[Sample] Arianne I

[The BlackBear]

Personally, I think Waters, the Ironborn and probably Salladhor Saan eventually too, are being set up as a barrier to prevent the Redwynne fleet's return to the Narrow Sea in future. The Narrow Sea is now blocked off to the Iron Throne's naval forces for the rest of the series, with Manderly's fleet the largest Westerosi player in this arena from now on.

Or just weaken them enough to level the playing field. Or weaken Dany's army which would have to come by ship.

[ed Lannister]

I'm banking on the Marcher Lords. House Swann stayed back on the orders of Lord Swann. House Dondarrion likely stayed back b/c of Lord Beric. We just don't know who is leading the house at the moment. Rolland Storm is still in rebellion and claiming lordship of the Marches. This is one-third of the Stormlands that is untouched by war. As I said, if Connington is successful against the coming the Reach army, I think they will flock to his banner at Storm's End. These lords will need to see a major victory for them to believe he can take the realm. As to the remaining Stormland houses, I think they can be won over as well. Connington is known and has been very merciful. He also is likely to have many Highborn hostages by now.

rolland storm was left with a small garrison at dragonstone by stannis but loras tyrell bloody caputre of dragonstone probably has him as a prisoner or dead i think........ser philip foote the lord new lord of nightsong loyallties is to tommen....lord swann is notably a survivor i guess he will send his son donnel swann to declare for aegon while balon is in tommens camp(funny i remember jaime asking balon swann if it to came to defending tommen while his kin is in the other camp what he might do)..dont know where the house dondarrion will do but it quite an interesting scenario building up

[Ser Wun Wun]

But Daemon is the solid, dependable guy chosen by her Dad for his reliable loyality. Hardly the bad boy type. Pretty - probably (especicaly if eventually cast by Nina Gold). A boy? I don't know, he seemed sufficiently mature to me.

Learning from your mistakes after falling for the bad boy doesn't necessarily mean committing to a life of celibacy.

Daemon is a pretty boy:

When she found herself stealing glances at him, tall and gallant in the saddle, Arianne reminded herself that she was heir to Dorne, and him no more than her shield.

and then later:

"I could say the same of you." Arianne turned to gaze upon his face. A good face, she decided. The boy I knew has become a handsome man. His eyes were as blue as a desert sky, his hair the light brown of the sands they had just crossed. A close-cropped beard followed the thin of a strong jaw, but could not quite hide the dimples when he smiled. I always loved his smile.

She clearly thinks it is not a good idea to get with him, but she tries to seduce him later anyway. But it's not about a life of celibacy, it's about having the maturity to focus on the task at hand, which is literally deciding the future fate of Dorne (War or Dragons?). People have already pointed out how she refused to read the books on Targs that could have been helpful. Instead she spent a lot of the chapter mooning over Daemon and projecting paranoid fantasies onto why Viserys (her chance at being Queen of Westeros) died. This is remarkably similar to Dany's Meereen arc imo, where she neglected her duties as ruler of Meereen in favor of mooning over Daario and had her own struggles with paranoia.

[PatrickStormborn]

I think even with Quentyn's death he will soldier on for a time b/c he knows Arianne is not ready and for Trystane's sake. But time is definitely running out.

Dorne has lasted for thousands of years. They were the only kingdom to never fall to the dragons and they will survive them a second time around. The deserts are vast and full of places they can hide and employ guerilla warfare.

The difference this time is that Doran wants to be part of the Seven Kingdoms. His endgame is to rule Westeros beside a Targaryen, not to fight off the Targaryens and win independence for Dorne.

I see no legitimate reason that Sansa would even want to work with Dany. Sansa's role could be in a totally different direction for all we know. How and why should Sansa and Dany even meet? Who knows what Sansa's direction even is at this time. Srsly.

And i agree that Sansa and Dany being BFFs is a pretty lame idea.

Dany and Sansa share both interests and past experiences (believing themselves to be the last member of their family, being forcibly married, etc.), so I don't see how a friendship between them would be "pretty lame".

