R+L =J, v. 77

[Fire Eater]

I've recently realised a discrepancy which I do not recall discussed. In the HotU vision, we have

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name.

If that was indeed an image of the past, that would mean that Rhaegar fought afoot. However, in Ned's recollection in AGOT, we have

The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert’s hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it.

It makes more sense for them to fight on horseback; however, there is a slight problem - Ned actually never saw the combat:

When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.

Where am I going with this? I've always wondered what exactly Jorah Mormont meant when he said:

Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honourably. And Rhaegar died.

I started to wonder: would it be possible that both accounts are actually true? That the fight started on horseback but Robert fell off his horse (perhaps when he took a wound from Rhaegar), and Rhaegar dismounted because it was the honourable thing to do?

We do have another example of a renowned warrior whose honour cost him his life, after all:

Daemon fought "like the Warrior himself". He defeated Ser Gwayne Corbray of the Kingsguard in single combat. Then, instead of attacking Prince Maekar's forces, he defended the wounded Corbray and had him carried off the field.

In the mean time, Brynden Rivers and his personal guard of archers, the Raven's Teeth, had found a spot from which they could rain their arrows down upon Daemon's position. Daemon and his twin 12 year old sons, Aemon and Aegon, were killed.

Actually, I had suspected that for a long while. Rhaegar andd Robert were both knights, and they would have been mounted for battle. Robert could have been knocked off his horse by Rhaegar.

"A chivalrous man would dismount," Arstan [barristan] said.

Rhaegar was described as chivalrous and honorable, and he likely would have dismounted if Robert lost his horse.

And the fact that it was a possibility in my opinion that Rhaegar rejected Cersei when he saw her true nature from looking into her eyes. Eyes can be windows in the soul, and I think that the day they met Rhaegar sensed that something was off with Cersei and rejected her.

Or he could have seen her push Melara into the well if it occurred in that time frame. If Rhaegar did witness, he felt there was nothing he could do about it as Tywin would take that as an insult, not to mention it would create strife between the Lannisters and Hetherspoons. Although, you theory is just as likely, Rhaegar could have been as good at reading people as he was at books, and seen what kind of person she was on the inside.

[Firiel Hiren]

I guess there must be a record somewhere that I have missed where it shows Lyanna's and everyone else's whereabouts during all these months? Please point it out... i think that is the whole missing piece in all the theories.

Also, this doesn't explain why no one suspects Rhaegar.

[J. Stargaryen]

I guess there must be a record somewhere that I have missed where it shows Lyanna's and everyone else's whereabouts during all these months? Please point it out... i think that is the whole missing piece in all the theories.

Also, this doesn't explain why no one suspects Rhaegar.

Did you bother to read the essay I linked for you?

Aerys Targaryen: Ashara Dayne is impossible, due to both having features quite different from the Starks, as well as the highly unlikely chance that she was in King’s Landing at this time. The same can be said about Wylla, unless Wylla was not in the service of the Daynes at this time, but then the whole question of just why Eddard Stark would claim her child as his own blood seems very curious; presumably it would be to protect the child from Robert’s hatred of Targaryens, but why passing the child off as his blood is a more natural and better choice than passing him off as some loyal soldier’s or something such makes this seem very doubtful. Aerys with Lyanna is the only one that could certainly work genetically, although this would require her to be in King’s Landing at around the time of conception, which does not seem to be the case. If she was with Rhaegar, she was not there when Brandon and his father were killed at what was essentially the start of the war, and she was not there by the last few months of the war. Could Rhaegar have brought her to King’s Landing at some point between the start of the war and the conception? It seems improbable, given that the area of the first three months of the war eventually featured Robert and his forces in the stormlands on the move, making such journeys hazardous.

No one suspects Rhaegar as the father because Ned claims Jon as his own son. People find it easier to accept that he fathered a bastard rather than imagine he's committing treason against his BFF by harboring a Targaryen, after they had just finished fighting a rebellion against them.

