Towers of Midnight SPOILER THREAD

[Arataniello]

A couple of thoughts:

<snip>

5. Perhaps I just don't remember the previous books that well, but there seemed to be a lot of "Convenient Coupling" in this one. Faile is pissed at Berelain, wants her to do something to stop the rumors, and - look - Galad shows up, and he and Berelain are instantly in love. I can sort of buy the Moiraine-Thom marriage, although I don't remember her hinting anything that way.

<snip>

Berelain was connected to a man garbed in white way back in one of Min's visions. This is in LOC ch "Thorns" - "a man in white who will make her fall head over heels." So it is massively convenient, but has been on the cards for a long time.

Moiraine hinted back in tSR that she "knew the face of the man that she would marry" with much more certainty than Elayne knew the face of the man that SHE would marry. I can't remember if this was from a Min vision, or from Moiraine's trip through the Aelfinn/Eelfinn door in the Stone of Tear.

[OsRavan]

I'm not sure how 'bleak' the future is for anyone but the Aiel. The Seanchan were keeping the peace and not attacking anyone (including the WT and BT) until Rand's children/Aiel decided to trick everyone to go to war because they were bored. Tough shit to cry about something you caused for no reason.

And as it has been pointed out over and over and over in the books, for anyone that isn't a channeler, being part of the Seanchan is far better than being anything else so I fail to see this future as 'dark'.

I would call it pretty bleak. It implies 1) the white tower is destroyed and all the Aes Sedai characters (And *I* like a bunch including egwene) are dead. It means elayne has either left her throne to go... somewhere... with rand or is dead.

It means the two rivers is overrun and the characters or their descendants there (in theory Perrin could possibly be alive still) are dead.

It means that you have an empire fueled by mass slavery.

I mean i'm not going to pretend the aiel or the other nations are some utopian society. But at least they dont insalve vast segments of their population (not just the channlers remember) or torture/break people due to a genetic default. Or commit genocide.

Basically, the future she saw is only one step better than the dark one winning heh. If we are going to apply 21st century morals to it anyway. The Raven Empire is going to be about as nasty a non-dark one controlled empire can be.

And that's leaving aside them basically committing genocide on the Aiel. I mean they dont just beat or conquer them.... they virtually wipe them off the freaking face of the earth in that vision. Throw that in with the mass slavery and torture of people with a genetic difference to have the one-power.... not to mention in the oppressive nature of such a pyramid structure (hell they even have a secret police set up)... and... yeah. Lets hope that future can be avoided.

Though they were easily the most powerful chapters of the series.

Logically though, one would think that if she can go back and warn the other wise-ones it would be an easily avoidable future. I mean the Aiel can all just return to the three fold land right away. Or alternatively tell the white/black tower/elayne and not give the Ravens 20 years to build up before dealing with them.

It does answer the "remnant of remnant" bit though. Since logically... i was actually thinking this... even if the Aiel armies took massive losses at the last battle.. like 80%... the vast majority of their people are still safe back in the three fold line.

Nothing says the "breaking" has to happen the instant Rand wins the last battle. But it sounds like if you fast forward the same amount of time from this last battle as you did from the old last battle until the founding of the 10 nations... same length of time similar massive upheaval and change. Assuming the vision happens.

[Spring Bass]

And as it has been pointed out over and over and over in the books, for anyone that isn't a channeler, being part of the Seanchan is far better than being anything else so I fail to see this future as 'dark'.

No they aren't. Even aside from the issues with the damane, the Seanchan are a brutal, nearly totalitarian autocracy complete with slavery (in the form of the da'covale), and secret police equivalent.

EDIT: OsRaven beat me to it.

To be honest, I'd question whether any of the current nations (Seanchan included) would even survive another Breaking in their current form. The Seanchan Empire is already tearing itself apart in civil war back on their home continent, and the "lesser" disasters in the Third Age from 1000 years before and 2000 years before left both destroyed the existing nations.

[Poobah]

It does answer the "remnant of remnant" bit though. Since logically... i was actually thinking this... even if the Aiel armies took massive losses at the last battle.. like 80%... the vast majority of their people are still safe back in the three fold line.

Where did you get this from? AFAIK pretty much all the aiel in the waste left to follow Rand. More like 10% stayed behind, than 80%. Pretty much every single Aiel male who isn't a blacksmith is a warrior, and a lot of their women too.

