R+L =J, v. 77

[The guy from the Vale]

He just didn't take into account denial, the grrrr-pretty-boy-musician-always-gets-the-lady-arghhhh type :rolleyes:

Because GRRM totally hates pretty boy musicians. Oh, wait...

[J. Stargaryen]

He just didn't take into account denial, the grrrr-pretty-boy-musician-always-gets-the-lady-arghhhh type :rolleyes:

Speaking of denial, we're such an interesting species. I don't know if I've ever come across someone who wasn't intelligent enough to understand R+L=J, at least when it was explained to them. Yet there is a small but persistent percentage of R+L=/=Jers out there. Ah, human nature.

Then again, it's clear that not understanding certain concepts, such as red herrings, does hinder the ability to fully grasp the strength of the case. Maybe we're not so interesting after all. :lol:

[FrozenFire3]

Because GRRM totally hates pretty boy musicians. Oh, wait...

Oh, yeah... rocky feelings and (blue) flower power :lol:

You know. It's unprecedent the level of conflictual feelings some people get from reading a mere fictional work. I mean, if storyline and characterization bother you (as in generic you) so much, just stop reading instead of masochistically keeping on growling over this or that character, this or that arc, the use of this or that cliché/trope/archetype. As far as I know, doctors don't prescribe AsoIaF for anger management training purposes ;) The storyteller tells HIS story not the story we oh-so-much-invested-ourselves-in. Free to listen or change channel.

Speaking of denial, we're such an interesting species. I don't know if I've ever come across someone who wasn't intelligent enough to understand R+L=J, at least when it was explained to them. Yet there is a small but persistent percentage of R+L=/=Jers out there. Ah, human nature.

Then again, it's clear that not understanding certain concepts, such as red herrings, does hinder the ability to fully grasp the strength of the case. Maybe we're not so interesting after all. :lol:

I've several friends who got into ASoIaF after watching the series on tv. Strange enough, most of them arrived to the same conclusions of this thread (with or without the help of the web) and are quite ok with it. No conflictual feelings of sorts there, just a general sense of intrigued expectation/trepidation. Then I come to this boards and my RL statistics gets upturned :dunno:

[FittleLinger]

Oh, yeah... rocky feelings and (blue) flower power :lol:

You know. It's unprecedent the level of conflictual feelings some people get from reading a mere fictional work. I mean, if storyline and characterization bother you (as in generic you) so much, just stop reading instead of masochistically keeping on growling over this or that character, this or that arc, the use of this or that cliché/trope/archetype. As far as I know, doctors don't prescribe AsoIaF for anger management training purposes ;) The storyteller tells HIS story not the story we oh-so-much-invested-ourselves-in. Free to listen or change channel.

I've several friends who got into ASoIaF after watching the series on tv. Strange enough, most of them arrived to the same conclusions of this thread (with or without the help of the web) and are quite ok with it. No conflictual feelings of sorts there, just a general sense of intrigued expectation/trepidation. Then I come to this boards and my RL statistics gets upturned :dunno:

I guess most of the denial comes from not wanting Jon sitting the throne for some reason. Which of course is itself based on the faulty presumption that once Jon finds out, someone will just give the throne to him.

[The guy from the Vale]

I guess most of the denial comes from not wanting Jon sitting the throne for some reason. Which of course is itself based on the faulty presumption that once Jon finds out, someone will just give the throne to him.

Of course Jon might sit on the throne in the end, and such a revelation could even be justification to him for actually sitting there. But that's in no way a given, and Jon being Rhaegar's son does absolutely not lead to him sitting the throne directly. If Jon becomes king, it will be because of his accomplishments first and foremost. His heritage mightt at best be the reason for him not to refuse.

[Alia of the knife]

And the fact that it was a possibility in my opinion that Rhaegar rejected Cersei when he saw her true nature from looking into her eyes. Eyes can be windows in the soul, and I think that the day they met Rhaegar sensed that something was off with Cersei and rejected her.

