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Bakker XV: Non-Man of Steel


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#1 Rhom

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 10:16 PM

Other thread was at 21 pages. Thought I'd stick in keeping with the summer blockbuster theme thread title.

I'm finishing up Long Price Quartet right now, but I'm putting some serious thought into a re-read of at the very least the Prince of Nothing trilogy as my next project. Honestly, I don't feel the need to go over Aspect Emperor books just yet; but I think a second go around would be good on the first books. So much of the first read through was dedicated to just trying to pick up names and places, being able to go back and grasp the concepts would be even more important in these books than in most fantasy I think.

#2 kuenjato

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 10:47 PM

I'm waiting on a re-read until TUC's publication date is announced. As it obviously won't be 2013, does anyone care to make predictions as to when it will emerge? I recall that RSB was 'finished' with the first draft but still editing/rewriting. I wish he hadn't released that extract quite so early, as it seems ages and ages ago w/out any subsequent update.

#3 lockesnow

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 11:18 PM

Perfect title to go with the combo featured by Andrew Sullivan today: an article, "what if superheroes were psychotic" and the short film Flying Man, with a very Kellhus-esque ubermensch.

http://dangerousmind..._if_superheroes

http://vimeo.com/69882318

#4 Triskan

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 11:18 PM

Excellent thread title.

On the pub. date, I'd been expressing skepticism and it holds. But I just have to say that RSB gets credit for having kept quite a nice timeline to this point.

I will be surprised if we get TUC in 2014, so I'm hoping for 2015 and won't be shocked with 2016. My Baysian prediction is 2015.

It just seems that two factors are at play. One is that clearly Bakker has more on his plate now, and that's understandable. The other is that even if this will never be a big selling series, he still clearly feels that a lot is at stake with this book.

I remain skeptical about getting the entire Second Apocalypse, but I'm sure we'll get this one. I look forward to it.

#5 Francis Buck

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 11:59 PM

Excellent thread title.

On the pub. date, I'd been expressing skepticism and it holds. But I just have to say that RSB gets credit for having kept quite a nice timeline to this point.

I will be surprised if we get TUC in 2014, so I'm hoping for 2015 and won't be shocked with 2016. My Baysian prediction is 2015.

It just seems that two factors are at play. One is that clearly Bakker has more on his plate now, and that's understandable. The other is that even if this will never be a big selling series, he still clearly feels that a lot is at stake with this book.

I remain skeptical about getting the entire Second Apocalypse, but I'm sure we'll get this one. I look forward to it.


It's kinda bizarre to me to think that we may get The Winds of Winter before The Unholy Consult. I do think, however, that regardless of his purely business-related successes, we will get the rest of the story one way or another. As a writer, Bakker doesn't strike me as the type who would refuse to release his work at this point unless he got sufficient monetary compensation. In the worst case scenario, he seems like the type of dude that would self-publish (or release it on Kindle or whatever) just so that his fans could see it completed. I think he genuinely wants to deliver the story he has created -- to the people that want it -- regardless of how he does so. It may take awhile, but I think he'll do it. I just can't see him saying, "Well, I won't really get paid for it, so I'm not going to bother". He's clearly dedicated and very passionate about this series. So yeah, one way or another, I think we'll see it played through.

Unfortunately, it would not at all shock me if the TSA series ended up being one of those pieces of art that didn't really get recognized for its greatness until years afterwards. It just has that feel to it. Anyone who has devoted time to reading it, and thinking about it, very clearly realizes the incredible shit RSB's doing here, in comparison to the genre at large, but at the same time it certainly isn't an easily marketable series by any means. As I've said before in other threads (or maybe even in this thread), he makes "dark, gritty fantasy" like GRRM or JB look like the fucking Powerpuff Girls in comparison, and yet he does it for legitimate story/character/setting-related reasons. It's not just shock value -- which I think Abercrombie and even occasionally GRRM stoop down to at times.