[Firiel Hiren]

Yes. Mr. Stargaryen... but it says "if" Lyanna was with Rhaegar which is a huge if and the fact is we don't know where she was at all. That essay makes assumptions. We don't know and it certainly is possible she was smuggled into the palace like Illyrio, Shae, etc.

Just because I haven't posted a lot doesn't mean I haven't read alot.

[J. Stargaryen]

Yes. Mr. Stargaryen... but it says "if" Lyanna was with Rhaegar which is a huge if and the fact is we don't know where she was at all. That essay makes assumptions. We don't know and it certainly is possible she was smuggled into the palace like Illyrio, Shae, etc.

Just because I haven't posted a lot doesn't mean I haven't read alot.

Nothing anywhere in any of the text or SSMs suggests Lyanna was anywhere but with Rhaegar post-kidnap. The last we hear of her prior to her disappearance is that Rhaegar kidnapped her. The next time she shows up, chronologically, she's with the guys who were accompanying Rhaegar + Hightower, who had been sent to retrieve Rhaegar. Hmm. What do those bookends tell you?

Wrt Aerys, we have text that suggesting that Lyanna was not around him post-kidnap.

And, just because we can't rule something out with 1000000000% certainty, doesn't constitute an argument in its favor. All of these theories, including yours, require certain assumptions. So, again, not really a valid argument.

[Ser Creighton]

Nothing anywhere in any of the text or SSMs suggests Lyanna was anywhere but with Rhaegar post-kidnap. The last we hear of her prior to her disappearance is that Rhaegar kidnapped her. The next time she shows up, chronologically, she's with the guys who were accompanying Rhaegar + Hightower, who had been sent to retrieve Rhaegar. Hmm. What do those bookends tell you?

Wrt Aerys, we have text that suggesting that Lyanna was not around him post-kidnap.

And, just because we can't rule something out with 1000000000% certainty, doesn't constitute an argument in its favor. All of these theories, including yours, require certain assumptions. So, again, not really a valid argument.

They are calling you Mr. Now?

Pretty sure she was at the Tower of Joy, and that's where the White Bull found Rhaegar. Pretty sure that's inn the books. Mr.? Really? I thought your dad was Mr. Stargaryen. Seriously did I miss something did the Tower of Joy and kidnapping not happen now, were they removed from the books?

I thought the thread was a little unbalanced earlier, so I wrote an irrational post, you know wanted to make sure everyone knew where they were at, felt the need to add balance to the forum verse, you may have all gotten confused and thought you were in the Matrix or something with to many rational posts. Looks like I jumped the gun, have fun with this one.

[J. Stargaryen]

They are calling you Mr. Now?

Pretty sure she was at the Tower of Joy, and that's where the White Bull found Rhaegar. Pretty sure that's inn the books. Mr.? Really? I thought your dad was Mr. Stargaryen. Seriously did I miss something did the Tower of Joy and kidnapping not happen now, were they removed from the books?

I thought the thread was a little unbalanced earlier, so I wrote an irrational post, you know wanted to make sure everyone knew where they were at, felt the need to add balance to the forum verse, you may have all gotten confused and thought you were in the Matrix or something with to many rational posts. Looks like I jumped the gun, have fun with this one.

:lol:

When I read some of these R+L=J counter arguments I'm reminded of the idiom: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

"Bed of blood," "blue flower in a wall of ice," etc. GRRM makes some of this stuff pretty obvious if you pay attention. I genuinely believe that he wants some people to get R+L=J, that he's always wanted that. Which is why he's left clue after clue in the series.

[Ygrain]

I'm so excited you brought this up Ygrain! The part in red has always been one of my secret crackpots. Knowing how much Tywin wanted Cersei to marry Rhaegar it would be very out of character for him not to take advantage of Pycelle's position as grand maester to undermine her rival. In ADWD, doesn't JonCon recall that it was the maesters who informed the prince that Elia would be unable to have more children?

