R+L =J, v. 77

[Lord Greystark]

I am sorry but Blood Raven did not keep Dark Sister. There is no way in seven hells. Lord Brynden Rivers was arrested and thrown in a black cell by King Maekar. Anyone who has read the Dunk and Egg stories knows full well that Maekar hated Bloodraven because King Daeron 2 named Bloodraven hand instead of his own brother. Therefore it is definitely not a stretch to assume that the blade known as Dark Sister was confiscated. As I have mentioned before I personally believe Dunk is destined to wield the blade into the flames of Summerhall.

Now if you were Egg, who would you give your family's ancestral blade to? Dunk (who by now is probably lord commander of the kingsguard) or Bloodraven (who you are sending to the night's watch, escorted by none other than Lord commander dunk).

[Ludo]

@paper waver:

I agree with you that Eddards death brought along the comet, too. I believe that Eddard was Nissa Nissa for the Stark children. The prophecy/half trained mule has to be read backwards: first the innocent, beloved wife is killed, than the lion and in the end there is more than one sword. Jon and Arya loved Eddard more than anything in the world, and he was a selfless man who risked his family for the sake of three children born of incest that he didn't even like. While that might not have been a smart move, it was definately one that proves his integrity. I think this is the killing of Nissa Nissa. The Lannisters reforge the sword. To me this refers to it being tempered in the Lions heart. After this the blade breaks and there are two swords. Maybe the steel has to be tempered once more in the deep cool pool in Winterfell? Widows Wail and Oathkeeper are lightbringer to be carried by Jon and Arya.

The dragons where born the day eddard died after dany sacrifices/kills her beloved Drogo. They are also powerful weapons who will be needed in the long night. The comet appears the day after that as well. Just now a certain dwarf/lion is very close to the dragons with a magical horn in presense. I believe this is the Nissa Nissa prophecy again.

The dragon must have three heads so there is more than one hero and he needs more than one weapon so the "forging" of said weapons has to happen more than once as well.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

... Eddards death brought along the comet ... is the killing of Nissa Nissa ...

I like that thought and the next.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I am sorry but Blood Raven did not keep Dark Sister. There is no way in seven hells. Lord Brynden Rivers was arrested and thrown in a black cell by King Maekar. Anyone who has read the Dunk and Egg stories knows full well that Maekar hated Bloodraven because King Daeron 2 King Aerys I named Bloodraven hand instead of his own brother. Therefore it is definitely not a stretch to assume that the blade known as Dark Sister was confiscated. As I have mentioned before I personally believe Dunk is destined to wield the blade into the flames of Summerhall.

Now if you were Egg, who would you give your family's ancestral blade to? Dunk (who by now is probably lord commander of the kingsguard) or Bloodraven (who you are sending to the night's watch, escorted by none other than Lord commander dunk).

Corrected that for you :)

But I agree with the overall thought. It was Maekar who had Bloodraven arrested. The chances of Bloodraven being allowed to keep Dark Sister are zero, and the chances of Maekar not giving the blade to someone else (or keeping it himself, since the loss of Blackfyre) are small. There is always the possibility of course, that Aegon V returned the blade to Bloodraven. If it had been any other King, I'd call those chances zero as well, but it's Egg, so you can never really be sure..

[Ygrain]

Agreed, Egg might have given him the blade.

Or, there is the option of Bloodraven knowing what was coming and hiding the sword, so it was never taken from him.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Agreed, Egg might have given him the blade.

Or, there is the option of Bloodraven knowing what was coming and hiding the sword, so it was never taken from him.

That would have made Maekar soooooo angry most likely.. :p

But that's possible as well, indeed

[aussie_ironborn]

hey guys just watched honest traliers GOT spoof, its quite good with a sneaky reference to r+l=j

www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVaD8rouJn0‎

[J. Stargaryen]

hey guys just watched honest traliers GOT spoof, its quite good with a sneaky reference to r+l=j

www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVaD8rouJn0‎

Welcome to the forums. :cheers:

As usual, Honest Trailers nailed it. The Sean Bean part ... I can't even ... :lol:

[Ludo]

Loved it!

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Welcome to the forums. :cheers:

As usual, Honest Trailers nailed it. The Sean Bean part ... I can't even ... :lol:

:agree:

[Ygrain]

Welcome to the forums. :cheers:

As usual, Honest Trailers nailed it. The Sean Bean part ... I can't even ... :lol:

:agree:

Sean Bean curse, I'd call it :D

[Ghost's Shadow]

Stop teasing me and just say it out loud already. :lol:

[FrozenFire3]

"... you know what I'm talking about" :lmao:

[Ghost's Shadow]

Say no more, I get it. :P

[C0bR]

I think that is exactly how the fight went down, because indeed, Rhaegar almost killed Robert.
And I'll even speculate that in the end, Robert, though wounded, managed to do something dirty and "cheated" by their standards.
So even in fighting, Robert still came up wanting.

