R+L =J, v. 77

[Boarsbane]

Do you have any evidence that Rhaegar had gas?

Within the context of the theory, if Rhaegar dismounted and Robert took advantage, then by their codes, it would be a dirty move.

In todays world, its whatever goes to survive, but not then.

Besides, a man who would sign off on the murder of children is pretty much capable of anything.

I'm not one that thinks Rhaegar is perfect, but I do think he was a better man than Robert.

I have as much evidence that Rhaegar had gas as you do that Robert cheated.

Where does it say, or even suggest, Rhaegar dismounted and Robert took advantage? That is your own fanfiction.

[The guy from the Vale]

I have as much evidence that Rhaegar had gas as you do that Robert cheated.

Where does it say, or even suggest, Rhaegar dismounted and Robert took advantage? That is your own fanfiction.

It is suggested by the discrepancy of the accounts Ygrain noted upthread. Is it conclusive? Hardly. But all of it taken together, including Jorah's comment, paints an interesting picture indeed.

[Alia of the knife]

I have as much evidence that Rhaegar had gas as you do that Robert cheated.

Where does it say, or even suggest, Rhaegar dismounted and Robert took advantage? That is your own fanfiction.

Didn't state it as a fact.

Its speculative THEORY. And a pretty decent one since the original poster highlighted the initial descrepanies in the text, following it up with what was understood regarding Medieval codes of warfare.

(But geez, I didn't think we needed disclaimers to indicate that we are talking speculation here).

And as far as "fanfiction" goes, the topic has been gas, whores and cheating, I'm not kidding myself about getting any awards, even by those standards.

[Alia of the knife]

:agree:

Where's that like button again?... Oh, I forgot :/

I miss the "Like" button too. Maybe someday.....

[JonCon's Red Beard]

When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.

That's very sad. He's dead and people is worried to recover the rubies :/

About them fighting, I always thought that Robert accused him of stealing Lyanna from him and Rhaegar simply shrugged it off or said "she didn't love you". To me, Robert -when he says that Rhaegar "won"- knows deep inside that she wanted Rhaegar and not him.

Robert doesn't need to cheat to beat some pretty boy musician. I speculate the only reason Rhaegar was able to injure him is because Robert hadn't fully healed from all the wounds he had suffered fighting in a war.

Untrue and untrue.

Robert was well recovering and well kept by the whores. He even got so good tended that he fathered a girl.

Also, musicians are strong. Have you see all the drugs and hard lives they live and they fucking survive until their 80s nowadays??

More like the wounds he sustained from boffing all the whores as he fought for his "lady love."

And shy Ned won the rest for him.

Wasn't Jon Con looking for him while he was practically hiding under the whores's beds?

[Ser Leftwich]

I'm so excited you brought this up Ygrain! The part in red has always been one of my secret crackpots. Knowing how much Tywin wanted Cersei to marry Rhaegar it would be very out of character for him not to take advantage of Pycelle's position as grand maester to undermine her rival. In ADWD, doesn't JonCon recall that it was the maesters who informed the prince that Elia would be unable to have more children?

For royal births there were likely a number of people attending Elia, not just Pycelle. Would Pycelle have had the gravitas to force other maesters to agree with his lying to Rhaegar and Elia?

Also, would Rhaegar and Elia have had their own maester as part of their household?

[Alia of the knife]

That's very sad. He's dead and people is worried to recover the rubies :/

About them fighting, I always thought that Robert accused him of stealing Lyanna from him and Rhaegar simply shrugged it off or said "she didn't love you". To me, Robert -when he says that Rhaegar "won"- knows deep inside that she wanted Rhaegar and not him.

Untrue and untrue.

Robert was well recovering and well kept by the whores. He even got so good tended that he fathered a girl.

Also, musicians are strong. Have you see all the drugs and hard lives they live and they fucking survive until their 80s nowadays??

Wasn't Jon Con looking for him while he was practically hiding under the whores's beds?

I'd forgotten about that.

Even better.

Also agree on Robert knowing the truth deep down inside, though Rhaegar planted the seed by telling him.

[Boarsbane]

It is suggested by the discrepancy of the accounts Ygrain noted upthread. Is it conclusive? Hardly. But all of it taken together, including Jorah's comment, paints an interesting picture indeed.

Not really. If you are going to question Ned because he didn't see the actual fight, why are you taking what Jorah said so seriously when he also didn't witness the fight? It is cherry picking to try and make Robert look like a scumbag and Rhaegar the honorable knight.

[Ser Creighton]

It is suggested by the discrepancy of the accounts Ygrain noted upthread. Is it conclusive? Hardly. But all of it taken together, including Jorah's comment, paints an interesting picture indeed.

You might want to include that honor and nobility don't suggest gassing in fight. And also you might want to include some of the traditions in Westeros, like yeilding. It would not be uncommon for someone doing something noble and honorable at the time to ask his cousin to yield given his station. Rhaegar is also not suggested to have disliked Robert and was still considering him family up to the moment he went to the trident. At odds yes but we never got him saying he hated Robert or felt the same about Robert as Robert felt about him.

