A Song of Ice and Fire and feminism.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

1. Don't just do an analysis of Cersei, compare her to at least 2 or 3 other characters, and explore how they fit and break stereotypes. I'd suggest Dany, Brienne and Catelyn.

2. If Cersei is the centrepiece, some things you might want to look at would be the Walk of Shame (possible comparison to Brienne's bathhouse encounter with Jaime), her alcoholism, her relationship with Robert (Catelyn/Ned) etc.

3. You will want to clearly define some overarching point about Martin as a writer, and maybe also look at the real world consequences of characters such as these.

Good luck! I did feminism focussed literature during my A-levels and I was in a class full of girls :cool4: :worried: It was terrifying at times.

One of the books I studied was Rebecca by Daphne du Maurier, and I think if you read this you would find it very helpful as a point of comparison for Cersei, even if you just reference it in passing I'm sure your teacher would be impressed.

If you read any of these, this is the one to pay attention to. Also, think about what Cersei values women, and herself, for.....sex, beauty, cunning intelligence. Is this also what she thinks gives men power? Look at her relationship with Tyrion.

[Welease Woger]

I actually think Cersei is a good choice for a feminist analysis. One of her most interesting traits is that she always hated being a woman because the social institutions of Westeros relegated her to a submissive role. She is not happy with merely being pretty and raising children, she always wanted to play the game of thrones like the men, to be powerful and feared like her father.

Unfortunately, not only Westerosi society is chauvinist, but she was raised by a truly terrible father, hence, although Cersei had a lot of potential, this potential has been wasted. She grew up damaged, frustrated and humiliated, and when she finally managed to be in a position of power, she screwed up because she's never been prepared for power. She was raised to be a wife-queen, not a queen-quen. She had to learn while she was in the throne, although she was quite hindered by a series of psychological traumas that are actually a consequence of her troubled upbringing.

[Melifeather]

I don't see Sansa as a feminist. She's a young woman who desires the world to live up to her romantic, chivalric ideals.

Cersei is a feminist. She believes women are equal to men and goes about acting like the men around her. You perceive her to be psychotic and sociopathic, but so was her father, who she tries very hard to emulate. Woman are more intuitive and emotional than men. It's not a weakness, it's just a genetic difference. It's also something that you can view more subjectively when you get older and less influenced by hormones. I don't think her walk of shame has changed her. She'll regroup and become more careful. I expect her to get her revenge. It may also end her life, but she will kill someone important.

Brienne, while not explicitly described as such, seems to be gay. She's unusually physically strong for a female and eschews anything she perceives to be feminine. I'm not saying she's not a feminist, but being a feminist shouldn't mean that you also have to be a lesbian.

Arya is what is commonly referred to as a tomboy. I was a sort of tomboy growing up and I think it's a delicate balance between feminine and masculine. Arya is definitely a feminist. She feels she can do anything a boy can and will likely continue to develop into a grown woman that will challenge stereotypes. I think many readers expect Arya to become an assassin, and most of the other characters won't expect this. The only people who know she's capable are Hot Pie, Gendry and the Kindly Old Man.

Love her or hate her, but Catelyn is/was a feminist. She fulfilled a traditional role as wife and mother, but she was a leader and people listened to her. She didn't always make the right decision, but who does? She always had her family's safety in mind and family is what motivated her decisions.

Daenerys is a feminist. I see her as honorable, and her decisions are motivated by what she perceives to be her "rights". She thinks it's her right to rule Westeros by virtue of royal lineage. Her decision to marry HIzdahr wasn't a cop out. She truly felt she was making a good decision that would unite Meereen. Marriage is a traditional way for royals to unite houses and not a decision that many women get to make for themselves. Usually the fathers, lords or kings arrange the marriages, many times against the betrothed party's wills. She was never attracted to Hizdahr, but she made an absolute strategic decision.

Melisandre is also a feminist. She uses her physical beauty and acquired knowledge for political gain. She maximizes her feminine attributes rather than emulating men.

Asha is the tomboy grown. She and Arya are a lot alike. She is walking a tightrope between feminine and masculine, but puts entirely too much trust in the men in her life and could be criticized for not embracing enough of her femaleness. Does she even have female friends? Maybe she'll learn how to trust other women from Alysane Mormont.

Speaking of Alysane Mormont, the Mormont women are comfortable in their own skins. They're smart, capable, loyal and accepted as equals by men. Maege Mormont is the "lord" of her family house. In my opinion, she's the best, most positive example of a feminist.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I'd recommend Cat as the best character to focus on in terms of feminism.

[Kasporio]

So Cersei's failures is the proof the patriarchal society in Westeros is unfair for women ?

On the other hand, we could say Cersei's inability to rule is the proof that women should stay away from any position of power.

Cersei isnt a feminist. She considers every woman except her as weak and despicable.

She NEVER tried to improve herself.

she always rejected her faults on other people.

Her difficult upbringing couldnt be an excuse for everything.

People makes choices. She did.

