Targaryen Discussion (tPatQ Spoilers)

[Lord Damian]

We have speculated for a while but after reading the Princess and the Queen it is pretty much made that Targaryans due to their Valaryan blood feel themselves closer to Gods than mere men and therefore are racists. The inbreed out of that reason, even after the dragons have died and yes, they are looking for reaons to hatch eggs since then but they are essentually racists. I absolutely do not want to see them regain the Iron Throne and wish them to be destroyed altogether. This racism aflicting them also leads them to believe they can do whatever they wish upon enyone else regardless of laws or customs. Richard and Brandon Stark's unjust endings are a prime example. of the Targ's self belief in racial supremecy. "Fire is my Champion" was what Aerys to Rickard as he was seized and strung up over flames. What we call insane is perfectly sane to THEM. For those of you who think Dany is a blessing for the people of Westeros, watch out, she just may be their worst nightmare come true. Same for Aegon Vi/Young Griff. Jon, on the other hand, raised as anything but a Targ, due to his upbringing and if he survives his "Struggles" and finds his true identity may have another outlook on life and break this line of thought but who knows?

[Sansa_Stark]

I unironically agree.

[WeaselPie]

How is incest racism? At worst, they're guilty of incest for eugenics (to strengthen an inbred trait).

Hot button topic for sure.

[Mladen]

Where are popcorns when you need them? :bang:

I doubt we could easily assess Targaryens as racists, but they do show some bits of supremacist ideas. As for inbreeding, I am not certain about it. The idea behind it is abhorrent, and I admit that the "preservation of the blood" seems tragically narrow-minded, but I wouldn't go that far of calling them racist. They after all married outside Targaryen family...

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

I would say they are supremacist.

[Anath]

Is it really all that strange? To cite the author Maurice Druon, the French royals of the beginning of the 14th century were almost patriarchal. Like, Biblical patriarchs, the only difference being that in the French royal family wedding brother to sister was still avoided.

The Austro-Spanish uncle-nieces marriages in three generations in a row are another example coming to mind.

If those people had dragons, you can rest assured that they would have married brother to sister and keep every ounce of their power for themselves.

[Lord Damian]

Where are popcorns when you need them? :bang:

I doubt we could easily assess Targaryens as racists, but they do show some bits of supremacist ideas. As for inbreeding, I am not certain about it. The idea behind it is abhorrent, and I admit that the "preservation of the blood" seems tragically narrow-minded, but I wouldn't go that far of calling them racist. They after all married outside Targaryen family...

Yes, they have married outside the family, mostly for political necessity and desire like any other human can and would due but they clearly feel themselves superior to all other non Valeryans even if they did not have crowns on there heads. Remember, they sat on Dragonstone for 100 years before Aegon made the move to conquest, for that 100 years, they did not inter-marry with Westeros great houses, they inbred only and if stepped out, Valeryan blood.

[Lord Damian]

How is incest racism? At worst, they're guilty of incest for eugenics (to strengthen an inbred trait).

Hot button topic for sure.

After the doom of Valaria, there were not that may Valaryen families left

[Anath]

Yes, they have married outside the family, mostly for political necessity and desire like any other human can and would due but they clearly feel themselves superior to all other non Valeryans even if they did not have crowns on there heads. Remember, they sat on Dragonstone for 100 years before Aegon made the move to conquest, for that 100 years, they did not inter-marry with Westeros great houses, they inbred only and if stepped out, Valeryan blood.

Of course they feel superior. Just like medieval monarchs felt superior to everyone who was not royal. The idea that the king's body and blood were sacred is not GRRM. A coronation in medieval world meant exactly giving the monarch those superior, supernatural, and so on makings that made him more special.