[OsRavan]

im not going to pass myself off as an expert, but thats not the impression i've had. My impression has been that most of the men and wise ones left. And all the Shaido. But that the Aiel didnt like.... empty out of their homes and leave abandoned septs behind them across the waste.

Even if they left only 10 percent thats hardly a remnant of a remnant. Though again my impression has been its mostly the warriors who came over. And I doubt the old and children will be fighting in the last battle no matter where they are physically.

[Mack Kilimaro]

I like the Aiel for all their goofy humor and occasional weirdness, so for me, seeing them come to ruin in the new world is something I would consider a bleak future. The pieces should seem to be in place that they would not meet a bad end, particularly with Egwene's attempts to tie together the Aes Sedai, the Wise Ones and the Windfinders - cooperation and the sharing of knowledge in the Wheel of Time having generally been positive for all involved.

[Galactus]

The seanchan are pretty much the Ottomans as far as social structures go.

[Spring Bass]

I'm not particularly fond of the Fremen Aiel, but I despise the Seanchan. Randland, at least up to the point where they actually fight Tarmon Gaiden and need the extra manpower, would be vastly better off right now if the Seanchan had never showed up. You can lay a huge part of the chaos in Randland up to this point at their doorstep (and since they've largely seized areas that don't face a direct threat from the Blight, their manpower isn't doing much good right now versus the real threats).

[fionwe1987]

So the Seanchan destroy the Aiel and rule the continent? Freaking lame.

Also what benefits of that stupid Woman opposing LTT?

All the men going insane and breaking the world?

I very much doubt Saidar would have been tainted aswell, all she did was for the sake of thinking she could negoiate with the shadow, screw over the world.

I'm confused. Who wants to negotiate with the Shadow? That isn't true of Egwene or Latra Pose. Both are/were rabidly anti-Shadow.

As for saidar being tainted, it was hinted at in "Stryke at Shayol Ghul", and RJ later confirmed it as well. As did Rand, when he acknowledged the role the women played by opposing LTT's plan.

I loved Nynaeve in that scene after her absolutely disgusting testing. She pretty much told Egwene and the White Tower as an institution in its current form the fuck off. Nynaeve kicks ass, balefires shit, and sticks it to the (wo)man.

Agreed. It is so weird to see the Greens, the Blues and the Reds allying both on this issue and on trying to take power from Egwene, while it is the Browns, Whites, Greys and Yellows who stand up for Nynaeve and are Egwene's staunchest support in the Hall. I like that part. The leaders of the two power blocks in the Tower seem increasingly flatfooted in the face of people like Nynaeve and Egwene. That is the strongest sign that the Tower actually can change. Death to the status quo.

No comments on how many people are walking around with little letters from Verin, Fion? I need someone to discuss this book with 'cause I'm not going to wade through Dragonmount.

I liked it that after her moment of awesome in tGS, we see Verin failing with Mat. There's one city overrun by Trollocs due to Verin. Not that that lowers her in my eyes, completely. Just makes her more believable.

The others were Rand and Alanna, right? Rand's letter seemingly informed him that the Tower had kidnapped Mattin Stephaneos and Alsalam. What the hell did Alanna's say that made her go away in secret? It seems that Verin still moves people around, even though she's dead.

Also who was that woman who talked with Avi? Honestly I almost feel like it could be Verin, but IDK if that would work, I have absolutely no idea where in the chronology the Avi chapters take place, though I get the feeling that Avi left for the waste pretty early in TGS... idunno. Other candidates could be a real darkfriend pushing her towards the future she later sees in Rhuidean - it isn't clear if the woman forcing her to think on the Aiel's future is trying to influence her for good or ill really.

Verin is one possibility. My own idea is that this was Lanfear. The way the coals just appeared, and her stuff disappeared seem to make it clear this happened in a Dream. I think this was Lanfear, trying to lead Avi down a path that would pit her against Rand's plan (in case anyone missed it, Rand plans to make a demand from all the rulers in exchange for going to Shayol Ghul and fighting the DO. This price is likely to be the "Dragon's Peace" that Avi sees in her future. How likely is she to oppose it now? How will it affect Rand that she opposes his plan, as will, likely, Elayne?). I think Cyndane's final appearance in Rand's dream is also part of this plot, as is the idea of breaking the Seals, which Ishamael planted by swapping Herid Fel's books with his own.

