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[No Spoilers] EP207 Discussion

A Man Without Honor Game of Thrones HBO Spoiler Free No Spoilers EP207

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#1 Ran

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:56 PM

Non-spoiler discussion of the show goes here, for those who've not read the books or those who have but are happy to not actually reference them at all in discussion, taking each episode as it comes.

This topic should open automatically when the show begins airing.

#2 Karazax

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:03 AM

As a new member to the forums and non-reader I am finding some of the story lines confusing this season. I don't really understand what is going on with Jon Snow. The ranger said they had to kill the wildling girl and Jon volunteered to do it, but then he couldn't, so she temporarily got away. But I don't understand why he tied her up again and where he is going with her, when the other ranger said they didn't have the manpower or food to keep a prisoner? Won't the other Night's Watch just kill her if he finds them anyway? So I didn't really understand what his plan was there. I guess the wildling was trying to seduce him? Watching them walk thru the snow while she is trying to get him out of his pants was a bit boring. Didn't the girl say that they would kill any nights watch they caught and yeilding would just lead to torture before yeilding when the ranger asked her what would happen if he yielded? But the previews for next week look like they took him prisoner so maybe that will happen next, or maybe Jon will join them to escape death, or the other rangers rescue him. I guess in this show he could die too, but seems like a lot of rather boring story this season up north if that was to be his fate. But then again look at what happened to Bran and his brother.

We got to see magic reaching new levels of influence in the world. I don't mind magic in the story, but I do wonder why Stannis doesn't just send an army of smoke creatures to kill all his enemies, or why the bald guy who can make dozens of copies of himself doesn't just rule with that amount of power. Or why they let Jorah and Dany's other people live after the coup? I don't exactly understand why they need Dany to keep the dragons alve either for that matter. But she has been anoying this season anyway, so if she dies it might make the story better.

I love Tyrion though. His story line has been good and it looks like he is starting to bond with his sister some as they both recognize what Joffrey is. Besides the whole double incest thing, Cersei isn't that bad a person. Argueably Catelyn is worse since she started the whole war by kidnapping Tyrion with no proof beyond Littlefinger's word, and we know what that is worth now.

It looks like Sansa may get set up for marriage now that she is old enough, and Shae certainly took a big risk for her by threatening the other maid. I wonder why she is so loyal to Sansa? She doesn't seem to be that caring towards Tyrion. Perhaps she is a Stark spy or something? Sansa used to dream about Joffrey and now he is her nightmare. Too bad for her that Joffrey isn't more like Cersei, but instead has Jamie's disregard for human life.

Arya and Tywin had some more great scenes this week. The actors really do a great job and the visuals for the castle were pretty awesome. It looks like Tywin knows that Arya is a noble, but he hasn't asked her for a name yet, still calls her girl. I wonder if he knows exactly WHO she is. On the one hand there can't be that many potential noble girls out there on the run who are that age and basic physical description of Arya Stark and it seems that someone would have mentioned that she was missing to him by now. On the other hand you would think he would have her as a guarded prisoner if he knew she was a Stark, and not have her attending his strategy councils or bringing him his food and drink. I didn't really understand why Tywin had 20 of his own men hung, rather than tortured or something if he was trying to find out who the assasin is? I can't wait to see who her 3rd kill is going to be. There were a few times when she appeared to be eyeing Tywin up.

It looks like Robb has a little crush on the nurse despite his vow to wed back in season 1. We shall see what happens when they go to the Crag to accept it's surrender. I'm kind of surprised that a castle would surrender without a siege though, so perhaps it is a trap? Or is the Crag a village? I'm not sure I trust the nurse at this point.

You can certainly see where Joffrey got his evil characteristics from when we see the scene with Jamie killing his own cousin just on the off chance that the guard might slip into a position that would allow him to kill him, and escape. An escape that was short lived, and Catelyn has to step in to save Jamie from an early death in retaliation for his killing. Though the guard almost deserved his fate for his incompetance in going into the cell alone after Jamie had just killed his own cousin and turning his back on Jamie.

