362 replies to this topic

[Morrigan]

I didn't have a problem with them showing his romance with Jeyne on-screen rather than off. But that isn't what they've done, now is it. They made up a totally different story instead, and it unfortunately, it just. plain. sucks even when ignoring the books. Not only that, but I would go so far as to say that it goes completely against Robb's character.

Let's summarize here. Book-Robb is a boy of 15 (full of raging hormones); he took an injury at the Crag; he heard of his brothers's deaths and is grieving. During all that he is "comforted" by a woman in a moment of understandable weakness. After that happens, he feels honour-bound to marry her. Book-Robb is the son of Ned Stark, and just like Ned, he takes oaths and hononour seriously. He would have never deliberately broken his vow to the Freys like that, and when it does happen, he feels stupid and terrible and tries his hardest to make amends.

TV-Robb: is a man grown (I assume he's supposed to be 18-20?); he is not injured; he has not learned of Bran and Rickon's deaths and is not grieving. He's not in any sort of particular trouble. He even had his mother around to remind him of his duty and his oath to the Freys. Yet he's palling around with some sexy wench and clearly states he doesn't want to marry the Frey girl. He deliberately breaks his vow and doesn't even have second thoughts about it.

What made Robb sympathetic was because he was so much like Ned, and took his oath and his honour so seriously, and he was young and naive, and he actually married Jeyne because of his Ned-like honour as a Stark. There is none, and absolutely none of that in his story with Talissa. Not only is the story contrary to the spirit of the novel, but even judged by its own merit as TV, it's bad. It's a clichéd Hollywood romance with little believability to it.  And it takes away a lot of the tragedy of the Red Wedding since Robb pretty much has it coming.  Personally the Red Wedding made me upset because of Catelyn's suffering (losing her "last" son) and death more than Robb's death, but by giving more attention to Robb, the TV series could have changed that. Well, so much for that...

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just giving him essentially his own POV in the series is a huge break from the book. I wonder how much they (the writers) are even consulting with Martin this season.

[gogorath]

I hate to tell you, he deliberately broke his vows in the book as well.  Unless you are insinuating that Jeyne Westerling raped him?

[House Snow]

Yeah your reasoning makes no sense. Book Ned was supposedly in the exact same situation and kept his marriage with Catelyn.  Robb broke the vow in the book

[Reposado]

Morrigan, on 21 May 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

I didn't have a problem with them showing his romance with Jeyne on-screen rather than off. But that isn't what they've done, now is it. They made up a totally different story instead, and it unfortunately, it just. plain. sucks

and this is the problem. I wanted to see this story. I wanted to see the story of Robb in the west. But what they came up is just awful. On any show, this plotline would have been terrible.

For Robb, it is certainly against what the book Robb would have done. Show Robb just saw this hot girl on the battlefield and started pursuing her. Which, yknow, would have been fine. It's essentially a different story with many of the characters exhibiting many changes. Buuut, this story is just not good or interesting.

I'd have rather they changed the story to have Robb marry a Frey and not give us a red wedding than, shove this trite plotline at us

[Ramsay Gimp]

In most of the Robb/Talisa scenes I just tune them out and focus on the awesomeness of Roose Bolton

[Frumpus]

I don't know. I would actually sympatize with Robb less if he followed the same draconic lawful honor that got his father killed. Honor is not a good thing. It is an archaic concept that allows for no compassion, mercy, or humanity.

[Buckwheat]

I waited for their story too, and hoped it would keep this little info we get from the books and build on it. Unfortunately, it did not happen.

Manhole Eunuchsbane, on 21 May 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Just giving him essentially his own POV in the series is a huge break from the book. I wonder how much they (the writers) are even consulting with Martin this season.

What POV? There are no POVs, this is television, we see every character from the outside, not their internal tuoughts.

House Snow, on 21 May 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Yeah your reasoning makes no sense. Book Ned was supposedly in the exact same situation and kept his marriage with Catelyn.  Robb broke the vow in the book

Yes, Robb broke the vow in the book. When he was wounded and just learned that his brothers had been killed and he only had this shy, gentle, sweet girl around to keep him company and comfort him. He had no witty Volantene who is allowed to break all the social norms because the king has a crush on her.

What situation with Eddard are you talking about? About Cersei trying to seduce him in the Godswood?

Edited by Buckwheat, 21 May 2012 - 05:36 PM.

[Fantôme]

gogorath, on 21 May 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

I hate to tell you, he deliberately broke his vows in the book as well. Unless you are insinuating that Jeyne Westerling raped him?

House Snow, on 21 May 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Yeah your reasoning makes no sense. Book Ned was supposedly in the exact same situation and kept his marriage with Catelyn. Robb broke the vow in the book

That's not the point. Robb could have slept with Jeyne westerling and just left her but because of his Ned like honor he chose to protect her honor over his own.

And yes he broke his vows but breaking them consequently to a moment of very understandable weakness  at 15 after hearing his two baby brothers were executed by the person he considered a brother not to mention his own guilt in all that is extremely different from his reasons in the show. " I don't want to marry the Frey girl". Honestly!

Edited by Fantôme, 21 May 2012 - 06:33 PM.

[Jamie Lannister]

They've not so much "ruined Robb Stark" as they have "taken the character of Robb Stark in a very different direction to his book counterpart."

Which happens to be totally inferior. Which is quite a feat, considering Robb didn't even appear in more than one or two chapters of ACoK.

[mcb]

Morrigan, on 21 May 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

Yet he's palling around with some sexy wench and clearly states he doesn't want to marry the Frey girl. He deliberately breaks his vow and doesn't even have second thoughts about it.