Yes, it was the maesters. One wonders which maester(s).

For royal births there were likely a number of people attending Elia, not just Pycelle. Would Pycelle have had the gravitas to force other maesters to agree with his lying to Rhaegar and Elia?

Also, would Rhaegar and Elia have had their own maester as part of their household?

It might go the same as with Jon Arryn's maester - Pycelle sent him away. The parallel can be taken even further - Pycelle didn't have the guts to do the poisoning himself even though he knew that Cersei wanted Jon Arryn dead, but he helped the opportunity when it presented itself. It could have been the same with Elia - he wouldn't have dared to off the princess of Dorne but he might have hampered her healing in hope that she would succumb, and she didn't.

"A chivalrous man would dismount," Arstan [barristan] said.

Rhaegar was described as chivalrous and honorable, and he likely would have dismounted if Robert lost his horse.

Ah, I didn't remember that quote, thanks!

[horizon]

Perhaps it was George his idea to have R+L=J but now that he has read all the 77 threads (which kept him from writing ADWD/TWOW.... true story...lol) George is going to change it. Hahaha. Just to f*ck with everyone.

[Firiel Hiren]

My theory is just as valid as yours but at least you are willing to admit it can't be ruled out. I suppose it just seems too obvious to me and so I give the characters in the story the same ability to work things out for themselves and yet... no one suspects Rhaegar.

I guess it pleases you to provide conjecture as evidence and condescend (implication that I don't pay attention and that I am like a horse that won't drink) rather than supply evidence in text to dispute me. I choose not to respond in kind.

The facts are that we do not know where some of these characters were from the abduction until the Tower of Joy.

[corbon]

One of the reasons I like GRRM is that his characters act realistically even if they are minor characters.

Ned comes home from this war over his raped sister with a baby.

First error. The war was not over Lyanna, whatever Robert has deluded himself over time. The war was over Ned and Robert's heads. Simple facts we have from unbiased sources.

Second error, there is no evidence of rape and plenty of evidence against it.

Robert claims it, but he has literally no way of knowing even if it were true and is almost schitzophrenically psychotic over the subjects of Targaryens and Rhaegar. Robert needs to believe that because otherwise Lyanna rejected him in favour of his enemy and Roberts entire psyche is bound up in how his current miserable life would have all been different if Rhaegar hadn't stolen his lovely Lyanna (whom he never once showed any actual interest in as a person and clearly didn't know her at all, even Ned says so).

Bran says so but he's a kid who wasn't born at the time and just repeating the 'official' story (what the king says) that he has no doubt heard from various sources who also were not present around Lyanna and Rhaegar.

It is not realistic to pretend that no one would suspect. Catelyn first but Barbrey Dustin and even Robert knows how many times Lyanna was raped and no one guesses it is Lyanna and Rhaegar's child?

Its very very simple. They have an explanation right in front of them that fits all the known facts and is slightly naughty and slightly mysterious all at once. Its perfect. There is no need to be suspicious of more because they already got the answer 'figured out' and its one that is slighty mysterious and naughty and secretive but they figured it out anyway (aren't they smugly clever then!):

Ned and Ashara had an affair (naughty!), Ashara bore Ned a son (secret!), Ned took Jon back to his wife and other new son at Winterfell (salacious!), causing Ashara to commit suicide (shocking!). Naughty, mysterious, salacious, never admitted to in any way by Ned, fits all the 'facts' and is utterly wrong. But having worked this out, there is no need to speculate further. Jon even looks like Ned.

There is nothing connecting Rhaegar to Lyanna since the abduction (if you don't know about what happened at ToJ) and Rhaegar returned to KL long before Ned found Lyanna.

Thats also why we see the Ashara rumours frm a variety of uninformed sources. But not from Robert, who knew Ned well enough to discount it (he has his own belief involving Ned and the common girl Wylla (a much less dishonourable thing, a slip Robert can imagine and delight in Ned making), whom Ned then set up as a wetnurse, typically caring of him).