With regards to Avi's heartrending vision of the future : what struck me most is that everyone is dead. All the main characters are dead. There's no mention of Avi, of Rand himself, of Egwene or Elayne (who could theoretically remain queen for the next 500 years), Tuon is dead. They're Dead Dave. Everybody is Dead Dave. Seems pretty much like a partial victory for the Shadow really, a broken future. Was really interested by the mention of the Black Tower continuing in that future as a force for good, albeit one which is broken as indeed the White Tower also is, by the Seanchan 'raven empire'.

Many of these people may die in the Last Battle itself. If you notice, Padra's (Avi's daughter) PoV is around 20 years after the Last Battle. By then, seemingly, Egwene, Elayne, Avi, Rand, etc. are all dead.

I also can't help but wonder if the vision is not a true vision but a test or divine intervention of some sort. Just as the vision of the Way of the Leaf was totally anathema to the chiefs and Wise Ones who went through it, this vision is to Aviendha: where the previous vision gave the Aiel toh because of their past and by doing so conferred onto them a meaningful purpose, this seems to be doing the exact same thing, except instead of it being because of what their ancestors did, it's now because of what their descendants will do. Also, I'd be interested to see what would happen if Rand were to walk through the glass columns now.

Could be. This could well be the inevitable future. Or maybe not...

Xanrn: I'm pretty sure that the vision doesn't have to come to pass. But I think it's a good way to kinda... show that even though we pretty much have known for the last decade and a half that Rand is certainly going to win the last battle... well, there could still be a bad ending regardless.

Not just regardless... Rand's "Dragon's Peace", which ignored the Aiel captives in Seanchan hands, is at least partially responsible for what happens. And we know the Dragon's Peace will first rear its head very early in the next book, if Rand has his way...

Totally unrelated side thought: Verin was a brown, eg a librarian. Maaaybe the reason that Ishy and Graendal were convinced that Perrin would die was because, just as Ishy has messed with the Seanchan's prophecies of the dragon, to stick a spoke in the wheels of the light... maybe Verin messed with the dark prophecies?

I would love that, but I fail to see how she could have access to Ishamael's palace in the Blight. There was no Traveling for the bulk of her life, remember? But there is a chance that many of these Dark Prophesies were in Verin's book that's with Egwene now. Verin says she has documented the prophesies the Shadow believes in. Wonder if some of these will come up when Egwene meets Rand next.

And I repeat again: Where The Hell is Logain? Seriously unless Logain and Demandred have an EPIC SHOWDOWN next book I am going to be pissed. But Really if I meet Sanderson in the next few months (unlikely) I think I'll be unable to stop myself jumping up and down and screaming "Where the fuck is Demandred!" because damnit is Demmy and his total lack of presence ever aggravating.

What if... Demandred is Logain? :P

Finally: anyone else get the impression that the Seanchan white tower invasion force is going to conveniently hop out of their gateways at the Field of Merrilor just in time for Rand's little 'bring your own army' party?

Nah. Tuon plans to land the force in the WT basement. They will likely be met by powerful wards set to detect their entry.

Why would Perrin be flat footed by that? It does nothing at all to his argument. Her dream boils down to, "Ooo the Dark One being free is not a good thing", well no shit Sherlock. Again it is completely illogical to be against the breaking the seals plan as shown by the very simple logic Perrin says about it. Unless you are dealing with computer software you don't ever patch a patch if you want something to last. To argue against that is simply moronic.

But Egwene isn't saying "Don't ever break the Seals". She's saying wait till you have a plan for the DO before you do it. And as we see, Rand still doesn't have a plan. Min has an idea that using Callandor will be dangerous, but Rand still thinks its a risk worth taking, without any real idea what will happen.

And read the dream again. The crystal sphere clearly represents the Dark One's prison. If Breaking the Seals causes the sphere to crack, that means the prison itself gets shattered. That means the DO will be fully free as soon as Rand breaks the last seal. Which means, unless he has a plan for what to do at that time, the DO will simply destroy the world. So Egwene's opposition does make sense.

And Perrin's logic is terrible. It assumes that the final solution is to make another set of Seals. But that may not be the answer at all. Maybe Rand doesn't just have to patch the bore, but somehow make it as if it weren't there at all. Maybe that doesn't need the Seals removed.

Lets remember that the first time breaking the seals comes up, it is LTT madly ranting in Rand's head, wishing to break the seals so that everything would end. Rand himself considers it to be madness, as does Herid Fel, when asked.