What? No he didn't. In this quasi-medieval setting no one would care if he slept with other woman before the wedding. Few people would care if he slept with another woman after the wedding. He'll break his vow when he marries other woman. Which, in the book, was monumental, suicidal stupidity, and TV Robb won't beat that unless he weds a literal horse.

[Godswood]

Morrigan, on 21 May 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

He even had his mother around to remind him of his duty and his oath to the Freys

Keep in mind that he just found out that his mother basically committed treason against him and he really has no one else at the camp to lean on.  Also, an 18-20 year old guy is pretty much just as likely to fall prey to those raging hormones as a 15 year old would.

Edited by Godswood, 21 May 2012 - 06:02 PM.

[Mulled Wino]

I dont thinkthe tv series has ruined robb at all.  

Either way, its the same outcome, he breaks his vows.

[Faraday]

To say Robb has it coming...is surely a bit of a stretch? I don't think breaking an engagement means you should be murdered (Maybe just me, though). In the books and in the show it's his decision that leads to his downfall. The reasons in the book were very different - they were very believable for a 15 year old Robb but I don't think they work as well for a grown man. I dunno, the romance is terribly cheesy but I don't particularly hate it.

But yeah - he's not ruined. Don't agree at all.

[SerMixalot]

mcb, on 21 May 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

What? No he didn't. In this quasi-medieval setting no one would care if he slept with other woman before the wedding. Few people would care if he slept with another woman after the wedding. He'll break his vow when he marries other woman. Which, in the book, was monumental, suicidal stupidity, and TV Robb won't beat that unless he weds a literal horse.

of course he did just lecture his mother about betrayals and all, kind of makes his sleeping with Talisa, well sort of funny

[David Selig]

Morrigan, on 21 May 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

Let's summarize here. Book-Robb is a boy of 15 (full of raging hormones); he took an injury at the Crag; he heard of his brothers's deaths and is grieving. During all that he is "comforted" by a woman in a moment of understandable weakness. After that happens, he feels honour-bound to marry her. Book-Robb is the son of Ned Stark, and just like Ned, he takes oaths and hononour seriously. He would have never deliberately broken his vow to the Freys like that, and when it does happen, he feels stupid and terrible and tries his hardest to make amends.

Except that, you know, he did break the vow to the Freys deliberately. I am not talking about having sex with Jeyne - the Freys don't give a damn about this. I am talking about what he did after this. "He felt honor bound to marry her" is not a valid excuse in my book since surely it's more honorable to keep the vow he had already given to the Freys and it is by far the more responsible thing to do as a Lord.

Quote

What made Robb sympathetic was because he was so much like Ned, and took his oath and his honour so seriously, and he was young and naive, and he actually married Jeyne because of his Ned-like honour as a Stark.

I don't see it this way. For me the whole talk about Jeyne's honor was an excuse Robb used to justify his desire to marry the hot girl instead of someone he didn't know. Marrying a Frey was the more honorable course, or at least as honorable as marrying Jeyne. IMO Ned would have married the Frey girl and then arranged a decent marriage for Jeyne, if he was in Robb's position, since he was a really responsible guy.

Edited by David Selig, 21 May 2012 - 07:20 PM.

[Ser Hippie]

Sleeping with Jeyne wasn't Robb's betrayal, marrying her was. In the book it happens off-screen and may or may not come across as particularly convincing (I found it sort of silly, even for a 16ish year old and as David Selig points out, there's more than Jeyne's honor at stake, as even Robb realizes right away).

With Talisa, we still have an understandable reason for having sex - maybe not as emotionally dramatic as people would like, but still pretty reasonable and realistic in my mind. I'm curious to see whether they stick to the same "for her honor" excuse, though, or if they (for example) have the "news" about Bran and Rickon prompt him to seek solace with the woman he genuinely loves and is shown growing to love.

[House Snow]

I don't really understand the Bran death justification.  I know it gets done on TV a lot but I don't think sleeping and then marrying a girl you barely know when an immediate realtive dies  is any more rational then what the TV show has done.  In fact I usually cringe when stuff like that happens on TV shows.

And if you do think that is a justifiable reason well the wouldn't Neds death suffice.  I have the same issue with the Cat releasing Jaimie thing. I don't really see how added deaths in Bran and Rickon change her motivation for releasing Jaimie.  I kind of liked putting the immediate danger to Jaimie in as that seemed more convincing for a change of heart.  Where they made the mistake was not having Cat bring that up in her defense-they should have done that.

Edited by House Snow, 21 May 2012 - 07:17 PM.

[The Monkey]

mcb, on 21 May 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

What? No he didn't. In this quasi-medieval setting no one would care if he slept with other woman before the wedding. Few people would care if he slept with another woman after the wedding. He'll break his vow when he marries other woman. Which, in the book, was monumental, suicidal stupidity, and TV Robb won't beat that unless he weds a literal horse.

Very much this. Having sex with another woman before your marriage means fuck-all if you're a man, especially if you're at war and have no opportunity to marry your bride yet. Marrying her was his biggest mistake, I wonder how they will sell that one to the viewers.

Edited by The Monkey, 21 May 2012 - 07:20 PM.

[House Snow]

Also for what its worth I have a feeling the news on Bran's death is still going to be the impetus for Robb getting married.  It kind of would have made less sense if he hadn't already consumated the relationship. And Robb already arresting Cat gives the show a nice way of preventing her from stopping it.

Edited by House Snow, 21 May 2012 - 07:20 PM.