As I've said already, the idea is based on the foreshadowing that suggests Sansa will find herself involved in the dance of the dragons. And, as GRRM intended the dance to take up a whole book, it would be ridiculous to assume no Starks will be involved. I'd also be very surprised if the Vale doesn't play a part. And who is at the Vale? Sansa.

[Gogossos]

She clearly thinks it is not a good idea to get with him, but she tries to seduce him later anyway. But it's not about a life of celibacy, it's about having the maturity to focus on the task at hand, which is literally deciding the future fate of Dorne (War or Dragons?). People have already pointed out how she refused to read the books on Targs that could have been helpful. Instead she spent a lot of the chapter mooning over Daemon and projecting paranoid fantasies onto why Viserys (her chance at being Queen of Westeros) died. This is remarkably similar to Dany's Meereen arc imo, where she neglected her duties as ruler of Meereen in favor of mooning over Daario and had her own struggles with paranoia.

I think that's too harsh on both of them. Arianne is travelling, day and night, with an ex she still finds handsome. Other thoughts about her - like being more thoughtful, feeling chastised and indeed refusing the books - are legitimate but to say that she is not focused on the job at hand simply because she wanted a shag? C'mon. As for Dany, there is no way she can be labelled as deserting her duties when the failure to spend more time with her dragons was because of said duties. She even got married as part of her duty. Hell, even Barristan encourage her to let her councillors share her burden. Victarion often fucked his dusky woman after a battle, should we accuse him of neglecting his duty too?

[WinterWarrior]

do they show where Torturer's Deep is? From the way it is worded in the chapter it makes it sound like it is near the stepstones or at least somewhere in the Narrow Sea not far from Dorne, but I didn't see it anywhere on the maps.

I checked both the Westeros map and the The West map but cannot find it. I agree it seems to be near the Stepstones but is not on the maps.

[Alia of the knife]

Agreed. I don't get the Waters infatuation.

Personally, I think Waters, the Ironborn and probably Salladhor Saan eventually too, are being set up as a barrier to prevent the Redwynne fleet's return to the Narrow Sea in future. The Narrow Sea is now blocked off to the Iron Throne's naval forces for the rest of the series, with Manderly's fleet the largest Westerosi player in this arena from now on.

Speaking for myself, it's mostly tongue-in-cheek. :)

In terms of his real function in the story, certainly making off with some of Cersei's fleet takes it to a different level.

IMHO, something like this doesn't seem to happen overnight, so I think on some level, that yes, he is working for someone, whether it's Varys as a Targ. loyalist, or whether it's that his family is of Valaryan origin, his loyalties seemed to be solidified, because it seems he already knew something for him to make off with those ships, getting into position.

[Jon AS]

She clearly thinks it is not a good idea to get with him, but she tries to seduce him later anyway. But it's not about a life of celibacy, it's about having the maturity to focus on the task at hand, which is literally deciding the future fate of Dorne (War or Dragons?). People have already pointed out how she refused to read the books on Targs that could have been helpful. Instead she spent a lot of the chapter mooning over Daemon and projecting paranoid fantasies onto why Viserys (her chance at being Queen of Westeros) died. This is remarkably similar to Dany's Meereen arc imo, where she neglected her duties as ruler of Meereen in favor of mooning over Daario and had her own struggles with paranoia.

I think you're reading a bit much into that. It's not that sleeping with Daemon is a bad idea (he may be pretty, but he's apparently not of the "bad boy" persuasion), it's that he's too lowborn to be marriage material for her. She's also not "mooning" over him, she just occasionally notices his hotness. She makes one very clear pass at him and makes no further attempt at seduction.

Condemning her for not reading 300 year old history books is also a bit much, considering they would bear little relevance to whatever war involving dragons will be fought in the future. Not everyone is obsessed with dragons, and it's not like Arianne would be expected to command battles. She's got enough on her plate trying to figure out how to deal with Connington, Aegon and the Golden Company.

Lastly, Dany's failures in Meereen were not because of her fling with Daario. There is no vital action she did not take because of him (in fact, taking is callous, violent advice might have served her better in the short term than her conciliatory approach).

