Is Jaime more honorable than Robb?

[Salinda]

This is purely a discussion from an oathbreaking to oathkeeping perspective, so no this isn't about who the better person is morally

At age 16, Jaime chose to slay his King, breaking his sacred oath and sacrificing his own honor in order to save the populace of King's Landing from destruction. While this does constitute a grave transgression against the instituition of the Kingsguard, most people can agree that Jaime made the right choice. He valued the lives of tens of thousands over what personal shame may have come from this action, which makes this more honorable than dishonorable.

At exactly the same age, Robb decides to sacrifice not only his own honor but that of House Frey in order to preserve the honor of Jeyne Westerling by marrying her. Now was this the right choice from an honor perspective? No, it's quite obvious that the honorable thing to do in this case would have been to keep his oath to a man who has provided Robb with thousands of soldiers, some of whom have bled and died under his banners and has even given up his heir instead of throwing all that away for one woman. Robb could have also made arrangements so that Jeyne is well-provided for, even set up a marriage for her. Instead, not only did he shame the Freys, but indeed, the honor of his entire cause and any right Robb had to say he was an honorable man from that point onward, all for something insignificant. This in turn makes the Karstark incident an act of hypocrisy, as Robb states his honor has been killed by Lord Karstark. Was his honor not killed by his own actions previous to this? And it is even a transgression against the gods just like Jaime's infraction, as the High Septon has noted that they do indeed hold betrothal to be solemn. And yet there was no greater good to be accomplished with this action

Now the obvious answer as to why Robb did it and thought it was honorable, was that the honor was just an excuse. It's clear that this was simply teenage infatuation disguised as honorable course, which makes this even more ignoble than it already is. How then is Robb honorable even in the slightest way?

Another example is that Jaime has recently gone through great lengths to uphold his oath to Catelyn even when it is the harder path to choose. He has even gone so far as to ride off from his men, to look for Sansa at great danger to his own person, as he would have to face the Hound. Robb on the other hand, chose the easy attractive woman over the harder loveless political marriage. Here Robb values his own satisfaction over what is right, yet another way Jaime is more honorable

Now many will say "Jaime broke his Kingsguard vows by fathering children upon the Queen!". True that this is a purely dishonorable action that cannot be argued as anything else. But even with this being weighed, the fact remains that Jaime has chosen to be honorable in a higher proportion than Robb has

And yet in spite of this, readers often consider Robb to be the more honorable person than Jaime. Why is this? Simply put, just because he is Ned Stark's son people do not critically assess his actions. Simply mentioning "honor" as a reason for something does not make it so. In the end, Robb failed to be as honorable as a man widely regarded as having shit for honor, yet sanctimoniously thought of his honor as beyond any reproach

[joffrey fan]

At least Robb didn't push a child out of the window. Isn't that considered breaking guest rights or something like that?

Jaime should never be forgiven for that.

[Lady Howell]

No one will ever forgive him for that in the fandom, but even honorable old Ned questioned himself over whether or not he would do the same thing if his family was at sake. Ned basically implied he would have at least considered doing the same in Jaime's position if it meant protecting his family. It's definitely a morally wrong thing, but in a world like Westeros where family and blood and protecting them are values held very highly, it's hard to say whether or not it was honorable or not. To some, it would probably be seen a dishonorable, to others, it may have been honorable to do something so heinous in order to protect one's family, and others might have seen it ambiguously.

But back to the question at hand. I guess if you go by a point system, Jaime was technically more honorable than Robb, but I don't think that necessarily makes Jaime the more honorable one as a whole. Honor and morality are linked, so I don't think someone could necessarily be the more honorable one without also being the more moral one as well. So I guess, in a weird way, they're tied.

[Robert the Great]

At least Robb didn't break his oath of celibacy and fornicate with the queen and hence produce three treasons which have caused a great War.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Jaime swore oaths to two separate Kings, he killed one and cuckolded the other. Jaime is far less honorable.