I didn't really understand what Catelyn was trying to get out of him when she went with the big warrior women to see him, but perhaps she finally got sick of his tongue and took vengeance for Ned with the sword she took. We can only hope.

Then the other dirt bag Theon chased down Bran and his brother and appears to have burned them. I don't blame them trying to escape, but I don't exactly understand why they didn't take horses. Bran had his own special saddle from earlier episodes and it seems that would have been much faster. I guess that is why they got caught, but we don't know what happened to Hodor or Osha yet. The Bran storyline was kind of boring to this point so I don't care that much about them being gone, though Theon is still a bastard for turning on the Starks that way.

We got to see the wolves some more, but it did make me think about where were the wolves when Theon took the castle? It seems like they are even bigger this season, and I would have thought the 2 of them would have protected them. I wonder if Theon killed them too?

Anyway, interesting episode even if some of it didn't make sense to me in it's execution. Not one of my favorite's, but still better than most shows on the TV these days.

#3 drigoly

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 12:10 PM

alright, i will try answering these questions witout giving spoilers,

The reason why Jon isn't letting Yvgritte go is because he is afraid that she will warn the wildlings of the nights watch, his plan is simply: find the other rangers > ? >profit, he doesn't realy know what he is gonna do with her.

Danys story is very deviated from the books, some of the changes realy don't make any sense, like you pointed out with the things pyat pree is able to do and Stannis, well he is Stannis, lets say it's complicated but he can't just produce a million of shadows, that would require a lot of fucking and would be considered unhonourably, so he can only use the shadows to take out certain enemys while beeing sure that there wouldn't be many witnesses...

I will not say anything about Cersei/Jaime, it's just impossible without giving spoilers /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

He hang his men, so others would be frighetend and speak, the plot between Arya/Tywin isn't in the books, so that's something nobody knows how it will turn out :/

The crag is the seat of House Westerling, Robb actualy besieged their castle in the books, looks like they just cut that part out because of financial reasons but plots involving the siege of the crag have been adopted to other Robb scenes in a very nice way /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

The guard was the son of Lord Karstark, who are distant relatives to the starks and Catelyn is aware of that, that if she kills Jaime, Cersei would kill Sansa/Arya who Catelyn thinks are both in the cutody of Cersei.

Bran/Rickon didn't take horses, because they make noise and because of Hodor who doesn't look like he can ride /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' /> but rewatch the Bran scenes, and listen carefully to the dialogue with Rickon! /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

#4 Fakko

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 01:09 PM

I too am somewhat confused about the goings on at Qarth. I thought Pyat Pree (sp?) was engaged in simple tricks not real magic. Pyat and Xaro clearly have conspired to rule, but to what end is unclear. Maybe they believe in Dany's mission, but then why didn't Xaro just buy her the ships she needs?

Cersei's conversations with Sansa and Tyrion humanized her somewhat. They also revealed that she is not a clueless power hungry bitch, but someone trying to make the best out of her very difficult, complicated and unhappy situation. She was almost motherly to Sansa.

Again, Theon displays how beyond his depth he is. Not sure what to do and making a series of poor choices that don't gain him favors with anyone on any side. He's cooked.

Tywin reveals he knows more about Arya than previously thought. He likes her and treats her well (almost fatherly), but pushes her back in line when she takes too much liberty. Still, what does he know and what does he suspect?

Robb continues to broadcast his impotence to everyone north of the wall. It's a good thing they made him a steward or he'd probably be dead already. His first "ranger outing" is a disaster. Man up Robb.

Jamie is a riddle. He comes off as very personable and engaging, but will slaughter anyone that provides him with an opportunity. These are the traits of a true sociopath, but is that what he really is? He seems to genuinely care for Tyrion and Cersei. Sociopaths only care about themselves; everyone else is a tool or a hindrance.