Selmy also makes a suggestion that Rhaegar may have lacked that killer instinct. Skilled but not a warrior. Where Selmy may have gone for the kill Rhaegar may not have. Though that's just my opinion on his comment.

[Boarsbane]

That's very sad. He's dead and people is worried to recover the rubies :/

About them fighting, I always thought that Robert accused him of stealing Lyanna from him and Rhaegar simply shrugged it off or said "she didn't love you". To me, Robert -when he says that Rhaegar "won"- knows deep inside that she wanted Rhaegar and not him.

Untrue and untrue.

Robert was well recovering and well kept by the whores. He even got so good tended that he fathered a girl.

Also, musicians are strong. Have you see all the drugs and hard lives they live and they fucking survive until their 80s nowadays??

Wasn't Jon Con looking for him while he was practically hiding under the whores's beds?

Was he supposed to go out and face the loyalist army by himself? Although it does makes Jon Con look rather stupid, since Robert's whoring was no secret and you would think a brothel would be a logical spot to start the search.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'd forgotten about that.

Even better.

Also agree on Robert knowing the truth deep down inside, though Rhaegar planted the seed by telling him.

Rhaegar doesn't look the kind of man who would make jokes or jab at other people. I can see him trying to reason with Robert and Robert losing it as soon as he heard the insinuation of Lyanna actually going to Rhaegar willingly and simply thinking Rhaegar was being cruel.

Was he supposed to go out and face the loyalist army by himself? Although it does makes Jon Con look rather stupid, since Robert's whoring was no secret and you would think a brothel would be a logical spot to start the search.

Well, some men would rather die facing an army than live by hiding under a bed. Honour, they call it.

(and yes, he looked everywhere and Robert kept moving and hiding).

[Ser Creighton]

Not really. If you are going to question Ned because he didn't see the actual fight, why are you taking what Jorah said so seriously when he also didn't witness the fight? It is cherry picking to try and make Robert look like a scumbag and Rhaegar the honorable knight.

Maybe a little, but it's Roberts own actions post war that may lead to this idea. Nobody asked him to be a drunken asshole he did that all on his own and made excuses for his bad behavior. Not tot say I don't like Robert, I think Robert had some good points, he could be very likable at times, not stupid either, but he also didn't like seeing the obvious or maybe dealing with it.

We don't know what happened you're right about that, but Robert kind of made himself look like a scumbag on his own, and he treated Ned like shit for the most part. He brought him in to be his advisor and then never took his advice, almost went to war with him. Maybe you like Robert and your entitled to your opinion, but I look at him as a guy who was a bad friend. Could be a lot of fun but tended towards extremes in personality, was used to getting his way, didn't listen all that well, seemed a little spoiled and losing did not appear an option for him I don't think he cared what the situation was.

He may have beat him head on for all I know, but there is some information that kind of hints that something else may have happened. Maybe I am wrong and I am seeing it wrong or reading it wrong. If so I am fine with it, not all that crucial to me how it went down. Whatever it is I am going on suggested personalities and what may be hints. If other people notice the same thing Yig noticed maybe something is there. I have thought about that before, I know the idea well.

By the way big guys generally gas faster than lighter guys and Robert was huge, you know the heart has to feed all that muscle and the lungs have to supply all that oxygen to the blood. But who knows it's a magic world.

[Boarsbane]

Well, some men would rather die facing an army than live by hiding under a bed. Honour, they call it.

(and yes, he looked everywhere and Robert kept moving and hiding).

Stupidity is what it would be.

And does it say Robert kept moving around? Even if it does, he stayed in the brothel long enough to have sex with almost every whore there.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

wrong thread - delete -

[A Bastard Snow]

Jon apparently thought it would be more honorable for Robert to ride out solo against several hundred men.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Stupidity is what it would be.

And does it say Robert kept moving around? Even if it does, he stayed in the brothel long enough to have sex with almost every whore there.

Jon Connington's flaw wasn't stupidity: he was young and naive, pretty much like Ned, thinking everybody saw honour as he did.

"Robert Baratheon had been hiding somewhere in the town, wounded and alone. [...] He would slay the rebel lord himself and carve a place out for himself in all the histories of the Seven Kingdoms.

And so he swept down on Stoney Sept, closed off the town, and began a search. His knights went house to house, smashed in every door, peered into every cellar. He had even sent men crawling through the sewers, yet somehow Robert still eluded him. The townsfolk were hiding him. They moved him from one secret bolt-hole to the next, always one step ahead of the king's men. The whole town was a nest of traitors. At the end they had the usurper hidden in a brothel. What sort of king was that, who would hide behind the skirts of women? Yet whilst the search dragged on, Eddard Stark and Hoster Tully came down upon the town with a rebel army. Bells and battle followed, and Robert emerged from his brothel with a blade in hand, and almost slew Jon on the steps of the old sept that gave the town its name."

Is Jon lying? Hardly. We know that Bella recounts that Robert spent some time there, having sex with the whores and probably was his own father. Nice. Really. He wasn't hiding behind the skirts of women but inside.