[WeaselPie]

This is the first of January and my head is dizzy, I'm tired and my cock is sore.

This sentence made me choke on my Bloody Mary.

Someone suggested Sansa vs. Arya as an analysis, and I think that's an excellent suggestion.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

On the topic of the Mormont women, Catelyn makes an interesting comment about how they seem to fit in, to be natural, to belong when they are in chainmail and armour in a way Brienne never does. I believe its her chapter in Storm of Swords as they are travelling to the Twins. And for 4 women in chainmail to fit in when they are amongst an army.of bearded, masculine Northerners is quite an achievement.

Cersei also has the interesting conversation with Sansa where she says tears are a womans weapon but also what she has between her legs, which i think gives a good insight into Cersei's mind prior to her POV.

Sansa may not be a feminist, but she is a good example of someone who goes through a number of situations where she is oppressed by a male.figure.

First of all it is Joffrey with his Kingsguard who she comes to fear. Through his abuse, his threats, his taunts, she is reduced to her "little bird, repeating the empty words her septa taught her". She believes none of the things she says but continues to repeat them for.her own safety. She even goes to great lengths to please Joffrey (he likes me when i am pretty) and there is the moment she recieves the note to go to the Godswood where she considers telling people so they think she is loyal and good.

Second you get Tyrion when he marries her. This isnt exactly the same, as Tyrion never directly oppresses her, yet his very presence is enough to make her THINK she must be polite, quiet, keep her true thoughts hidden. So by this point she has been conditioned in the way the male figures (Tywin, Joffrey) want her to be.

Finally you have Littlefinger, who outwardly appears to be her saviour but is really just another male figure who is beating her down. He "saves" her from.the Lannisters and KL, but then he enforces his own rules, his own beliefs. He teaches her how he wants her to act. Its all just another step Sansa has been forced to take that she doesnt particularly want to.

Basically, Sansa screama out as a victim of a patriarchal society, and without going into speculation about; will she sleep woth LF? Kill Sweetrobin? Marry HtH? she still makes a good example of partiarchy

[thepooperthatwaspromised]

OP - I think Cersei is a wonderfully complex character to use as focal point. What's interesting to me about her is that though she is no paragon of feminism, she was given all the tools, resources, and opportunities to become one. Here's a woman who was powerful by birthright, marriage, beauty and education. With all her advantages, she could have conceivably become the most powerful feminist icon in all of Westeros, but her emotional flaws override all that potential. Every action she takes toward further empowerment is done in such a way that ultimately undermines her own goals, 1 step forward, 10 steps back.

In contrast, some of the other characters people have mentioned - Asha, Brienne, Sansa, Arya - are great counterpoints because though they were not handed, and maybe because of, their disadvantages, have to use unique skills and abilities and forms of discipline to become feminists outside the realms of traditional femininity.

It would also be interesting to compare how ladies like Margery and Olenna Tyrell, and the Sandsnakes, who were also born with similar advantages to Cersei, have learned to further their own agency and power. (Both Sansa and the sandsnakes could really fall into either category, but I've included Sansa up there because of her lessened station as a result of the stain of being a "traitor's daughter", the fall of her house, and her hostage status)

How all these other women succeed as feminist characters and how Cersei fails, would make a pretty interesting topic, I think.

One more sidenote about Cersei, as some might claim she is too stupid to ever be considered intelligent. I'd argue that though she commits some of the stupidest acts of any character in the series, I think it's her emotional intelligence, not actual mental acuity, that's stunted and lacking. In fact, if given an IQ test, I wouldn't be surprised if she scored significantly above average.

[Er Rn]

Cersei is a feminist. She believes women are equal to men and goes about acting like the men around her. You perceive her to be psychotic and sociopathic, but so was her father, who she tries very hard to emulate. Woman are more intuitive and emotional than men. It's not a weakness, it's just a genetic difference. It's also something that you can view more subjectively when you get older and less influenced by hormones. I don't think her walk of shame has changed her. She'll regroup and become more careful. I expect her to get her revenge. It may also end her life, but she will kill someone important.

I disagree. She doesn't see women as equal to men, she sees herself as equal to men. In general she shows nothing but disdain toward other women. Look at the way she treats Sansa and Margaery, or her comments on the septas that she says could do with a good raping.

That being said, I do think Cersei is a great character to study the effects of the patriarchal society on women. I would compare and contrast her with Catelyn, focusing on the differences in their education, relationship to their children (particularly that they're both mothers to kings and their influence and council given), relationship to other women, marriage; lots of interesting possibilities!

[cocoalover1956]

I don't see Sansa as a feminist. She's a young woman who desires the world to live up to her romantic, chivalric ideals.

The Pawn to Player thread says otherwise.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I don't see Sansa as a feminist. She's a young woman who desires the world to live up to her romantic, chivalric ideals.

Cersei is a feminist. She believes women are equal to men and goes about acting like the men around her.

Is she? Does she? What has she ever done for women not named Cersei of House Lannister? Because, honestly, I think that's the only group of women she cares about.