A good episode. Things are still gaining steam. I am very much looking forward to the next episode.




#5 Jennelyn

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 01:42 PM

Robb continues to broadcast his impotence to everyone north of the wall. It's a good thing they made him a steward or he'd probably be dead already. His first "ranger outing" is a disaster. Man up Robb.


You mean Jon Snow, right? (Robb is the King in the North battling in the Riverlands) Jon is young and green and has much to learn and he manages to get himself in over his head. He has the honor of Ned instilled in him and wants to do the right thing. He couldn't kill Ygritte because she's a woman and he's not an experienced killer on top of that. I believe he's only actually killed a wight, which is already dead. He's never been ranging before nor has he been north of the wall. I'd like to know why Quorin left him like that. Didn't seem smart.

As for Qarth, obviously Xaro and Pyatt Pree did indeed conspire. Xaro wanted to be king and the warlocks were able to steal Dany's dragons. Presumably it was to get her to come to the House of the Undying, but as Dany stated, her dragons are incredibly valuable. I imagine their intentions are selfish. They could care less about Dany's cause. They just want to use her. Pyatt has also demonstrated in this episode that his abilities are more than just simple parlor tricks. Or at the very least, he is able to used them to his advantage.

Edited to clarify Jon/Robb so you know which I'm talking about.

Edited by Jennelyn, 14 May 2012 - 01:49 PM.


#6 Karazax

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 01:55 PM

alright, i will try answering these questions witout giving spoilers,

The reason why Jon isn't letting Yvgritte go is because he is afraid that she will warn the wildlings of the nights watch, his plan is simply: find the other rangers > ? >profit, he doesn't realy know what he is gonna do with her.


Thanks for the reply. I can tell he doesn't know what he is going to do with her, I just don't understand why he volunteered to be the one to kill her if he couldn't/ had a problem with it, and why he doesn't kill her now since bringing her back to the rangers would just cause them to kill her anyway. I guess we will never know now that he is captured, but it didn't make alot of sense to me. It sure got a lot of screen time compared to some of the more interesting stories.





Danys story is very deviated from the books, some of the changes realy don't make any sense, like you pointed out with the things pyat pree is able to do and Stannis, well he is Stannis, lets say it's complicated but he can't just produce a million of shadows, that would require a lot of fucking and would be considered unhonourably, so he can only use the shadows to take out certain enemys while beeing sure that there wouldn't be many witnesses...


I see. Well the honor thing didn't seem to bother Stannis too much, I mean he sent the thing to kill his own brother after all. And it didn't seem like the smoke creature took very long from the time they had sex to the time it was "born". I guess an army yes would take a long time, but we don't know what happened to the first one, so if it is still under his command, he might as well make as many as he can, there doesn't seem to be any downside.

He hang his men, so others would be frighetend and speak, the plot between Arya/Tywin isn't in the books, so that's something nobody knows how it will turn out :/


I guess it just seems like torture would be more effective than killing 20 men and saying even 100 wouldn't be too few. Dead men don't say anything.

The crag is the seat of House Westerling, Robb actualy besieged their castle in the books, looks like they just cut that part out because of financial reasons but plots involving the siege of the crag have been adopted to other Robb scenes in a very nice way /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


Interesting, I wonder why they cut the siege out and didn't just have it play out off screen like all the other battles have?


The guard was the son of Lord Karstark, who are distant relatives to the starks and Catelyn is aware of that, that if she kills Jaime, Cersei would kill Sansa/Arya who Catelyn thinks are both in the cutody of Cersei.


Yeah I caught that part, I just didn't really get what the point of her trip to visit Jaime was for, she didn't seem to be questioning him or anything, just went there and listened to him insult her.

Bran/Rickon didn't take horses, because they make noise and because of Hodor who doesn't look like he can ride /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' /> but rewatch the Bran scenes, and listen carefully to the dialogue with Rickon! /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

I guess I must have missed something there then.