[Kienn]

Robb is more honorable by far.

Jaime likes to brag he saved a half million people by killing Aerys(many of which Tywin killed anyways), but Jaime has killed millions of people by fathering Joffrey.

[The Wolves]

At least Robb didn't break his oath of celibacy and fornicate with the queen and hence produce three treasons which have caused a great War.

And tried to murder two children(Bran and Arya)which resulted in one child not being able to walk or have children ever in his short life.

[David Selig]

Now many will say "Jaime broke his Kingsguard vows by fathering children upon the Queen!". True that this is a purely dishonorable action that cannot be argued as anything else. But even with this being weighed, the fact remains that Jaime has chosen to be honorable in a higher proportion than Robb has

Wait a second - so Jaime broke his oath like a thousand times over a period of 15 years, Robb did it once, yet Jaime is more honorable. Your weighting method must'be really special.

[SpringKing]

There is circumstantial evidence that Robb was given a love potion while he was recuperating at the Crag, Tywin and Sybell Westerling had an 'arrangement' that preceded the fall of the Crag. Jaime and Sybell discuss the terms of the arrangement after the surrender of Riverrun. One of the terms is that a suitable new husband will be found for Jeyne. Kevan mentions Sybell's grandmother is Maggy the Frog. Half of Lannisport went to Maggy for "cures and love potions". Tywin notes that the Westerlings, facing total ruin like the Reynes at Castamere, have been "clever".

The arrangement for Jeyne's new husband indicates Tywin & Sybell's plan included marrying Jeyne and Robb. Tywin calls Robb "his father's son", a reference to Ned's honor. This indicates Robb will feel honor bound to marry Jeyne after bedding her. But it also indicates Robb wouldnt bed her because he'd honor his Frey betrothal. Maggy's love potion is the "clever" method Sybell uses to turn Robb's honor against him.

[MyLittleFinger]

That love potion must have been lodged up her thighs or something...

[Salinda]

At least Robb didn't break his oath of celibacy and fornicate with the queen and hence produce three treasons which have caused a great War.

Instead his broke his sacred betrothal and doomed his Kingdom and the lives of thousands

Jaime swore oaths to two separate Kings, he killed one and cuckolded the other. Jaime is far less honorable.

As I've said, Jaime killed Aerys to prevent tens of thousands of deaths. It's by the book dishonorable, but overall it is an honorable action. Which is indeed similar to Ned declaring himself a traitor and Joffrey the real King to save the life of his daughter. And yet, Jaime is rebuked for this and Ned is praised

As for cuckolding Robert, this action is but one on a long list. Overall, the point is that he has proven himself more honorable than Robb who made one oath in his entire life and simultaneously broke it for a poor justification, and mostly due to hormones. There is no greater good to be had here

Robb is more honorable by far.

Jaime likes to brag he saved a half million people by killing Aerys(many of which Tywin killed anyways), but Jaime has killed millions of people by fathering Joffrey.

He is not to blame for Tywin's actions. Similarly the entire war also cannot be blamed on simply fathering Joffrey. Many other factors are at play here, and to simply put it all on Jaime is not entirely fair. Much is the same erroneously conclusion that Catelyn started the war by kidnapping Tyrion, it's much more complicated than that. We can never know how many people died purely by the action of fathering Joffrey in isolation

And tried to murder two children(Bran and Arya)which resulted in one child not being able to walk or have children ever in his short life.

This is not a moral discussion insofar as it related to oathbreaking and oathkeeping. These murders/attempted murders aren't entirely relevant

Wait a second - so Jaime broke his oath like a thousand times over a period of 15 years, Robb did it once, yet Jaime is more honorable. Your weighting method must'be really special.

There are two facets of the oath he broke, to have sex and to not father children. Even if we go with over 1000 transgressions, this does not reduce Jaime's over all honor rating to zero. On the other hand, Robb has an honor rating of 0 as the only oath he has even sworn, he has broken.