Then, a Foresaken sends a Gholam to kill Herid Fel. Just before this, Fel supposedly sends a note saying "clear the rubble before rebuilding". Do we know this was actually Fel? No. Do we know that his books that were conveniently left behind were actually his? No. Are we sure those books weren't by Moridin, intended to confuse Rand? Again, we don't know.

Rand continues to think breaking the seals is crazy, until Min, after reading "Fel's" books, tells him that's what she thinks has to be done. At that point, Rand agrees. But by then, he has had Moridin in his head for a long time, without knowing of the connection. At that point, his head had been peppered with the taint, to a degree that even Nynaeve thinks she couldn't have healed it. The protecting light that is in Rand's brain now almost certainly wasn't there till the end of tGS, when he has his epiphany in Dragonmount.

What we know is, the Shadow wants the Seals broken. For long, they believed Rand would work to keep them safe. Yet, Taim gave Rand a Seal, and he's a Darkfriend, or maybe even Moridin. Does that sound like something the Shadow would do if they wanted to break the seals? Maybe they gave it to him knowing that there was a plan to convince him that the seals need to be broken.

There's also the final prophesy in ToM:

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

At least one interpretation of this is that the day Rand breaks the seals on the DO's prison, he will be freed and Perrin will die. And men will loose their very will.

Frankly, there's enough and more in the text to make me doubt breaking the seals is a great idea. Added to that, Egwene has her dream around the time Rand enters Tar Valon. Ta'veren? Never before has Egwene had a dream that becomes relevant around an hour after she has it. There's something afoot, and I think we'd be fools to dismiss Egwene's opposition as pointless and wrong. Especially given how Latra Pose's opposition played out...

I missed this. Fion, as Egwene keeps banging on about: she is the white tower.

That was Elaida. Egwene made no such claim.

She shielded him. She is responsible. Her failure to give a sensible order like "hm if we're going to deal with the Dragon Reborn then maybe we should act respectfully and non-aggressively towards him" shielding is overtly aggressive thing to do to someone. It's one step away from dragging him in in chains. Words are meaningless, if all the Aes Sedai bullshit over the past 12 volumes hasn't demonstrated that then I don't know what will. Actions are what matter. And what the tower did (and by extension what she did) was shield him, surround him with soldiers, and drag him before their leader for judgement.

She is responsible. And given that Rand was a potentially mad ta'veren who just showed up demanding an audience... why is shielding him a mistake? Till two days ago, the man was certifiably insane, and had actually balefired an entire fortress to kill one person! Egwene had no way of knowing Rand had found his inner peace. When she does see that, she does say that keeping him captive would make her no better than Elaida and allows him to go away.

[Slurktan]

But Egwene isn't saying "Don't ever break the Seals". She's saying wait till you have a plan for the DO before you do it. And as we see, Rand still doesn't have a plan. Min has an idea that using Callandor will be dangerous, but Rand still thinks its a risk worth taking, without any real idea what will happen.

He has a plan. It would be to do the same sealing he did himself(or one of the companions did) 3200 years earlier except this time with women and so links and so presumably in his mind, infinitely far stronger of a seal. Perhaps as much to erase the Bore to begin with.

And read the dream again. The crystal sphere clearly represents the Dark One's prison. If Breaking the Seals causes the sphere to crack, that means the prison itself gets shattered. That means the DO will be fully free as soon as Rand breaks the last seal. Which means, unless he has a plan for what to do at that time, the DO will simply destroy the world. So Egwene's opposition does make sense.

Cause that's what happened when the bore was created right? My God it's as if you have completely forgotten what happened in the Age of Legends. The Dark One was "free" for at least 10 fricken years before he got sealed again, this is known to even the "modern day" Aes Sedai. The world isn't going to end when he breaks the seals and Rand knows it because he fucking lived through it before and the Aes Sedai know it because of literature.

And Perrin's logic is terrible. It assumes that the final solution is to make another set of Seals. But that may not be the answer at all. Maybe Rand doesn't just have to patch the bore, but somehow make it as if it weren't there at all. Maybe that doesn't need the Seals removed.

This is so far removed from reality that I won't bother to refute. It's pretty much as daft as Egwene's opposition except you don't have the possible excuse of being compulsed. Seriously, think about what you said there and then try and think about how one goes and fixes broken things with faulty patches(or fixes) on them.