No, he did not almost kill him. The injury is never described as anything severe. In fact Robert's injury was almost surely minimal, considering he was well enough to accept surrenders immediately after the battle, lend his own maester to Barristan, dispatch Ned to KL and arrive there by himself only a short time later to witness the dead bodies of Elia and children. The most likely injury is a minor to semi-serious cut, which would've opened and festered if he attempted to race on horse to KL with Ned, so he was given a short time off for the wound to heal well enough and would not have to arrive to KL in a cart.

Sepsis was the greatest killer of medieval battles. Not swords of men.

Rhaegar was described as chivalrous and honorable, and he likely would have dismounted if Robert lost his horse.

No he was not. Not once in the books is he described as chivalrous or honorable. I have not idea why people always say this.

Additionaly there is absolutely no reason to believe that he was somehow more honorable and chivalrous in battle than Robert, other than blind fanboyism.

In fact of the two, only Robert is actually described as a chivalrous knight.

[Ygrain]

No he was not. Not once in the books is he described as chivalrous or honorable. I have not idea why people always say this.

"Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably" - does it ring a bell?

[C0bR]

"Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably" - does it ring a bell?

Being honorable and "fighting honorably" are two different things.

Also that quote is really just a romantic crap without a real meaning or substance. In context it is practically non-sensical. Noble knights honorably fighting? Where are the charming maidens, Jorah? Yeah... I suppose GRRM thought it sounded cool.

[Han Snow]

Being honorable and "fighting honorably" are two different things.

Also that quote is really just a romantic crap without a real meaning or substance. In context it is practically non-sensical. Noble knights honorably fighting? Where are the charming maidens, Jorah? Yeah... I suppose GRRM thought it sounded cool.

I presume you don't like Rhaegar much for whatever reason.

[Ygrain]

Being honorable and "fighting honorably" are two different things.

Also that quote is really just a romantic crap without a real meaning or substance. In context it is practically non-sensical. Noble knights honorably fighting? Where are the charming maidens, Jorah? Yeah... I suppose GRRM thought it sounded cool.

Can you show me an example of a dishonorable person fighting honorably?

Blind fanboyism is equally bad as blind hatred. If you followed the discussion up the thread, then you must have seen where it came from - the discrepancy in the account of the duel, which was supposedly on horseback but the HotU vision shows Rhaegar dying afoot (sinking to his knees). And, as the quote from Barristan confirms, dismounting when your opponent loses his horse is the honourable thing to do, so perhaps, just perhaps, the Jorah quote may actually have some substance.

[C0bR]

Can you show me an example of a dishonorable person fighting honorably?

Blind fanboyism is equally bad as blind hatred. If you followed the discussion up the thread, then you must have seen where it came from - the discrepancy in the account of the duel, which was supposedly on horseback but the HotU vision shows Rhaegar dying afoot (sinking to his knees). And, as the quote from Barristan confirms, dismounting when your opponent loses his horse is the honourable thing to do, so perhaps, just perhaps, the Jorah quote may actually have some substance.

Sure. Victarion Greyjoy

or Jaime Lannister

This kind of fiction is filled with disgusting, immoral and villanous bastards who also ironically revel in battles and won't cross their "codes of honor" in them and will accept a "honorable" death.

(also note that in my opinion any notion of honor in a full scale battle is stupid and melodramatical and I am not even sure what should I really picture under the term, but I went with it here)

With my original post I was countering these points:

1) Rhaegar almost killed Robert (no support for that in the text)

2) Rhaegar is chivalrous and honorable (no support for that in the text either, him fighting honorably is a different thing and the quote is peculiar at best anyway)

2) Rhaegar is somehow more honorable and chivalrous than that bastard Robert who surely must've cheated (once again, no support, in fact, Robert is the only one mentioned in context with chivalry by Barristan, who had a chance to say the same thing about Rhaegar)

I have no problem with your interpretation of the battle. It's a possibility. Just like tons of others. The quote might have substance, but I don't see it (I shouldn't have acted like I know the truth of it with this one, for that I am sorry). I think Jorah is simply going with the same romantic representation of the fight that we get. Even if he has been present near the duel, I doubt he had a time to admire the "honor" of it.

Anyway, if that scenario happened, then dismounting may have been a honorable thing to do.

It would've also been infinitely more practical thing to do.

You know what is a one thing you will almost never find in military history?

Epic duels in battles. Maintaining a prolonged duel in battle is basically impossible. Maintaining a duel on horses in a river current on slippery stones when surrounded by men is completly impossible. Trying to chase somebody on foot while riding horse in that situation is just ridiculous. If Rhaegar really knocked Robert off (or Robert's horse broke his foot on slippery stones or anything), then I strongly doubt that he dismounted because he thought "Damn, I better dismount, as it is a honorable thing to do." He was dumb, but not that dumb.

Also, my on take the fight - the easiest explanation of Rhaegar going on his knees might be the simple fact that he was struck in his chest by a warhammer wielded by a 250 lbs man... Knights fell from horses after lesser blows.

I presume you don't like Rhaegar much for whatever reason.

Nice guess