Consigliere Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I've seen the argument several times. The timeline fits if you take into account that the fisherman's daughter could have traveled most of the way back to WF with Ned. Big "If'". There is no evidence of that. Another point to consider; if the fisherman's daughter is Jon's mother then why is there a need for all the secrecy from Ned? He was neither married nor betrothed at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elybe Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 David Benioff and Dan Weiss have stated in numerous intervews that they correctly guessed the identity of Jon's mother during a meeting with GRRM which took place back when there were only three books out. Here's one from last year, complete with GRRM nodding in affirmation. Unless those guys are psychic, the fisherman's daughter option is DOA no matter which timeline you use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Wait. Where are these cousins from White Harbor mentioned by Arya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Wait. Where are these cousins from White Harbor mentioned by Arya?Interesting, I missed that somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Interesting, I missed that somehow. It was said here: I think it is perfectly possible that Ned does have a bastard but that doesn't mean it has to be Jon. If Jon is Ned's only acknowledged bastard and his real bastard is hidden then people are going to assume that the fisherman's grandchild and Jon are one and the same. “You were never the boy you were,” Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?” “Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, Ned doesn't say that Wylla is Jon's mother but gives her name in answer to the question of who his "bastard's mother" is. If Ned did have a fling with a fisherman's daughter then he was telling Robert the truth while keeping silent about Jon's origins. Arya talks of visits to White Harbour to see her cousins but the Starks don't seem to have gone out of their way to visit other family members so it might be that Ned's bastard is hidden there. So where in the books is this? Because I can't remember it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 David Benioff and Dan Weiss have stated in numerous intervews that they correctly guessed the identity of Jon's mother during a meeting with GRRM which took place back when there were only three books out. Here's one from last year, complete with GRRM nodding in affirmation. Unless those guys are psychic, the fisherman's daughter option is DOA no matter which timeline you use. Not only this, Martin has stated that it could be figured out by AGOT alone. Which refutes the fisherman's wife, and some other more ridiculous theories like Mance being his father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Not only this, Martin has stated that it could be figured out by AGOT alone. Which refutes the fisherman's wife, and some other more ridiculous theories like Mance being his father. If that's the case, R+L=J should almost be considered "confirmed." If it's just AGOT, then that that excludes the KotLT story. This means that the best evidence for Ashara being the mother (by either Ned or Brandon) is gone as well. All we get to the contrary of R+L=J in AGOT is Ned's one remark about Wylla and Cat remembering that she heard a rumor about Ashara. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenFire3 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Not only this, Martin has stated that it could be figured out by AGOT alone. Which refutes the fisherman's wife, and some other more ridiculous theories like Mance being his father. Indeed. Confirmed by this post of Ran. And yet people keep on grasping at straws... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Ned doesn't say that Wylla is Jon's mother but gives her name in answer to the question of who his "bastard's mother" is. If Ned did have a fling with a fisherman's daughter then he was telling Robert the truth while keeping silent about Jon's origins. Arya talks of visits to White Harbour to see her cousins but the Starks don't seem to have gone out of their way to visit other family members so it might be that Ned's bastard is hidden there. Wait a sec, if the Starks have cousins in White Harbor, why did Robb need to legitimize Jon? There are some (distant) cousins in the Vale, IIRC, but I don't remember any Stark relatives in the North other than Karstarks. This is why Sansa and fArya are so important, they are the least heir to Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenFire3 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Wait a sec, if the Starks have cousins in White Harbor, why did Robb need to legitimize Jon? There are some (distant) cousins in the Vale, IIRC, but I don't remember any Stark relatives in the North other than Karstarks. This is why Sansa and fArya are so important, they are the last heir to Winterfell. I believe the reference is to this SSM. ETA and this passage: She had visited White Harbor with her father twice, but she knew King's Landing better. AFfC, chapter 22. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I believe he is referring to this SSM. The poster states that Arya mentions visits to White Harbour to visit her cousins. I don't recall that passage from the text but I will do a search and see if anything comes up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herr witz Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 If that's the case, R+L=J should almost be considered "confirmed." If it's just AGOT, then that that excludes the KotLT story. This means that the best evidence for Ashara being the mother (by either Ned or Brandon) is gone as well. All we get to the contrary of R+L=J in AGOT is Ned's one remark about Wylla and Cat remembering that she heard a rumor about Ashara. My third read of the books and, in turn, my third read of the ToJ dream from GoT was convincing enough for me, and if GRRM said this there should be very little doubt. As my high school law teacher used to say every single day in regards to the textbook...'Prego...it's in there'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J87QekxQVI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenFire3 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 The poster states that Arya mentions visits to White Harbour to visit her cousins. I don't recall that passage from the text but I will do a search and see if anything comes up. Indeed. It's a blend of the passage in a AFfC I ETA-quoted and the SSM imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 FrozenFire3, You are correct. The only quote I could find was from Feast: “She had visited White Harbor with her father twice, but she knew King’s Landing better.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eunuch Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Thanks for this topic. For me, there is not doubt about R+L=J. Some elements outside of the books are also striking :-GRRM asked the producers of the show who is Jon's mother, which means the answer is crucial (and not just "some maid/random lady"),-The question still remains unanswered, and will be given an answer in one of the last two books, which means... this is big,-Who else could be the "Song of ice and fire" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyse Stark Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 My third read of the books and, in turn, my third read of the ToJ dream from GoT was convincing enough for me, and if GRRM said this there should be very little doubt. As my high school law teacher used to say every single day in regards to the textbook...'Prego...it's in there'. Good analogy. If the clues point to one direction and the others seem planted, then it's a sure-fire conclusion that the latter is not true.It's like a mystery novel with obivous clues suggesting the butler did it, but more subtle clues pointing toward the maid. So if it seem obivious, then it is a red herring. I think GRRM set Dany up to be a red herring in order to obscure the true saviour; Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shk12344 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Thanks for this topic. For me, there is not doubt about R+L=J. Some elements outside of the books are also striking : -GRRM asked the producers of the show who is Jon's mother, which means the answer is crucial (and not just "some maid/random lady"), -The question still remains unanswered, and will be given an answer in one of the last two books, which means... this is big, -Who else could be the "Song of ice and fire" ?Exactly, implication in the D&D's answer wasn't just that they were clever enough to figure out some meaningless riddle, but they understood the importance of R+L to the story. Ultimately it is a story about Jon's life; where he came from, where he is and where he is going. It's really a seven books trying to answer the question to "Who is Jon Snow?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Kraken Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Its basically obvious that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. There is just so much pointing to it. I wonder what his real name is..? Jon just seems like a cover name to make him seem of the North, its probably Aeron or something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 It was said here:So where in the books is this? Because I can't remember it..That is what I meant, I don't recall any such thing, so it must be an invention, unless someone can come up with book and page. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Indeed. Confirmed by this post of Ran. And yet people keep on grasping at straws...Not grasping at straws, just refusing to accept, because of some personal bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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