Brienne, while not explicitly described as such, seems to be gay. She's unusually physically strong for a female and eschews anything she perceives to be feminine. I'm not saying she's not a feminist, but being a feminist shouldn't mean that you also have to be a lesbian.

Huh. I was under the impression that some romantic feelings directed at the Kingslayer started creeping up on her (uninvited), and don't remember her having the hots for any women. I thought "lesbian" meant "a girl who likes girls", but now I wonder.

[Winter's Knight]

There are no feminists in ASoIaF. There are characters with feminist leanings and characters whose stories explore feminist ideas and there are women who do not fit into Westerosi ideals for women and rebel.

[Winter's Knight]

Also jesus, Brienne is not a lesbian-she's fallen for two different men already.

[David Selig]

This thread would probably be of interest for the OP - http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/80234-cersei-feminist-character-or-not/

There are no feminists in ASoIaF. There are characters with feminist leanings and characters whose stories explore feminist ideas and there are women who do not fit into Westerosi ideals for women and rebel.

This.

[Kasporio]

Cersei's opinion about women :

Sansa : stupid, treacherous

Catelyn : stupid, emotional

Margeary, Taena, Shae : stupid, scheming, whore

Brienne, Melara : stupid, unworthy of Jaime's interest

She sees every woman through her own flaws.

[Michael Herman]

Whilst certainly an interesting character to examine from a feminist perspective, I don't think that makes Cersei a feminist character. She hates the patriarchal culture she lives in, sure, but she's okay with it when it suits her, and she mostly hates it because she wants power for herself. Plus feminism is a bit of a ridiculous concept in a feudal society, how can you preach equality between the sexes when there is an enforced social hierarchy?

[Michael Herman]

There are no feminists in ASoIaF. There are characters with feminist leanings and characters whose stories explore feminist ideas and there are women who do not fit into Westerosi ideals for women and rebel.

Thank you.

[Melifeather]

I disagree. She doesn't see women as equal to men, she sees herself as equal to men. In general she shows nothing but disdain toward other women. Look at the way she treats Sansa and Margaery, or her comments on the septas that she says could do with a good raping.

That being said, I do think Cersei is a great character to study the effects of the patriarchal society on women. I would compare and contrast her with Catelyn, focusing on the differences in their education, relationship to their children (particularly that they're both mothers to kings and their influence and council given), relationship to other women, marriage; lots of interesting possibilities!

People typically hate others who demonstrate qualities that they dislike in themselves. The opposite is also true, people typically like others that demonstrate qualities that they perceive they have and are proud of, or qualities that they hope to achieve. I can honestly say that I dislike the Sansa character because she behaves in despicable ways that I too was guilty of in my youth. Self preservation is a common motivator for both Sansa and Cersei. Sansa could very well turn out in similar ways as Cersei if Littlefinger ends up with much influence.

Cersei's assessment of Margeary, Taena and Shae as "scheming whores" is blatant jealousy. In in some respects, you could even see that as respect.

Is she? Does she? What has she ever done for women not named Cersei of House Lannister? Because, honestly, I think that's the only group of women she cares about.

Huh. I was under the impression that some romantic feelings directed at the Kingslayer started creeping up on her (uninvited), and don't remember her having the hots for any women. I thought "lesbian" meant "a girl who likes girls", but now I wonder.

It has been a long while since my last re-read, but I didn't interpret any of Brienne's feelings as romantic. "Respect", yes.

Also jesus, Brienne is not a lesbian-she's fallen for two different men already.

If I assume Jaime is one, who was the other? If Brienne isn't a lesbian, she's asexual. I could have a very bad memory too. Please point me towards any passages where you feel Brienne is having romantic feelings for a man.

Cersei's opinion about women :

Sansa : stupid, treacherous

Catelyn : stupid, emotional

Margeary, Taena, Shae : stupid, scheming, whore

Brienne, Melara : stupid, unworthy of Jaime's interest

She sees every woman through her own flaws.

True. People do view others through their very own flaws.

[Michael Herman]

So Cersei's failures is the proof the patriarchal society in Westeros is unfair for women ?

On the other hand, we could say Cersei's inability to rule is the proof that women should stay away from any position of power.

Cersei isnt a feminist. She considers every woman except her as weak and despicable.

She NEVER tried to improve herself.

she always rejected her faults on other people.

Her difficult upbringing couldnt be an excuse for everything.

People makes choices. She did.

I agree that you can't just say "they had a difficult upbringing" to excuse the actions of a character, but I don't agree that you can simply say Cersei made choices, every character is (or should be) the product of their upbringing, from Joffrey and Ramsay, to Ned and Barristan.

[David Selig]

If I assume Jaime is one, who was the other? If Brienne isn't a lesbian, she's asexual. I could have a very bad memory too. Please point me towards any passages where you feel Brienne is having romantic feelings for a man.

She had a massive crush on Renly. It's mentioned numerous time.