[Lyse Stark]

We have speculated for a while but after reading the Princess and the Queen it is pretty much made that Targaryans due to their Valaryan blood feel themselves closer to Gods than mere men and therefore are racists. The inbreed out of that reason, even after the dragons have died and yes, they are looking for reaons to hatch eggs since then but they are essentually racists. I absolutely do not want to see them regain the Iron Throne and wish them to be destroyed altogether. This racism aflicting them also leads them to believe they can do whatever they wish upon enyone else regardless of laws or customs. Richard and Brandon Stark's unjust endings are a prime example. of the Targ's self belief in racial supremecy. "Fire is my Champion" was what Aerys to Rickard as he was seized and strung up over flames. What we call insane is perfectly sane to THEM. For those of you who think Dany is a blessing for the people of Westeros, watch out, she just may be their worst nightmare come true. Same for Aegon Vi/Young Griff. Jon, on the other hand, raised as anything but a Targ, due to his upbringing and if he survives his "Struggles" and finds his true identity may have another outlook on life and break this line of thought but who knows?

I have to agree that Jon may be the first to break this cycle. He was raised in First Men culture, and took much of their customs and beliefs to heart. As a result he believe that anything that excludes people of other cultures may make situations much worse. He chose to spare the Wildings because he knew they were people, just like Northerners, and make alliances with them. Secondly because the Old Gods prohibits incest, Jon may discontinue this practice because he has seen how incest make sickly offspring, like Gilly's son, and the Aery debacle just proves to him that incest has exacerbated Aery's madness.

The fact that Jon feels that "keeping the eggs in one basket", so to say, doesn't make sense to him; he may prefer to outbreed to keep the Targaryen history of mental illness at bay, and to bring in new blood to reinvigorate the sick "blood".

[Jimmy is not No One]

racism is certainly a bad thing, especially in this day and age. But of all the things to hate the targs for, this is low on the list. How about we start with the big two; murdering and raping ppl. We could move on to stealing massive amounts of wealth from nations or violently forcing your rule over said nations.

[joe42m1]

I would say that the Targaryens were not racist. They did not prize certain skin or hair or eye colors, they happened to have the same look due to inbreeding.

They did hold lineage in high esteem. We hear from multiple sources that a consort or spouse must be sufficiently high born for betrothals within the great houses. Again, this is not based on race but on lineage and blood. The Targaryens simply thought that they were better than all the other houses by virtue of their history, not their race/appearance. Also, the concept of controlling dragons seems to be tied to the blood of Old Valyria. They were very reluctant to dilute their 'blood purity'.

The Targaryens had a massive ego and feeling of superiority (as do even a few of the great houses), but they were not "racist".

[Trigger Warning]

So, everyone's a supremacist.

Especially if you descend from all powerful dragon lords.

[corbon]

We have speculated for a while but after reading the Princess and the Queen it is pretty much made that Targaryans due to their Valaryan blood feel themselves closer to Gods than mere men and therefore are racists.

Not their Valyrian blood, their believed dragon blood.

The Velaryons are just as Valyrian, but don't get any special superiority over westerosi.

Clanist, maybe xenoist, rather than racist.

And the fact that their dragon blood gives them gifts other men cannot match in the prophetic dreams and connection with their dragons peretty much justifies any claims of superiority.

Doesn't give them the right to boss others around of course, just the ability. But like most people, they'll take what they can. The 'rights' come later when they are acknowledged as the ruling Dynasty, just like Robert Baratheon or any of the other kingly lineages.

[WeaselPie]

So does that mean Lannister rule and inbreeding is racism?

[LordStoneheart]

Ethnocentric is a better way to put it.

Also, while I am a big fan of Daenerys and a Targ restoration, I never thought she was a blessing.

[Shitmouth the Wise]

Their sense of superiority seems warranted given their special powers and ability to command dragons.

[Nictarion]

Is it really all that strange? To cite the author Maurice Druon, the French royals of the beginning of the 14th century were almost patriarchal. Like, Biblical patriarchs, the only difference being that in the French royal family wedding brother to sister was still avoided.

The Austro-Spanish uncle-nieces marriages in three generations in a row are another example coming to mind.

If those people had dragons, you can rest assured that they would have married brother to sister and keep every ounce of their power for themselves.

Add the Ptolemiies of ancient Egypt to the list.

[Mithras]

Trying to observe a medieval event with 20th century glasses makes you deduce such anachronistic ideas.

[Raven in Winter]

I think they were just classist. The belief that they were better than everyone else stems from the fact that they were the ruling dynasty for centuries. Had things been different and Aegon I and his sisters and dragons got their collective asses handed to them, the Targaryans probably wouldn't be so high and mighty acting.