EDIT to add:

There's also the final prophesy in ToM:

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

At least one interpretation of this is that the day Rand breaks the seals on the DO's prison, he will be freed and Perrin will die. And men will loose their very will.

That interpretation is extremely faulty. It assumes that Perrin would be referred to twice by differing monikers in two lines in the same prophecy. The Broken Wolf is not Perrin and never will be.

To all the Seanchan haters,

It's absolutely ridiculous that you are applying modern day morals to such a society. Was the Roman Empire a "dark time" for its inhabitants? Only to the people living on the fringes. And it treated people far, far worse than the Seanchan do.

But oh yeah I forgot how noble the Aiel are even though they started the war. Poor them for tricking the compact of nations into attacking the Raven Empire and so bringing about their own demise. How fricking awful for them.

[Mack Kilimaro]

Slurktan, I really think you are missing the point people are trying to make about the Aiel vision. I don't think it is in dispute that in Aviendha's vision, her descendants set themselves on the path of ruin and in that sense they may deserve what is coming to them. It's sad if you've come to like the Aiel, with all the ji'e'toh hijinx and gai'shain and talking about soft wetlanders. Maybe you never really liked them. I don't know. But it's sad that those to follow after the people in the present story - those who are responsible for carrying on the traditions farther through history - come out the way that they do. For all that they have been through, I think they, the Aiel as a collective society that's molded itself into something functional out of the desolation after the Breaking of the World, earned a better fate than that.

Now, of course, what fate I think they have earned and what I would like to see happen with the Aiel are both irrelevant. Still, if you're confused why people would root for the present day Aiel over the present day Seanchan (or any future version of the Seanchan that still prominently features enslaved female channelers, with all individual characteristics essentially mind-raped from them in order to turn them into weapons), then I guess we don't have any common ground in this discussion.

[fionwe1987]

He has a plan.

No he does not. Read the book, for god's sake!

It would be to do the same sealing he did himself(or one of the companions did) 3200 years earlier except this time with women and so links and so presumably in his mind, infinitely far stronger of a seal. Perhaps as much to erase the Bore to begin with.

RJ, the Stryke at Shayol Ghul, and now Rand himself have said that saidin and saidar would both have been tainted if that had happened. I think I've stated this before. If you want to continue to ignore it and keep on with your fiction that Rand has a plan and this is it...

Cause that's what happened when the bore was created right? My God it's as if you have completely forgotten what happened in the Age of Legends. The Dark One was "free" for at least 10 fricken years before he got sealed again, this is known to even the "modern day" Aes Sedai. The world isn't going to end when he breaks the seals and Rand knows it because he fucking lived through it before and the Aes Sedai know it because of literature.

Dude... did you even read what I typed?

Crystal sphere= Dark One's prison.

Cracks on the Sphere= bore in the DO's prison

Ropes= seals.

When the ropes are cut, the sphere breaks apart. The cracks don't just begin to widen. In the AoL, that is what happened. There was a bore, and it was getting bigger. The whole bloody prison wasn't destroyed.

Egwene's dream seems to indicate that breaking the seals will destroy the prison. Which means complete freedom for the Dark One, which is an event that has never occurred before, not even in any previous turning of the Wheel. In the AoL, he was still imprisoned, but able to affect the world since there was a hole in that prison. He was never free.

This is so far removed from reality that I won't bother to refute. It's pretty much as daft as Egwene's opposition except you don't have the possible excuse of being compulsed. Seriously, think about what you said there and then try and think about how one goes and fixes broken things with faulty patches(or fixes) on them.

Okay...

There's a pretty wild horse that was being stabled in a stall. The horse keeps kicking the stall door till the lock begins to break, and the door is cracked as well. A few more kicks, and the door will break open. So, you push some stuff in the stables in front of the door. This isn't the permanent solution.

You know you need to nail some tough planks across the door to prevent the horse from escaping. Do you move away the furniture and do this, all the while risking that the horse will charge through at you, or will you move small pieces of the stuff blocking the door and nail a few planks at a time?

That interpretation is extremely faulty. It assumes that Perrin would be referred to twice by differing monikers in two lines in the same prophecy. The Broken Wolf is not Perrin and never will be.

Fine. Who is it then?