And besides, no one except Robert really thinks that Lyanna was raped. And even Robert knows in his heart that thats not true. He does, after all, complain that even though he killed Rhaegar Rhaegar still has her in the end. He knows the truth, even if he can't admit it to himself.

And as you say, thats exactly how people are in real life. Robert is the quintessential high school quarterback who never grew up and didn't get the life he imagined. He's now a drunken slob who self-deludes and refuses to face up to anything uncomfortable, or to own any of his many mistakes. Instead its all because his dream plan got messed up years ago.

Either everyone is stupid in the seven kingdoms and we are all way smarter or there is a piece of information that they have about Rhaegar's whereabouts that we do not have that precludes him as the father.

We have a lot more information than they do. They don't know about the Tower of Joy. They know only these things:

Rhaegar 'abducted' Lyanna about 13-14 months before he died.

Rhaegar returned to KL 1-6 months before he died, with no sign of Lyanna.

Ned returned Dawn to Starfall, implying he killed Arthur at some stage.

Ned took a bastard son that looks like him away from Starfall, and the young Lady at Starfall committed suicide.

Ned also found Lyanna's bones at some stage after the war and took them home.

Personally, I think Aerys the known rapist in the story is the father and he took Lyanna after he noticed his son crowning her because he was jealous of his son and wanted to be the father of TPTWP himself. Rhaegar then goes to try to save her. I think he did love her.

The conception has to be 2-4 months into the war due to the timing of the birth (and tied to Dany's birth and conception also). If Aerys was the rapist how come there is no mention of Lyanna between her abduction and the war starting and why is Brandon so upset at Rhaegar that he wants to kill him? How come Lyanna is not at KL around the whole Brandon/Rickard episode if she is stolen before that yet impregnated by stay-in-the-Red-Keep Aerys only months later?

Its not impossible, but its completely unsupported by any textual hints and needs some really ridiculous twisting and convoluting to work.

This also fits with the Luke Skywalker theme as Dany would turn out to be his long lost half sister and Darth would be Aerys. It fits with Ser Barristan's recollection about how things might have worked out differently at the Tourney at Harrenhal if he had named Ashara Queen of Love & Beauty. It also explains why Ned thinks Rhaegar is such a great guy and why Lyanna disappeared in such a way that left her family forced to track her down and get murdered instead of leaving in such a way that that wouldn't happen.

The Luke Skywalker thing is overblown. So some actor, with a not-very-bright reputation, says the situation reminds him of the Skywalker thing. Well, guess what, Jon Snow is rased by his uncle and the apparently great evil of his father's generation (the demonised guy on the other side) is... his real father. Just like Luke Skywalker.

Thats all there is to it. Alfie Allen is not reputed as a deep thinker, nor is he likely to have deep insights into the series. As I understand it, at least for the first few seasons, he didn't even read the books.

I have yet to see any explanation that negates this theory or that explains why everyone in the seven kingdoms doesn't guess that Jon Snow is Rhaegar's. I doubt that any shenanigans would get by Lady Dustin at the minimum. She knows more about Stark men than anyone, lol.

She knows one Stark man, and not one greatly involved.

My theory is just as valid as yours but at least you are willing to admit it can't be ruled out. I suppose it just seems too obvious to me and so I give the characters in the story the same ability to work things out for themselves and yet... no one suspects Rhaegar.

Having a theory doesn't make it valid. Having lots of textual clues, and all the literary stuff like metaphors, plot layers, symbolism etc, makes a theory valid. You have the right to hold a theory, but by any objective measure yours is not as valid as R+L=J. Its perfectly ok to bring it up to the light to discuss, but you then have to accept the failures it has when they are shown.

Its slightly unfortunate, but the reason most of these alternate theories fail is because they simply don't fit the facts. R+L=J does, which is why it always comes back as the comparison and standard.