#7 Jennelyn

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 02:42 PM

Thanks for the reply. I can tell he doesn't know what he is going to do with her, I just don't understand why he volunteered to be the one to kill her if he couldn't/ had a problem with it, and why he doesn't kill her now since bringing her back to the rangers would just cause them to kill her anyway. I guess we will never know now that he is captured, but it didn't make alot of sense to me. It sure got a lot of screen time compared to some of the more interesting stories.


He always watched Ned do his own killing. The reason he hesitated was because she was a woman. He's not able to bring himself to kill her even though he knows he should.

I see. Well the honor thing didn't seem to bother Stannis too much, I mean he sent the thing to kill his own brother after all. And it didn't seem like the smoke creature took very long from the time they had sex to the time it was "born". I guess an army yes would take a long time, but we don't know what happened to the first one, so if it is still under his command, he might as well make as many as he can, there doesn't seem to be any downside.


His brother was trying to take a throne he feels in rightfully his. Also, don't assume that Stannis is fully aware of all of Melisandre's powers and how they work. He may not fully understand his own roll in his brother's death, but he still feels it's right since he had no claim to the throne. Also, the passage of time on the show may be deceiving. They are moving along from one element to the next and you don't always realize how much actual time has past. It's probably more than you think. None of the magic in this show should be thought of as easy. There is usually great effort involved.

Yeah I caught that part, I just didn't really get what the point of her trip to visit Jaime was for, she didn't seem to be questioning him or anything, just went there and listened to him insult her.


They cut that scene short and I'm sure will continue in the next episode. I'm sure you'll get a better idea of why she's there then. So far she is worried about weather or not he will be murdered which would render him a completely useless prisoner. She may have a plan, or why else would she order that guard to leave?

Edited by Jennelyn, 14 May 2012 - 02:44 PM.


#8 justashadow

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 04:35 PM

Would Jaime be important as a "hostage" rather than being killed?

I agree with Fakko about Cersei...it was nice to see her somewhat motherly towards Sansa for once. She showed some humanistice qualities for once. Perhaps because she won't be able to do that with her own daughter.

Theon's face was priceless at the end...I don't suspect he saw that coming but he looked pretty horrified. This maybe his undoing at Winterfell.

#9 Callum_S

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 06:13 PM

i was a little confussed with the 13 meeting when captain creepy face (or the undying guy sorry rubbish with names) stealing the dragon And the other guy talking about being king. did we know about that?

sorry if this is all be explained but my mind wonders a lot and i do pay attenion but things do slip my mind are i just plain miss it

#10 mafalda

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 08:24 PM

i was a little confussed with the 13 meeting when captain creepy face (or the undying guy sorry rubbish with names) stealing the dragon And the other guy talking about being king. did we know about that?

sorry if this is all be explained but my mind wonders a lot and i do pay attention but things do slip my mind are i just plain miss it


No, because this never happened in the books. The entire thing with Dany's dragons being stolen and her tiny khalasar being killed was never in there, so us bookers are just as confused as you watchers. Apparently they want to lure Dany into the House of the Undying (remember when captain creepy face, Pyat Pree, tells her during the party at Qarth to come visit the House of the Undying?) and then it will pick up from there.

#11 mafalda

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 08:26 PM

Would Jaime be important as a "hostage" rather than being killed?

I agree with Fakko about Cersei...it was nice to see her somewhat motherly towards Sansa for once. She showed some humanistice qualities for once. Perhaps because she won't be able to do that with her own daughter.

Theon's face was priceless at the end...I don't suspect he saw that coming but he looked pretty horrified. This maybe his undoing at Winterfell.


Jaime is very important as a hostage, since the Lannisters have Sansa (and Robb's camp also think they hold Arya). Therefore, should anything happen to Sansa, the Starks will make sure the same will happen to Jaime. Also, to hold the kingslayer himself, is the greatest bargaining tool.