Edited by Francis Buck, 14 July 2013 - 01:41 AM.


#6 kuenjato

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 12:25 AM

I'm having a hard time understanding why this would be put off until 2015 to be published? Unlike GRRM, Lynch, Rothfuss et al., Bakker hasn't explicitly stated that he's had any problems with the writing, per se, just that the content on his blog is focusing on his blind brain blather so as to facilitate a return to PhD potential. I'd be surprised if it was delayed an additional year.

#7 Sci-2

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 12:31 AM

I'm having a hard time understanding why this would be put off until 2015 to be published? Unlike GRRM, Lynch, Rothfuss et al., Bakker hasn't explicitly stated that he's had any problems with the writing, per se, just that the content on his blog is focusing on his blind brain blather so as to facilitate a return to PhD potential. I'd be surprised if it was delayed an additional year.


Well Bakker has at least one kid and I believe is going back to finish his PhD and has to earn cash. So with all that combined it's hard to fit in time for polishing TUC, and Bakker is likely going to be very meticulous given the major revelations.

That said, IF Bakker wants to be a successful SFF writer he seems to be his own obstacle.

eta: But not due to the aforementioned issues.

Edited by Sci-2, 14 July 2013 - 12:43 AM.


#8 Francis Buck

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 12:43 AM

That said, IF Bakker wants to be a successful SFF writer he seems to be his own obstacle.


This is a good point as well. Aside from TSA, none of his works have been particularly...well, good. Although I do remember that one piece he was writing, I can't remember the exact name (Light, Time, Gravity? Some combination of that?) was very intriguing. Whatever happened with that? Was it completed? Did he attempt to publish it? It certainly caught my attention more than Disciple of the Dog.

#9 Sci-2

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 12:46 AM

This is a good point as well. Aside from TSA, none of his works have been particularly...well, good. Although I do remember that one piece he was writing, I can't remember the exact name (Light, Time, Gravity? Some combination of that?) was very intriguing. Whatever happened with that? Was it completed? Did he attempt to publish it? It certainly caught my attention more than Disciple of the Dog.


I wasn't even critiquing the rest of his oeuvre, I just compare him to other SFF midlisters.

I know he eschews Twiiter and Facebook, using his accounts for humor, but just comparing him to Valente, Bodard, Scalzi, you'd think he'd have more blog posts about the actually [actual] genre and certainly more published short fiction.

Edited by Sci-2, 14 July 2013 - 12:47 AM.


#10 Francis Buck

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 01:18 AM

Gotcha. He does seem a bit preoccupied with his own...I don't know, essays I guess? Thought-dumps on philosophy, aphorisms, and self-proclaimed psychobabble? (Not that they lack merit -- quite the opposite -- but as far as cultivating a wider audience, it does a bit of the opposite. I mean how many pure fantasy fans seek out RSB's website/blog, and then find Three Pound Brain...which is a perfectly fine blog in-and-of-itself, but it really does him no favors as far as building a greater fantasy audience goes. You need a rather specific set of interests (not to mention a notable devotion to the series) to really get into it, and perhaps the broadest of which is a liking for the fantasy genre, which should be the most basic thing to shoot for.

But seriously, what happened with that one story? Wasn't it kind of non-fiction? Is it on TPB? I just remember reading the first little bit and finding it quite interesting, and then never getting back to it. Was it completed? Was it complete from the beginning?

I remember one part standing out (and now that I'm thinking about it actually, I'm not even entirely certain it was from the piece in question or from TPB itself), about how Canada lacked a distinctive culture of its own, or something along those lines. I don't know. I'm going on the hunt for it now though.

#11 Madness

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 01:33 AM

+1 your earlier post, FB.

Also, I think Through the Brain Darkly is ironically going to be his most renowned work.

#12 Francis Buck

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 01:43 AM

+1 your earlier post, FB.

Also, I think Through the Brain Darkly is ironically going to be his most renowned work.