There's nothing wrong with having alternate theories, even propposing them and testing them. But if they don't pass the tests, its not because people love R+L=J, or hate other theories, or can't abide differing opinions, its because they don't pass the tests.

The facts are that we do not know where some of these characters were from the abduction until the Tower of Joy.

No, thats not a fact, a piece of data, thats a hole, where there is no data.

Facts are

- that several characters think and several events imply that Rhaegar 'stole' Lyanna - abducted or willingly is another question entirely

- Ned believes Rhaegar named the ToJ

- Hightower was ordered by Aerys to find Rhaegar and get him back to KL, which he apparently did, since Rhaegar then turns up in KL

- both Lyanna and Hightower are next found at the place Rhaegar supposedly named

[lareine]

Yes, it was the maesters. One wonders which maester(s).

It might go the same as with Jon Arryn's maester - Pycelle sent him away. The parallel can be taken even further - Pycelle didn't have the guts to do the poisoning himself even though he knew that Cersei wanted Jon Arryn dead, but he helped the opportunity when it presented itself. It could have been the same with Elia - he wouldn't have dared to off the princess of Dorne but he might have hampered her healing in hope that she would succumb, and she didn't.

Ah, I didn't remember that quote, thanks!

Great example Ygrain! I agree, he wouldn't have been able to do anything too blatant but as you just so brilliantly illustrated, Pycelle is not above employing more subtle methods. He could have merely hampered Elia's recovery after she had a difficult delivery hoping she'd succumb and when she didn't he could have seized on the opportunity to declare it too dangerous for her to have more children. What's interesting to think about too is that up until Tywin resigns as hand only a year before the rebellion, Tywin, Cersei and Pycelle were all living in the Red Keep with the royal family as part of their household. Imagine the mischief those three could get up to :devil: I wouldn't put it past Tywin or Cersei to have numerous lackeys among the royal servants who would spy on them, read or obstruct their correspondences or drop something subtle and slow acting into their food or drink......

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

And the fact that it was a possibility in my opinion that Rhaegar rejected Cersei when he saw her true nature from looking into her eyes. Eyes can be windows in the soul, and I think that the day they met Rhaegar sensed that something was off with Cersei and rejected her.

This is still the part I'm having a problem with. That Rhaegar met Cersei, saw what she really was, and asked Aerys to decline Tywins proposal. Aerys already felt like people believed Tywin ruled the Seven Kingdoms, and not Aerys, so he had reasons enough to fear what people might say or think if he married Tywin's daughter to his own son, which would lead to Tywins grandson becomming a future king.

Because if Rhaegar is so good in reading people, then why did he believe until the end that Tywin would be willing to help the Targaryens? And perhaps even more striking, why did he knight Gregor Clegane, only a year before Gregor bursted into Maegor's Holdfast and killed Rhaegar's own heir, after which he raped and killed Rhaegars wife? Tywin Lannister said about 17 year old Gregor "He was huge and terrible in battle". That does not suggest a knightly personality to me, yet Rhaegar knighted the man anyway, and it can't have been as a favor to Tywin, because Tywin had already resigned as Hand a year before.

I'm not saying that Rhaegar had no people-skills at all. I'm just saying that saying that Aerys rejected Tywins proposal because Rhaegar saw Cersei for what she really was is a stretch, considering what we know about Aerys' grudge against Tywin already.

[J. Stargaryen]

My theory is just as valid as yours but at least you are willing to admit it can't be ruled out. I suppose it just seems too obvious to me and so I give the characters in the story the same ability to work things out for themselves and yet... no one suspects Rhaegar.

I guess it pleases you to provide conjecture as evidence and condescend (implication that I don't pay attention and that I am like a horse that won't drink) rather than supply evidence in text to dispute me. I choose not to respond in kind.

The facts are that we do not know where some of these characters were from the abduction until the Tower of Joy.