[The BlackBear]

IMHO, something like this doesn't seem to happen overnight, so I think on some level, that yes, he is working for someone, whether it's Varys as a Targ. loyalist, or whether it's that his family is of Valaryan origin, his loyalties seemed to be solidified, because it seems he already knew something for him to make off with those ships, getting into position.

Is it not impossible that it was just a stupid assignment by Cersei? Waters played to her attention winning him enemies in the Small Council, he loses her backing and bails, like the boy Cersei eventually realises he was all along. He has big ships and has deserted the crown, going pirate isn't a bad move in the circumstances, I'm not sure there is any overarching plan.

[Alia of the knife]

Is it not impossible that it was just a stupid assignment by Cersei? Waters played to her attention winning him enemies in the Small Council, he loses her backing and bails, like the boy Cersei eventually realises he was all along. He has big ships and has deserted the crown, going pirate isn't a bad move in the circumstances, I'm not sure there is any overarching plan.

I think it's definitely possible that Cersei made a stupid assigment.

I suppose my observation is that this would be such an undertaking, even if it's just three ships, (even Arianne was questioning how someone got these), he would have had to plan it, and work in conjunction with others, have plan B and a good cover story, again in conjunction with others if he got caught, which says to me it was premeditated.

[andrew_]

Who do we think this Pirate King is btw?

[Ice Turtle]

I don't think there's anything nefarious behind it, and I don't think it was a bad idea. First of all, Doran doesn't have a lot of choices - if he wants to send a high-level delegate to Rhaegar's alleged son. His goals from the start was the marry his daughter to a Targaryen King, and failing that, marry his son to a Targaryen Queen. Now, his eldest son is incommunicado (i.e., dead) in Essos and his youngest son is still just a boy. Arianne is smart, beautiful and understands her father's goals. If Aegon is the real thing, sending his beautiful unmarried daughter to treat with Rhaegar's son, presents an opportunity to cement a potential alliance through marriage. If Arianne suspects he is not the real thing, the worst that happens is she's kept as a guest (hostage). If Jon Con wants Doran's aid and alliance he wouldn't harm Arianne. Even if they have doubts about Aegon, he's a convenient foil to the the waning power of the Lannisters and could be useful as an ally.

He doesn't know for sure if he is Aegon, he could be some dangerous sellsword for all he knows. But my biggest problem isn't that he is sending Arianne, but who is going with her. Only three swords in times like these? She is the heir of Dorne, someone could easily kidnap her and force her to marry him for her claim, like Ramsay did with lady Hornwood. There was a reason why Cat and not Robb went to negotiate with Walder and Renly both, why Lannister's sent Littlefinger to Tyrells and so on. Arianne isn't even hiding her identity.

[Ser Wun Wun]

I think that's too harsh on both of them. Arianne is travelling, day and night, with an ex she still finds handsome. Other thoughts about her - like being more thoughtful, feeling chastised and indeed refusing the books - are legitimate but to say that she is not focused on the job at hand simply because she wanted a shag? C'mon. As for Dany, there is no way she can be labelled as deserting her duties when the failure to spend more time with her dragons was because of said duties. She even got married as part of her duty. Hell, even Barristan encourage her to let her councillors share her burden. Victarion often fucked his dusky woman after a battle, should we accuse him of neglecting his duty too?

Arianne's only been traveling for like 3 days, so she put away good sense and tried to give into her urges rather quickly I'd say. And sure, she could have both shagged Daemon and concentrated more on being prepared for the task before her...but she didn't did she? She only tried to do the one. Also, she knows getting with Daemon is a bad idea, she outright thinks this, but later she tries to get with him anyway. This is similar to what Dany did, she knew Daario was not a good idea, she did it anyway.

Regarding Dany, duty was not what kept her away from the dragons, it was a fear of what embracing them would mean about her: That she was a monster like them. She purposely avoided them, governing responsibilities had nothing to do with it. You might have a point about Dany not neglecting her duties as much as I may have inferred now that I think on it, however. She still could have done them better with some more concentration on the problems before her, rather then fantasizing about Daario so much, which was a form of escapism imo.