And I know there have been some questions raised as to why he might be able to read Cersei, but not Gregor, and I simply think he that someone like Gregor was better at hiding his true nature as opposed to Cersei who seemds to do NOTHING to hide her behaviors.

Anyone that physically abuses her little brother IN the presence of others, (i.e., Elia and Oberyn), doesn't seem to think there is a problem. :blink: Gregor is a little more accustomed to abusing and hiding it going all the way back to Sandor.

No, my read on the events at Casterly Rock is that everything seemed to be a go until something happened, and the author presents us with that magical moment in Cerseis life where she is meeting the destiny Tywin has prepared her for her whole life, and then all of a sudden- nothing.

That moment which the Author dwells on is the moment that Rhagar and Cersei look into each others eys; she goes into detail about what she sees, but what is deliberately left out is what Rhaegar sees, and then boom, it's over.

Everyone is going home, and a rift has taken place. Aerys and Rhaegar had to have some idea as to why they were going to Casterly Rock, and while I do think that Aerys had perhaps had in mind a woman with dragons blood, Rhaegar, who had some influence on his father, would have been the final motivation for the rejection as he likely could have argued the merits of marrying Cersei.

There is also the amazing lack of jealousy on Jaimies part towards Rhaegar given that he also loved Cersei.

And if I'm not mistaken of the timeline, Eilas mother has come to Casterly Rock with her children, but Joanna had already died, Tywin told her that Cersei was meant for Rhaegar, Elia and Oberyn witess Cersies cruelty, and then later, their mother approaches Aerys, hinting that it would help to keep Dorne, and then Tywin hosts Aerys and Rhaegar and makes the offer, so plenty of opportunity to further plant the seeds of discord between Tywin and Aerys for which Elia and her children would pay dearly for at Tywins hands.

It also plays into the vicious cycle of 'what-ifs," regrets and "paths not taken," cycles of revenge with the unintended results, that are throughout the story. Cersei has spent a bitter life blaming others and the gods for not being Rhaegars wife, when, speculatively speaking, it was Rhaegar all along, and it is eerlily similar to Roberts own musings.

[King Benjen II]

Can we get a Rhaegar POV please?

[Firiel Hiren]

Why even bother to finish the series? These guys have it all figured out.

Don't bother posting because they will mock you and accuse you of everything from not reading to being too stupid to understand.

Well, I understand enough to recognize a bully when I see one and to know when I am being insulted. It makes me very sad and it is a shame. I had hoped to find open minded and kind conversation about a common interest.

Sorry for interrupting... I genuinely am shocked as I was under the impression this was a discussion forum not a lecture.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Can we get a Rhaegar POV please?

He's dead, Jim.

[Alia of the knife]

He's dead, Jim.

:P

[FittleLinger]

When I look back on my first read, one of the crucial reasons of why I didn't catch it, was because I wasn't aware that I am already provided with the means to figure it out. I always thought there was some crucial evidence that isn't revealed yet, as the series are not finished yet.

That's what makes it a good mystery - it makes you ask the wrong question, it is disguised as a non-/ more minor mystery, and the clues are layed out in such a way that you don't immediately get that they are actually clues.

[The guy from the Vale]

@Fittle

It was the same in my case. I simply thought there would be some evidence in one of the later books...

[Han Snow]

Why even bother to finish the series? These guys have it all figured out.

Don't bother posting because they will mock you and accuse you of everything from not reading to being too stupid to understand.

Well, I understand enough to recognize a bully when I see one and to know when I am being insulted. It makes me very sad and it is a shame. I had hoped to find open minded and kind conversation about a common interest.

Sorry for interrupting... I genuinely am shocked as I was under the impression this was a discussion forum not a lecture.

I think you are taking some of the previous posts too personally, no one was directing any nasty words directly and specifically towards you. It was just general statements about fans and people who tend to come here riding their high horse claiming with fervent conviction that for whatever reason they have it right and that this theory is wrong. Then, when asked to present their case, to back it up with the actual text, with simple logic and reason, and when they can't and are shown how this and that simply doesn't fit or work within the story, they get upset and accusative. So I hope you can understand how some of the regulars may seem weary when approaching new posters, but I really don't think anyone was trying to be offensive specifically towards you.