Was Jon going to send his men to him and kill him once found it? Again, hardly. He speaks of killing him himself and looking for glory, so probably he wanted a single combat, something that, tbh, could have killed him instead. Yet, Robert didn't repay him with the same honour: he kept hiding until Ned and Hoster arrived, so, he only surfaced as soon as he knew they were there. Lovely.

[lareine]

Now that's a frightening thought. Pycelle trying to kill Elia in childbirth so Rhaegar would have to marry Cersei? Although I do think if he really did try to do that, he would have been more successful - noone would have noticed if he had made sure Elia died during or shortly after the birth of Rhaenys, for example.

It's just a pet crakpottery of mine that doesn't have any real textual proof :P

Though there is this from Jaime in ASOS:

Their father had summoned Cersei to court when she was twelve, hoping to make her a royal marriage. He refused every offer for her hand, preferring to keep her with him in the Tower of the Hand while she grew older and more womanly and ever more beautiful. No doubt he was waiting for Prince Viserys to mature, or perhaps for Rhaegar’s wife to die in childbed. Elia of Dorne was never the healthiest of women.

Elia may have been savvy enough to be wary of Pycelle and Tywin, but I can't imagine those two wouldn't have at least tried to undermine her health and/or fertility (or lie about it) in some way, especially since Pycelle had such intimate access to her and had to have known how much the prince wanted more children. Alia's also pointed out to me that it would somewhat mirror the Tyrell's later plots to have Robert set Cersei aside in favor of Margaery. But again, this is all just my own wild speculation :D

The passage that Ygrain posted between Tyrion and Pycelle I do find really interesting because it makes the reader ponder the same questions that Tyrion does; When Pycelle persuaded Aerys to open the gates of KL to Tywin, was that really the first time he had betrayed the royal family in service to the Lannisters? What else could Pycelle have done on their behalf while he was Grand Maester to the Targaryens and when did he start doing it? As Ygrain pointed out, it has implications way beyond just getting rid of Elia. It's a fascinating subject that I've always wanted to see explored in more depth.

[Lyse Stark]

It's just a pet crakpottery of mine that doesn't have any real textual proof :P

Though there is this from Jaime in ASOS:

Elia may have been savvy enough to be wary of Pycelle and Tywin, but I can't imagine those two wouldn't have at least tried to undermine her health and/or fertility (or lie about it) in some way, especially since Pycelle had such intimate access to her and had to have known how much the prince wanted more children. Alia's also pointed out to me that it would somewhat mirror the Tyrell's later plots to have Robert set Cersei aside in favor of Margaery. But again, this is all just my own wild speculation :D

The passage that Ygrain posted between Tyrion and Pycelle I do find really interesting because it makes the reader ponder the same questions that Tyrion does; When Pycelle persuaded Aerys to open the gates of KL to Tywin, was that really the first time he had betrayed the royal family in service to the Lannisters? What else could Pycelle have done on their behalf while he was Grand Maester to the Targaryens and when did he start doing it? As Ygrain pointed out, it has implications way beyond just getting rid of Elia. It's a fascinating subject that I've always wanted to see explored in more depth.

And the fact that it was a possibility in my opinion that Rhaegar rejected Cersei when he saw her true nature from looking into her eyes. Eyes can be windows in the soul, and I think that the day they met Rhaegar sensed that something was off with Cersei and rejected her.

[Firiel Hiren]

One of the reasons I like GRRM is that his characters act realistically even if they are minor characters.

Ned comes home from this war over his raped sister with a baby.

It is not realistic to pretend that no one would suspect. Catelyn first but Barbrey Dustin and even Robert knows how many times Lyanna was raped and no one guesses it is Lyanna and Rhaegar's child?

Either everyone is stupid in the seven kingdoms and we are all way smarter or there is a piece of information that they have about Rhaegar's whereabouts that we do not have that precludes him as the father.

Personally, I think Aerys the known rapist in the story is the father and he took Lyanna after he noticed his son crowning her because he was jealous of his son and wanted to be the father of TPTWP himself. Rhaegar then goes to try to save her. I think he did love her.

This also fits with the Luke Skywalker theme as Dany would turn out to be his long lost half sister and Darth would be Aerys. It fits with Ser Barristan's recollection about how things might have worked out differently at the Tourney at Harrenhal if he had named Ashara Queen of Love & Beauty. It also explains why Ned thinks Rhaegar is such a great guy and why Lyanna disappeared in such a way that left her family forced to track her down and get murdered instead of leaving in such a way that that wouldn't happen.

I have yet to see any explanation that negates this theory or that explains why everyone in the seven kingdoms doesn't guess that Jon Snow is Rhaegar's. I doubt that any shenanigans would get by Lady Dustin at the minimum. She knows more about Stark men than anyone, lol.

[J. Stargaryen]

snip

Welcome to the forums. :cheers:

Lyanna became pregnant some months into the war. The Citadel essay (Link) speculates anywhere from 1-3 months. The war was post-abduction, so the timeline doesn't fit for A+L=J.