#12 Callum_S

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:18 PM

No, because this never happened in the books. The entire thing with Dany's dragons being stolen and her tiny khalasar being killed was never in there, so us bookers are just as confused as you watchers. Apparently they want to lure Dany into the House of the Undying (remember when captain creepy face, Pyat Pree, tells her during the party at Qarth to come visit the House of the Undying?) and then it will pick up from there.

yes i do remeber that but i thought danys has just leaving but glad you reader are as lost hahaha and thanks

#13 boojam

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:45 PM



Ok, I missed it last week, I guess, at Harrenhal, what the hell became of Little Finger?

#14 Jennelyn

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:36 PM

i was a little confussed with the 13 meeting when captain creepy face (or the undying guy sorry rubbish with names) stealing the dragon And the other guy talking about being king. did we know about that?

sorry if this is all be explained but my mind wonders a lot and i do pay attenion but things do slip my mind are i just plain miss it


Yeah, this was an interesting twist readers are also scratching their heads about. As far as I can tell, Xaro is more ambitious than he was letting on and planned this apparent coup with Pyatt Pree. So now Xaro is king of Qarth instead of just being one of the 13 and Pyatt has Dany's dragons at the House of the Undying, an "invitation" to which she can no longer refuse. Beyond that, I guess we'll just wait and see.

Ok, I missed it last week, I guess, at Harrenhal, what the hell became of Little Finger?

He left after speaking to Tywin. My guess is he's headed back to King's Landing. He hasn't turned up again as of now.

#15 justashadow

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:40 PM

I thought Littlefinger was going to Highgarden..he hinted that the Lannisters needed the Tyrells.

#16 Buckwheat

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 04:53 AM

I see. Well the honor thing didn't seem to bother Stannis too much, I mean he sent the thing to kill his own brother after all. And it didn't seem like the smoke creature took very long from the time they had sex to the time it was "born". I guess an army yes would take a long time, but we don't know what happened to the first one, so if it is still under his command, he might as well make as many as he can, there doesn't seem to be any downside.

It is not only the honour thing, it is also that making shadowbabies is draining Stannis.

Not a spoiler about what happens next, only the explanation:
Spoiler

Edited by Buckwheat, 15 May 2012 - 04:53 AM.


#17 Fakko

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 08:13 AM

You mean Jon Snow, right? (Robb is the King in the North battling in the Riverlands) Jon is young and green and has much to learn and he manages to get himself in over his head.


(sigh)... Yes, thank you. I keep doing that. I am aware of who is who, but I keep writing Robb when I mean Jon Snow.

#18 Jennelyn

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 09:23 AM

I thought Littlefinger was going to Highgarden..he hinted that the Lannisters needed the Tyrells.


Yes, but he was just with the Tyrells at Renly's camp and they were heading to Highgarden then. Maybe he's already been there. If he goes all the way to Harrenhal and then all the way back to Highgarden, my is he doing a lot of traveling! The show wasn't very clear about where Renly was camped. It seemed to be some hybrid between Bitterbridge and Storm's End(minus the castle), but it's not really that easy to just pop in everywhere. There is distance and travel is slow, not that you can tell that from watching the TV show. Either way, he does seem to be doing some negotiating with the Tyrells/Lannisters and he'll appear again sooner or later. The show probably won't explain his path of travel.

#19 chico

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 04:41 PM

So, this is my first post. I have not read the books and have told my friends that have to keep their spoilers far away. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> So anything I put in here is pure speculation based on my own inferences from watching the show so far... /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

My thoughts on Ep 7:

Where the hell is Stannis? I've been under the impression that Renly's army was not too far from King's Landing. So now that Stannis has that army to add to his own, plus the ships he procured through his deal with the pirates... well, what's taking so long? (I know it's probably just an issue of the climax to the season and when to start showing us that battle, but I'm getting a little impatient.)