[MtnLion]

:lol:

When I read some of these R+L=J counter arguments I'm reminded of the idiom: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

"Bed of blood," "blue flower in a wall of ice," etc. GRRM makes some of this stuff pretty obvious if you pay attention. I genuinely believe that he wants some people to get R+L=J, that he's always wanted that. Which is why he's left clue after clue in the series.

Sorry I brought that up earlier. :lol:

GRRM has it laid out, and many subtlties included to enhance the reread after the final exposition. I am sure that he has found a great source of amusement in crafting these little easter-eggs for his avid fans. ;)

[MtnLion]

<snip>

First, let's examine what we know about Lyanna. She entered Prince Rhaegar's company (Robert says that she was abducted, but he has an ego induced reason to thinks so), with Oswell and Arthur also present. Brandon receives word that has him ride for King's Landing and demand that Prince Rhaegar come out and die, we assume that it is something very inflammatory about Lyanna, but Lyanna is never mentioned. When Brandon is arrested Aerys inquires about Rhaegar's whereabouts, and no one knows. No one knows where Rhaegar is when Hightower is tasked with finding him and returning him to the Red Keep, months later. Hightower did not return with Rhaegar, but we know that Rhaegar always (with the only exception of actually staying at Summerhall) travelled with his bodyguards, Whent and Dayne. The next time we find those three in the story, they are at the tower of joy; as it is named by Rhaegar. Lyanna is also present. It certainly seems like Lyanna and Rhaegar, with bodyguards traveled eventually to the tower of joy, and that Hightower remained there when Rhaegar returned to King's Landing, also tasking Oswell and Arthur to return and await him.

Lyanna was not in the presence of Aerys. If Aerys had known where she was, wouldn't she have made a fine hostage? Aerys was fond of his hostages, and wasn't above using Jaime or Elia as such.

For your timeline questions, I think you will find some pretty reliable ones if you check the FAQs on page one of this thread. None of them are perfect.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Why even bother to finish the series? These guys have it all figured out.

Don't bother posting because they will mock you and accuse you of everything from not reading to being too stupid to understand.

Well, I understand enough to recognize a bully when I see one and to know when I am being insulted. It makes me very sad and it is a shame. I had hoped to find open minded and kind conversation about a common interest.

Sorry for interrupting... I genuinely am shocked as I was under the impression this was a discussion forum not a lecture.

Yeah I mean the thing is, there is a massive amount of textual support to R+L=J. If someone disagrees then they better have just as much evidence to back up their alternate idea. Of course that evidence does not exist and it could not be more obvious that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. If you do have other ideas my suggestion is to start your own thread, this thread and all the regulars on it are in complete agreement about who Jon's parents are. Also when you only have 13 posts IMO it is best to read and post in a lot of threads and learn all the theories and listen to others before coming on the longest running chain and throwing insults around. It wont get you anywhere except angry.

[MtnLion]

<snip>

Mercy Arya O-Ren Ishii

Loved the new sample chapter. ;)

"You'll need to carry me."

[Ygrain]

Mercy Arya O-Ren Ishii

Loved the new sample chapter. ;)

"You'll have to carry me."

"He knows the line."

It gave me such a warm, fuzzy feeling... and sweet.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Mercy Arya O-Ren Ishii

Loved the new sample chapter. ;)

"You'll need to carry me."

haha, Love it!!!! SOOOO good. I can't even describe how much I loved the chapter!!!

[Ser Creighton]

I guess most of the denial comes from not wanting Jon sitting the throne for some reason. Which of course is itself based on the faulty presumption that once Jon finds out, someone will just give the throne to him.

I will never get the Iron throne thing, with any character. Something must be wrong with me, I totally ignore it. Yeah it is part of the story, but I figure if it applies to a major POV, that it is an end game deal and by then the books will be ending and I am not really looking forward to that. It also feels like a distraction to me, and honestly if I was king, I am selling it as scrap metal and getting a lazy boy, the kind the vibrates and has a cup holder.