Condemning her for not reading 300 year old history books is also a bit much, considering they would bear little relevance to whatever war involving dragons will be fought in the future. Not everyone is obsessed with dragons, and it's not like Arianne would be expected to command battles. She's got enough on her plate trying to figure out how to deal with Connington, Aegon and the Golden Company.

Lastly, Dany's failures in Meereen were not because of her fling with Daario. There is no vital action she did not take because of him (in fact, taking is callous, violent advice might have served her better in the short term than her conciliatory approach).

A 2nd dance of the dragons is coming up, of course that book about warfare with dragons was relevant. But even if she didn't focus on the battles aspect, shouldn't she be learning as much about Targ history as possible?

I wasn't trying to say that Dany's failures in Meereen were because of Daario, if it came across that way then it is my mistake. IMO her relationship with Daario was symptom of the true problem, that Dany was still a girl at heart and not ready for the task of ruling. That is essentially what I believe about current Arianne. The difference between them is that I hope/think Dany will actually learn from her mistakes and "let the woman be born" unlike Arianne, who has not learned much from her mistakes imo. It also bears mentioning that Dany is only 16 and has these problems, whereas Arianne is like 23.

Also, I agree with you on the point that Dany would have been more successful if she had abandoned the conciliator approach, and more aggressively went about ruling.

[The BlackBear]

I suppose my observation is that this would be such an undertaking, even if it's just three ships, (even Arianne was questioning how someone got these), he would have had to plan it, and work in conjunction with others, have plan B and a good cover story, again in conjunction with others if he got caught, which says to me it was premeditated.

That was more because to build 3 deckers you need a lot of money and you need timber, neither of which are easy for pirates to get. If you have a crew who are from the dredges of KL including Rorge and Biter types inevitably, who are trained to be loyal to a captain who is Waters creature, it is in no way infeasible to launch the ships.

Who do we think this Pirate King is btw?

Aurane Waters probably, Lord of the Waters... (the guy Cersei made master of ships, then absconded with them) I still like the idea that they've been liberated from his hands, Saan is in that area, and he's a hell of a lot cleverer than anything we've seen Waters do. He always came across as apretty boy with a sharp tongue, and that's about it. But then maybe he was hiding something.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

But Daemon is the solid, dependable guy chosen by her Dad for his reliable loyality. Hardly the bad boy type.

Yeah, this was a big surprise to me. I had pegged my namesake as a bad boy type because of his first name - stupid of me, truly, but this is how such things work.

[Arkash]

But my biggest problem isn't that he is sending Arianne, but who is going with her. Only three swords in times like these? She is the heir of Dorne, someone could easily kidnap her and force her to marry him for her claim, like Ramsay did with lady Hornwood.

Same thoughts here !

I remember GRRM complaining that in the show, Robert went hunting with such a small party.

And now he does (at a somehow different scale but still) the same thing with Arianne... damn, she should be travelling with at least 50 men. Not to few to risk anything but not to much either to look like a threat... but seven... that is really far too low !

[andrew_]

That was more because to build 3 deckers you need a lot of money and you need timber, neither of which are easy for pirates to get. If you have a crew who are from the dredges of KL including Rorge and Biter types inevitably, who are trained to be loyal to a captain who is Waters creature, it is in no way infeasible to launch the ships.

Aurane Waters probably, Lord of the Waters... (the guy Cersei made master of ships, then absconded with them) I still like the idea that they've been liberated from his hands, Saan is in that area, and he's a hell of a lot cleverer than anything we've seen Waters do. He always came across as apretty boy with a sharp tongue, and that's about it. But then maybe he was hiding something.

It makes sense! I'm guessing he will have a larger part to play in the WoW

[The BlackBear]

And now he does (at a somehow different scale but still) the same thing with Arianne... damn, she should be travelling with at least 50 men. Not to few to risk anything but not to much either to look like a threat... but seven... that is really far too low !

There is a difference between a King going on a Royal hunt, with all the pomp that entails, and a secret envoy mission to ascertain whether or not Dorne will side with Aegon.

It's Doran's character that causes this, he did the same with Quentyn, send a very small party, just big enough to get the job done, you gain secrecy (something Doran is big on) but lose the flexibility to deal with problems encountered on the journey; which explicitly caused the problems and eventual death of Quentyn.

