as a team, Dany is a visionary idealist - she sees that things are broken and need to be fixed. She's not yet cynical enough to assume that things won't work, and so she "needn't even try". Tyrion is the realist, and is also good at translating broad plans into specifics. e: But he needs a visionary to inspire him, otherwise he can get depressed. It's the way good teams work. :)

I'm assuming that they will discuss things, talk them over, and a tripartite system will be the result. But that's my exact point - you can't demand it yet right now. Right now, it's at the "seed of an idea", not "concrete plan with steps" stage. And frankly, that's fine, because, once again, that's the first episode that really mentioned that idea, which hasn't even appeared in the books yet, either.

I simply don't understand the impatience.

What you're suggesting here is perhaps plausible. But, it isn't exactly "breaking the wheel" is it?

So you can understand when Dany starts taking about "breaking the wheel" and that she doesn't need some allies among the nobility that some of us might have the reaction of "what in the fuck you are talking about Dany".

Exactly, which is why it's worth at least trying to pick up a cause and fight for it before that. Did you know what a complete asshole Steve Jobs was? Sometimes it takes a person with a huge ego and a total inability to tolerate dissent to start something new.

You totally missed the point on that one.