Robb, Robb, Robb. Come on man. Yes, the nurse is hot and all, but you can't just let your guard down like that. Your bannermen are watching and I'm getting the sense they are growing a little discontented with your decisions. I hope this isn't a foreshadow of him suffering the same fate as every other honorable character thus far...

Theon didn't kill the Stark boys. He might be conflicted, but those are his little brothers - at least emotionally. I think the giveaway was that he couldn't look at the crowd when the bodies were unveiled - he's been so proud & sure of himself and his decisions thus far, why would he look away now? My thinking is that it's the orphan boys that Bran & Luwin sent to the farm earlier this season (when Bran was listening to all the requests).

My theory on the boys - Bran probably told Osha to take them to the Wall. As far as he knows, Jon Snow (who he considers a brother) and his Uncle Benjen are at the Wall, so that's the safest place for them to go. We haven't been given any indication that anyone south of the Wall knows that the Night's Watch has headed north.

Oh Dany. Her pride, ego, and ambition are totally betraying her. I had thought much more highly of her before now. It seems obvious that her only play, at this point, is to marry Xaro. She has nothing to negotiate with anymore. I suspect that Xaro's "higher ambitions" are to eventually take over the whole island, not just Qarth, and with Dany, he can also take over Westeros. That would be quite a kingdom to rule over... and he's made sure to let us know that he came from nothing and is a completely made-man. I'm STILL smarting over those undead guys being way more magical than we previously thought - parlor tricks, my a$$!

I'm loving the exchanges between Tywin & Arya. I could watch them banter all day. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> I still don't think Tywin knows who she is, but he's teasing little bits of info out of her every time they talk - he at least knows she's nobility of some type now. Sooner or later her secret will be revealed though - if he finds out soon enough, he'll at least throw her in the brig. I think she'll escape though - probably with Jaqen. I don't think she'd use her 3rd name on Tywin - he hasn't really done anything to her and, really, he did save her - and if she hasn't used her 3rd name, then she can probably convince Jaqen to help her escape.

Catelyn. She can't kill Jamie - she needs him as much now as she ever did if she wants her daughters back. And I seriously doubt that him ragging on Ned's infidelity will do any more to her than it ever has in the past (plus, even though she won't admit it, she doesn't completely hate Jon Snow - he always acted like a big brother to her own children, so she can't just ignore that). I think she's going to cut off either a hand or a foot - maybe take his sword hand or take a foot so he can't try to escape so easily again. That might also convince the bannermen to leave Jamie alone for a bit.

I'm not sure I understand what's going on with Sansa/Shae or Sansa/Cersei. First, why would Shae risk herself by making a threat? That other maiden was going to tell Cersei, regardless. So why risk being put in a cell or killed? Tyrion told her to lie low. It's just another moment where I wonder if she's really royalty from another island and we just don't know it yet - she might think she can buy her way out of anything. (Unless I missed it - has she said anything since we met her in Tyrion's tent and she wouldn't play his game of Truth or Dare?) I also don't understand Sansa's reaction to bleeding. Was she under the impression that Joffrey wouldn't want her if she'd EVER bled before? Surely these people recognize puberty? Any why does Cersei continue to let Sansa think she'll marry Joffrey? There is no way that's going to happen.

I know there's a lot of characters to deal with this season, but I feel a little like some absences are too long. Where's Varys? Why has Littlefinger been so scarce? What ever happened to Roz? Have Margery & Loras made it home yet? Why do we continue to not see Joffrey in some episodes? He is the current King, after all.

#20 Fakko

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 06:41 PM

@chico

Her menstruation means she can now bear children and will soon begin doing so for Joffrey. Something she (understandably) wants to delay as long as possible.

She is betrothed to Joffrey. Short of dying beforehand (I too am a non-reader, but that will soon change) she will marry him I suspect.



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