To all the Seanchan haters,

It's absolutely ridiculous that you are applying modern day morals to such a society. Was the Roman Empire a "dark time" for its inhabitants? Only to the people living on the fringes. And it treated people far, far worse than the Seanchan do.

No one is comparing the Seanchan to modern society. We're comparing them to other societies in the WoT world. While some aspects of their culture are better than places like Tear and Cairhein, their extreme hatred of channelers and the way they handle that makes them the worst society in that world.

But oh yeah I forgot how noble the Aiel are even though they started the war.

What war? The Aiel war? That wasn't even a war, for them. They came to kill a guy who killed the only sapling of the Tree of Life to make a chair. Even Moiriane thinks she can understand their cause, though she was the king's niece.

Poor them for tricking the compact of nations into attacking the Raven Empire and so bringing about their own demise. How fricking awful for them.

No, it isn't. But it sure as hell is awful for Aviendha. Who most of us happen to like. To see that all your people will be eradicated because your own descendents choose to give up their honor is sad, which is what people are responding to. And also, to the fact that the mistakes of these descendents leads to an entire people becoming extinct.

[alguien]

RJ, the Stryke at Shayol Ghul, and now Rand himself have said that saidin and saidar would both have been tainted if that had happened.

Um, no. This is speculation from both the Strike and Rand. The thought was that it would have gone two ways. Either he would have sealed it safely, or it would have infected both saidin and saidar.

As Rand says:

I was forced to do it without the help of the women. That was part of what led to disaster, though they may have been wise to deny me their strength.

So perhaps you should say MIGHT have.

Had Latra Posae joined Lew Therin's plan, it also might have averted the Breaking of the World. We don't know.

[Derfel Cadarn]

I agree it's not certain what would have happened if the women aes sedai had joined the circle. I think Rand has to break the seals, the trick will be containing the Dark One until the prison can be re-established. There's nothing to really support false books being planted in Herid's room. Herid points out in person that on each revolution of the wheel the DO's prison has to be fully repaired, not just patched up. It's been mooted that the Broken Wolf is Lan, that if he dies it could demoralise the Borderlanders. I don't think both the Blacksmith and Wolf refer to Perrin. A more plausible explanation mooted is that Jain Farstrider was the Broken Wolf.

Jain Farstrider's death was a bit sudden. Also, it's been a while, but wasn't he the old darkfriend from the Ebou Dar sections in earlier books? I'd assumed he was there to try and kill Mat at some point.

I liked Rand pointing out to Cadsuane that he's an aes sedai too. Hopefully when Egwene start's chuntering on about being the Amyrlin Seat he can point out that it's the Tamyrlin Seat and was an actual seat. I liked how Egwene woke up feeling quite smug about killing Mesana - only to find bodies lying on her floor.

I think Aviendha's visions aren't fixed. There'd be no point showing them to her. I think a key point is that Rand bowed to the Seanchan empress giving them the notion the Seanchan were superior. But the bowing to the Crystal throne was slipped into the Seanchan prophecies by Ishamael. If Rand can bend them to him rather than the opposite, that could help avert things. If they can persuade the Seanchan to give up their Aiel d'amane then the Aiel would have less reason to attack them. Bear in mind there was a planned book with Mat aiding Tuon in retaking the Seanchan homeland (I think?).

Mat bagging a badger. Lol.

It was interesting finally seeing people turned dark by a circle of 13. Rand's an idot for not dealing with the Black Tower as soon as he knew Taim was bad. He ordered Taim to make a weapon; now that weapon is increasingly in the hands of the shadow.

[Slick Mongoose]

I thought the broken wolf was Hopper.

And the interpretation of the sphere dream as being Rand breaking the seals ignores the 23 stars that shine on it. Where do they come in?

Also, doesn't Egwene dream things that will happen? If that is Rand breaking the seals, then he will break the seals. I'm fairly certain that she doesn't dream things that might happen.

She does have dreams of the nature if x, then y, but I don't think this was one of those.

[Poobah]

That was Elaida. Egwene made no such claim.

Egwene to Mesaana: "This is not about me. Egwene al'Vere is a child. But the Amyrlin is not. I may be young but the Seat is ancient. [...] The Amyrlin is the White Tower, and the White Tower will not bend. It defies you, Mesaana, and your lies."