[Jon AS]

Arianne's only been traveling for like 3 days, so she put away good sense and tried to give into her urges rather quickly I'd say. And sure, she could have both shagged Daemon and concentrated more on being prepared for the task before her...but she didn't did she? She only tried to do the one. Also, she knows getting with Daemon is a bad idea, she outright thinks this, but later she tries to get with him anyway. This is similar to what Dany did, she knew Daario was not a good idea, she did it anyway.

"Give in to her urges"? As I said: she makes one pass at him, that's it. She spends lots of time thinking about how to tackle the tasks set before her and reflecting on the responsibility of it.

A 2nd dance of the dragons is coming up, of course that book about warfare with dragons was relevant. But even if she didn't focus on the battles aspect, shouldn't she be learning as much about Targ history as possible?

a. Arianne doesn't know everything we know

b. The upcoming war won't bear much of a resemblance of the original Targaryen invasion of Dorne

c. What information she could glean about the Targaryens from those books would have very little applicability: it involves members of that family 300 years dead who lived under completely different circumstances than the (alleged) Targaryens of Arianne's time

IMO her relationship with Daario was symptom of the true problem, that Dany was still a girl at heart and not ready for the task of ruling. That is essentially what I believe about current Arianne. The difference between them is that I hope/think Dany will actually learn from her mistakes and "let the woman be born" unlike Arianne, who has not learned much from her mistakes imo. It also bears mentioning that Dany is only 16 and has these problems, whereas Arianne is like 23.

Both Arianne and Dany are people who enjoy sex (I understand that's actually not that uncommon), but neither has let said enjoyment negatively interfere with their decisionmaking (Arianne is even quite willing to use her sexuality to her advantage).

"Being too distracted by sexual desire to do your job" to me does not look to be a big theme of the series. The most obsessed and deluded character when it comes to a sexual relationship in the books is Tyrion in A Clash of Kings, and yet he still manages to sucessfully prepare Kings Landing's defences. He suffers on a personal level for it, but that's an entirely different story.

Also, I agree with you on the point that Dany would have been more successful if she had abandoned the conciliator approach, and more aggressively went about ruling.

Short-term, maybe. Long-term? Who knows.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

He doesn't know for sure if he is Aegon, he could be some dangerous sellsword for all he knows. But my biggest problem isn't that he is sending Arianne, but who is going with her. Only three swords in times like these? She is the heir of Dorne, someone could easily kidnap her and force her to marry him for her claim, like Ramsay did with lady Hornwood. There was a reason why Cat and not Robb went to negotiate with Walder and Renly both, why Lannister's sent Littlefinger to Tyrells and so on. Arianne isn't even hiding her identity.

There is a difference between a King going on a Royal hunt, with all the pomp that entails, and a secret envoy mission to ascertain whether or not Dorne will side with Aegon.

It's Doran's character that causes this, he did the same with Quentyn, send a very small party, just big enough to get the job done, you gain secrecy (something Doran is big on) but lose the flexibility to deal with problems encountered on the journey; which explicitly caused the problems and eventual death of Quentyn.

I hope that a too-small party with too few guards doesn't cause a problem for Arianne on the same scale that it did for Quentyn. I doubt that Arianne is going to walk up to a dragon and go "kewl, I can tame it!" (Many people call Arianne impulsive, but Quentyn made a similarly impulsive decision that led to his death...) But, she could be held as a hostage or even forced into a marriage. While it's speculated that Arianne might choose to marry Aegon, could it be that he forces a marriage to her in order to cement Dorne to his side? Especially if he's a fake and doesn't get a dragon he's going to want to use every weapon at his disposal. If it turns out that Arianne and Dorne have allied themselves with a pretender, and Auntie Dany (undisputably a real Targ and undisputably the owner of a dragon) turns up on the back of a dragon with fire and blood on her mind, it won't end well for Dorne.

I also worry about the decision to bring along a headstrong teenager like Elia. It sounds like she's not used to hearing the word "no" (I get the feeling Oberyn and Ellaria spoilt their daughters). It might be that Elia is the one to do something dangerously foolish and get everyone in trouble.