Huh, I've even never even heard of that as far as I remember. Is it non-fiction?

#13 Darzin

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 03:38 AM

:Light Time and Gravity is on the Three Pound Brain I believe, it was released on the internet completed, but I'm not sure where I read it.

#14 Calibandar

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 04:46 AM

Quote Madness:

I'll bite that bullet - he figures Serwa's Womb is going to sway the Nonmen, whatever their allegiances may be. Certainly, this is compounded by the possibility of Esmenet's Last Scion bloodline as Celmomas' true descendant.


That is interesting, you think him sending Serwa will sway the Nonmen to his side, because of what, her ability to conceive with a Nonman? Because of her ancestry?

Remind me again what you mean about Esmenet's bloodline? Had it to do with a possible Nonmen bloodline?

On the subject of re-reads, I have been thinking about starting a re-read of the books ( it's been years) this year, in anticipation of next year's TUC release. But like Kuenjato, I just need to hear that the next one is actually coming out on a certain date next year, before I start.

I also agree that there is no reason at this point to think it will not come out next year. Orbit's "predicted" date has been July 2014 for a long time. I'm sure that's just a guess, but in early May Pat told us that Scott was working on the last two chapters, and that it was unclear what the rewrite would entail. That was both encouraging and ambiguous. It's not a reason to assume the book will come out after Winds of Winter, which at best is going to be published in the second half of 2015 ( Martin recently made it clear that two years after the publication of ADWD, he has about 400 finished pages out of a projected 1,500 manuscript).

It's taking significantly longer than we thought for the book to come out, but between Wilshere's surprising update in Fall 2012 about the book's state and Pat's update in early May, it seems the book should be about done by now, not including rewrites.

The book could be finished any day now. I'm certainly checking his blog frequently for any news, how much longer can it be ? He's on a holiday period now, maybe it will be completed in the next two months. An update on Scott's own expectations would be the best thing to get, I'd prefer that over a sample chapter.

Edited by Calibandar, 14 July 2013 - 04:55 AM.


#15 Calibandar

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 04:50 AM

On another topic, these discussions are making me think I loved Prince of Nothing more than the first two books in AE. Mostly that is because we get to see so little of Kellhus now, missing his POV's just detracts a lot from the power of the story, but it's also other missing characters from PoN. Cnaiur, Conphas. I've found both Mimara and Sorweel rather bland really, and Akka was always one of my least liked characters. AE makes up for that somewhat with the revelations, the more expansive plot, the excitement of knowing that you're getting closer to the ending of the Second Apocalypse storyline. But the first three books had some more going for them IMO. I'm hoping TUC will blow the lights out and compensate in grand fashion.

#16 Werthead

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 05:28 AM

2014 seems very achievable at the moment, at least from Orbit's POV. Bakker sells well for them and they're keen to support him through TUC and perhaps the final series as well (regardless of what Overlook does). However, he's not shifting mega-numbers for them. I think as long as he is finished by the end of 2013, we'll see TUC in the latter half of 2014 without too many problems. If he's still writing in the New Year, it might be more likely to fall back to 2015.

The difference between GRRM and RSB, of course, is that Winter will be on shelves 2-3 months after the final draft is handed in. Bakker's nowhere near that level of sales, so from delivery to publication is going to be longer, maybe a year or more.

Edited by Werthead, 14 July 2013 - 05:30 AM.


#17 Madness

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 06:07 AM

Huh, I've even never even heard of that as far as I remember. Is it non-fiction?


The Crux - TPB

A friend of Bakker's, a Western scholar by name of Mellamphy, is apparently working to consolidate TPB's posts into some type of non-fiction book. In other news, I'm almost done a write-up of almost twenty-eight novel terms Bakker uses to describe the Blind Brain Hypothesis on TPB and in The Last Magic Show and The Introspective Peepshow - Cain and other's have been asking for a kind of Idiot's Guide to BBT and I thought I'd oblige (TTBD subforum coming soon to Second Apocalypse).