Also I don't think that the woman that Avi meets is Lanfear, because of what Rand sees in his dream at the end of the book. Interestingly also when he sees her, he sees her recognisably as Mierin aka original body Lanfear. This whole thing poses interesting questions. I wonder if she might be needed in the end, since after all she was a member of the team which drilled the bore in the first place.

Crystal sphere= Dark One's prison.

Cracks on the Sphere= bore in the DO's prison

Ropes= seals.

When the ropes are cut, the sphere breaks apart. The cracks don't just begin to widen. In the AoL, that is what happened. There was a bore, and it was getting bigger. The whole bloody prison wasn't destroyed.

Egwene's dream seems to indicate that breaking the seals will destroy the prison. Which means complete freedom for the Dark One, which is an event that has never occurred before, not even in any previous turning of the Wheel. In the AoL, he was still imprisoned, but able to affect the world since there was a hole in that prison. He was never free.

I think you're misinterpreting the dream.

Also Egwene's dreams are the most uncertain of all prophecy. She herself says they are all 'might be' and not 'will be'. Let's look at Egwene's dreams from that night? I'll get to the crystal sphere in a bit.

-The thirteen towers, I think it's pretty clear are the Forsaken. The six remaining would be Graendal, Demandred, Ishmael, Mesaana, Lanfear and Moghedien. Right? The most interesting part of the dream is "Another tower shook and cracked, collapsing most of the way to the ground - but then, it recovered and grew tallest of all. At the end of the quake, six towers remained" Just added the last sentence there to make sure it's clear that the tower referred to is one of the six. So who does this refer to? Obviously not Mesaana, she's toast. Graendal has a very shaky time in this book. Ishmael got nearly killed twice and then very killed in the early books, but has risen to be nae'blis. Demandred has done absolutely, infuriatingly, who the fuck knows what, but I don't think this could be him since we just haven't seen him at all. Moghedien is mindtrapped. As is Cyndane, who we all believe to be Lanfear, but Lanfear recently appeared to Rand simply as Lanfear so who the fuck knows. I don't think Modhedien has the balls. So I'm going to go with Lanfear, Graendal and Ishmael as candidates. With a strong leaning, in fact, towards Lanfear.

-The baby eagles being eaten is obviously misinterpreted by Egwene, since Mesaana isn't the assassin, and the snake is not a symbol for the Seanchan or their empire. I'm wondering if this one might refer to events at the Black Tower. I also emboldened my first statement because I think it's important. Egwene let her own beliefs get in the way of interpreting the dream and got it wrong.

-Finally we get to Rand hacking away at the ropes, lemme quote the full thing so we can analyse it:

"The vision changed. She saw an enormous sphere made out of the finest crystal. It sparkled in the light of twenty-three enormous stars, shining down on where it sat on a dark hilltop. There were cracks in it, and it was being held together by ropes.

There was Rand, walking up the hillside, holding a woodsman's axe. He reached the top and hefted the axe, then swung it at the ropes one at a time, chopping them free. The last one parted and the sphere began to break apart, the beautiful globe falling to pieces. Rand shook his head."

I do not think this has anything to do with the Dark One's prison and certainly doesn't mean what you and Egwene think it means for a number of reasons.

Firstly, Egwene initially has no idea what it means, and her reaction is to the dream which she supposes to be about Mesaana and not this one. If this dream were so important to the fate of the world then I think she would have felt it far more strongly, overwhelmingly so in fact.

Secondly, "twenty-three enormous stars" how does this relate to the Dark One's prison in any way? IIRC the patch on the bore was made with 7 of the hundred companions and LTT. If I had to pull out of my ass something relatively important that the number twenty-three relates to then I would say the government of the White Tower: 21 Sitters, the Amyrlin and the Keeper.

Thirdly, I do not think that it necessarily makes sense to think of the Dark One as imprisoned at all. I think it's an incorrect assumption made by many major characters. Everyone knows that the catechism the various two-rivers people use in EotW is incorret (this is a total paraphrase, but I'm certain it is something almost exactly to this effect): "the dark one and all the forsaken were imprisoned at shayol ghul at the moment of creation". I think the dark one is outside of the pattern, and the hole drilled by Lanfear as Mierin Sedai simply allows him to stick a finger and as he widens it a hand in to fuck around with the shit inside.