But this is only a purely oathbreaking to oathkeeping calculation, if we go by taking a weighted measure of lives saved vs. lives lost by oathbreaking, Jaime has saved lives as well as destroyed them. Robb has purely destroyed them, meaning he loses yet again

[Lee-Sensei]

Sure. Jaime is more honorable than Robb. Other than the fact that he joined the Kingsguard to cuckold his Prince and future King, broke his oath as a member of the Kingsguard, cuckolded his sworn King, was sleeping with his sister, broke guest rights by pushing a child out the window and tried to place his bastards born of incest on the throne while saying to hell with the deaths it would cause. Yeah. He was much more honorable than Robb Stark.

[Mr Smith]

I love Jaime. He's one of my favourite characters. But more honourable than Robb? Please.

[Frey Kings]

Is this a joke? I'm waiting for a more painful death for Jaime

[Robert the Great]

Sure. Jaime is more honorable than Robb. Other than the fact that he joined the Kingsguard to cuckold his Prince and future King, killed his King, cuckolded his sworn King, was sleeping with his sister, broke guest rights by pushing a child out the window and tried to place his bastards born of incest on the throne while saying to hell with the deaths it would cause. Yeah. He was much more honorable than Robb Stark.

Your post sums it up quite well.. breaking one betrothal is way, way more dishonourable than kingslaying, breaking vow of celibacy, fornicating with the queen, incest and breaking guest rights all combined.

Like tv ned said "You served him well when serving was safe" ..

Note how the more honorouble didn't resort to kingslaying when it was just barbecuing a Warden and torturing his son or when the queen was being raped. He could have killed him at any point during the Rebellion and he could have murdered him Aerys when he gave Rossart the map telling him were to put wildfire way before the final command was issued, but he decided to chill until Rhae man fell on the Trident and everyone knew which side it'll be safer working for.

[LordStoneheart]

So your argument is Jaime has a higher point percentage because Robb only made one oath and broke it, even knowing full well that Jaime has major faults in his honor and oathbreaking?

yeah, see below.

[Minsc]

No one will ever forgive him for that in the fandom, but even honorable old Ned questioned himself over whether or not he would do the same thing if his family was at sake. Ned basically implied he would have at least considered doing the same in Jaime's position if it meant protecting his family.

Ned was under the delusion that Jaime did it for his children, when likely he did it only for himself and Cersei.

On the OP: No, Jaime isn't even close. Hell, Vic is likely more honorable then Jaime.

[Tellus Explorer]

Here's your deciding factor.... Robb has never tossed a kid out of a window 'for love'

[Salinda]

Sure. Jaime is more honorable than Robb. Other than the fact that he joined the Kingsguard to cuckold his Prince and future King, broke his oath as a member of the Kingsguard, cuckolded his sworn King, was sleeping with his sister, broke guest rights by pushing a child out the window and tried to place his bastards born of incest on the throne while saying to hell with the deaths it would cause. Yeah. He was much more honorable than Robb Stark.

Even if we count the number of times he broke the oath as a Kingsguard by cuckolding Robert/fathering children, how many times did he fulfill his oath as a knight by saving the ~500,000 populace of King's Landing? And Jaime simply slept with Cersei, he did actively take any role in place Joffrey on the Throne, he cares nothing for it or for her children by and large. If it was his choice, they would simply not have any

I don't see how this makes him less honorable someone who in your own words said "to hell with" the sacrifices of the Freys, including the ones who died for him

[Minsc]

Even if we count the number of times he broke the oath as a Kingsguard by cuckolding Robert/fathering children, how many times did he fulfill his oath as a knight by saving the ~500,000 populace of King's Landing? And Jaime simply slept with Cersei, he did actively take any role in place Joffrey on the Throne, he cares nothing for it or for her children by and large. If it was his choice, they would simply not have any

Once

Jaime actively fought in the Lannister armies that were supporting Joffrey hold the throne, and he later takes charge to force the Riverlands submission to the Iron Throne held by Tommen.