I have a love/hate relationship with this thread. I love all the discussion and theories in it, but I hate how badly it makes me fiend for the next book.

Anyway, please give us a little relief, Bakker, and hook Madness up with another sample chapter to put up on Second Apocalypse.


Lol - I wish. The second-excerpt release is going to Pat at the Hotlist when it comes. Finger's crossed. I figure September publishing jacket blurb, Oct/Nov excerpt and Janurary/February release - all random guesses.

That is interesting, you think him sending Serwa will sway the Nonmen to his side, because of what, her ability to conceive with a Nonman? Because of her ancestry?

Remind me again what you mean about Esmenet's bloodline? Had it to do with a possible Nonmen bloodline?


On SA, we've almost unanimously decided that Mimara's seduction of Cleric = the Last Scion bloodline. This is based on the fact that Ganrelka might be Celmomas' nephew, rather than son (it's pretty likely Ganrelka is his son) but regardless, the Anasurimbor Bastard's Dunyain line is false. So we've figured that Esmenet represents the true bloodline of Celmomas.

Even without this reasoning, Serwa represents the best chance for the Nonman of Ishterebinth to conceive and so revive their fallen race - [Anasurimbor are the historical carriers of Nonmen blood as per Bakker's never published TTT Glossary teaser]. I figure with Bakker's apparent feminist schtick, Serwa's Womb is going to be a hot topic in TUC.

Sure to make the plebletariat's wail and gnash their teeth /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />.

EDIT:

But seriously, what happened with that one story? Wasn't it kind of non-fiction? Is it on TPB? I just remember reading the first little bit and finding it quite interesting, and then never getting back to it. Was it completed? Was it complete from the beginning?


The draft of Light, Time, and Gravity is complete on TPB. I've read it twice. It's quite awesome. I would buy the book anytime.

Edited by Madness, 14 July 2013 - 06:36 AM.


#18 arya_underfoot

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 06:43 AM

On SA, we've almost unanimously decided that Mimara's seduction of Cleric = the Last Scion bloodline. This is based on the fact that Ganrelka might be Celmomas' nephew, rather than son (it's pretty likely Ganrelka is his son) but regardless, the Anasurimbor Bastard's Dunyain line is false. So we've figured that Esmenet represents the true bloodline of Celmomas.


I don't follow. How can Esmenet be the true bloodline of Celmomas, and why would Ganrelka's line be false?

#19 Madness

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 07:39 AM

There are a couple bullet-point posits that carry this argument:

- Celmomas would've had to have born his son, Ganrelka, at 15. While this isn't unlikely, it leaves the possibility that Ganrelka is rather Celmomas' brother, nephew, or cousin. Since the Celmomian Prophecy quotes seed specifically, it's a good wager to doubt whether the Dunyain Anasurimbor Bastard of Ishual is actually Celmomas' grandson and highlight the possible falsity of the Dunyain Anasurimbors as per fulfilling prophecies.

- Moenghus finds one other worldborn to bear his seed with thirty years to look, allowing for CIshuarim social constraints. Esmenet is the one woman, apparently, that can bear Kellhus' seed and he dredges the whole empire, allegedly, for viable mates. Esmenet as Anasurimbor and holder of Nonmen blood allows for that.

- Mimara seduces Cleric with ease, once she has the insight to shave her head and mirror the fashion of Nonmen females. But why? Because she reminds him... If she had Nonmen blood, it would explain this as well.

- Nonmen blood = Anasurimbor bloodline, ergo, assumptively heir of Celmomas /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />.

If Serwa's parents both have Nonmen blood...

#20 arya_underfoot

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 08:07 AM

This must sound extremely stupid, but do the Anasurimbors have Nonman blood? How did I miss that? Is this something to do with the man that seduced one of the famous Ishroi's wives?

Also, if all of this is true, then Maithanet's mother's indentity becomes important does it not. The same mother as Esmenet?