Fourth, the bore was open for over a century, at least this is what I recall from the world book - 'the fall' took around a century, during which time people slowly turned from their utopia under the subtle influence of the DO, since presumably the bore was initially pretty small. It was during that time that the game involving the pair of poisoned duelling daggers Aran'gar and Osan'gar was invented, iirc. Then after the war began for 10 more years. The DO has been slowly widening the bore, and he has been shown to be the only one capable of doing so. Regardless of whether you think he's imprisoned or just outside trying to get in so he can break it, he's shown to be the only one capable of widening the hole. If any amount of one power, or even true power based channelling could have widened it then I think it would have been done during the war of power, by the shadow.

Fifth, if the DO is imprisoned then that prison was created by the Creator. I don't believe that Rand as a single mortal has the power to destroy something directly created by the actual God of his universe. He's been given a lot of power by the pattern, but ultimately he is a part of creation. If it gets to the point where he actually is God incarnate then he should simply be able to will everything right.

Sixth, the seals are breaking anyway. Very soon they are all going to be broken.

Either they get broken when Rand is standing at Shayol Ghul ready to fight the last battle or they get broken when he's on a break; you can't exactly have him to to Shayol Ghul and camp out there. The place is not only extremely dangerous because it is the heart of the blight and so it presumably has an absolute tonne of guards and shadow creatures and whatnot but also it's the place where the DO is capable of directly manipulating reality. Rand has to be there to fight the Last Battle and if he isn't there when the final Seal breaks then the world is doomed. Since Rand can't loiter around there waiting for it to happen and he can't loiter around elsewhere waiting for it to happen then he has to go there and make it happen at a time of his choosing. This can be accomplished only by breaking the seals.

Finally, when the crystal sphere shatters nothing much happens, except that Rand shakes his head. One would think that a big darkness would come pouring out if this were the DO's prison breaking.

So what do I think it is? Not sure. I suggested that it might be the White Tower because I managed to asspull the number 23 being significant to the tower and I think I could twist everything else to fit too. That might work. Rand breaks the bonds that holds the rather broken tower together by getting people to question what it means to be Aes Sedai or something and they all fall apart. I wouldn't be sorry to see it go. Other suggestions? Find the number 23 and see where it goes. I don't quite think that there are 23 nations in the world unfortunately so that isn't going to work.

[fionwe1987]

Just wanted to point this out:

Originally Posted by Budapest Q&A - April 2003 Q: Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?

RJ: Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals. In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this. As I pointed out in something…I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul…there was a great division at the time – I don’t know if all of you have read it…or have none of you read it?

Qs: Yes, yes.

RJ: Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the….and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go. And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant” [it was actually the “Fateful Concord” – Terez], which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it. The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted. And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint. But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.

So yes, saidar would be tainted if it were used in the Sealing.

I'll reply to the rest later.

For now, remember that Egwene has never been wrong in her interpretation of dreams, and the Wise Ones clearly say that it is the Dreamers interpretation that matters. Which is why, even though Silviana thought Egwene's dream about the Raven striking a white flame meant the Shadow, what mattered was that to Egwene it meant the Seanchan, and that is what the Dream really meant.

And Egwene has gotten the interpretation of her dream after waking, before. Specifically, it isn't until she sees Gawyn in LoC that she correctly interprets one of her dreams to mean she will bond him.

[Daeric]

Which is why, even though Silviana thought Egwene's dream about the Raven striking a white flame meant the Shadow, what mattered was that to Egwene it meant the Seanchan, and that is what the Dream really meant.

Eladia thought her foretelling about being the greatest Amyrlin and making the Dragon Reborn tremble before the Amyrlin anger applied to her and we all know how that one turned out. Just because they interpet it that way doesn't mean it will end that way

[Slick Mongoose]

Do dreamers dreams always come true? Are there any dreams that have not?

Also, what happened to Alanna?

[fionwe1987]

Eladia thought her foretelling about being the greatest Amyrlin and making the Dragon Reborn tremble before the Amyrlin anger applied to her and we all know how that one turned out. Just because they interpet it that way doesn't mean it will end that way

Those are different Talents. Foretelling is a bunch of words that suddenly come to a channeler. The exact meaning of those words is up for grabs.

Dreams are different. You get a set of symbolic images in your dreams. They have no meaning in themselves. Instead, the symbols in the dreams represent you. Which is why the Wise One's say they cannot teach Egwene to interpret her dreams. What she sees in her dream will mean something different to her, and only she will have the right interpretation of them. As they say, either you know what it means or you don't. No one can tell you the meaning of your dream.