No it's not, and R+L=J isn't my theory. The fact that your theory can't be ruled out is not noteworthy, either. We also can't rule out that the entire series is a dream of Optimus Prime's.

You say "conjecture" as if it doesn't apply to every single theory out there, including A+L=J, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Sorry if you felt offended by my use of that idiom, but I'm sure you noticed I didn't single you out. There's a rinse, wash, repeat factor here, though. New user posts to tell us that (s)he's figured out Jon's parentage and it's not R+L=J! After this new user explains his or her theory, we point out why it doesn't work, including relevant links and quotes. (Btw, sorry for only linking you and quoting the Citadel essay. Is there anything specific, or even general, from the text that you feel would help clarify the case?) This is followed by new user saying things like "You don't know for sure!" and "You can't prove it didn't happen!" and so on. Seem familiar at all?

Sorry if you felt I was rude to you. It was not my intention. In my defense though, you were a little bit sarcastic when you replied to my initial response.

I guess there must be a record somewhere that I have missed where it shows Lyanna's and everyone else's whereabouts during all these months? Please point it out... i think that is the whole missing piece in all the theories.

So you don't respond in kind, you just initiate. Noted. ;)

[corbon]

We have a lot more information than they do. They don't know about the Tower of Joy. They know only these things:

Rhaegar 'abducted' Lyanna about 13-14 months before he died.

Rhaegar returned to KL 1-6 months before he died, with no sign of Lyanna.

Ned returned Dawn to Starfall, implying he killed Arthur at some stage.

Ned took a bastard son that looks like him away from Starfall, and the young Lady at Starfall committed suicide.

Ned also found Lyanna's bones at some stage after the war and took them home.

I should modify this actually.

Thats the most that most people know.

Its not even clear how many people know about Rhaegar and Lyanna. Robert claims thats why the went to war, but thats clearly bullshit from the historical timeline. There is no actual mention of Lyanna from the time she disappears, even again. Brandon doesn't seem to mention her, nor Rickard, nor Jon Arryn. Robert does years later. Clearly her 'abduction' is directly realted to Brandon's actions, yet who actually knows this? I would guess quite a few important people, perhaps even most of them, but there's not a lot of info floating around there that would cause them to know. I suspect they know because of things that were said 'offscreen' as it were, so I'm not claiming no one knows, just opointing out that there's not much to show its widely known.

Same thing for Lyanna's bones. The Starks know, and Ned told Robert, and Cersei clearly knows (from Robert if nothing else), and Barbrey Dustin knows (Ned brought her husbands horse back, probably with Lyanna's bones) but there's no reason too many other people particularly know or care. Again, I imagine most of the important or very clever people know, like Varys and Littlefinger, but it need not be general widely held knowledge.

[corbon]

This is still the part I'm having a problem with. That Rhaegar met Cersei, saw what she really was, and asked Aerys to decline Tywins proposal. Aerys already felt like people believed Tywin ruled the Seven Kingdoms, and not Aerys, so he had reasons enough to fear what people might say or think if he married Tywin's daughter to his own son, which would lead to Tywins grandson becomming a future king.

Because if Rhaegar is so good in reading people, then why did he believe until the end that Tywin would be willing to help the Targaryens? And perhaps even more striking, why did he knight Gregor Clegane, only a year before Gregor bursted into Maegor's Holdfast and killed Rhaegar's own heir, after which he raped and killed Rhaegars wife? Tywin Lannister said about 17 year old Gregor "He was huge and terrible in battle". That does not suggest a knightly personality to me, yet Rhaegar knighted the man anyway, and it can't have been as a favor to Tywin, because Tywin had already resigned as Hand a year before.

I'm not saying that Rhaegar had no people-skills at all. I'm just saying that saying that Aerys rejected Tywins proposal because Rhaegar saw Cersei for what she really was is a stretch, considering what we know about Aerys' grudge against Tywin already.

While not disagreeing that its a stretch, I'd note there is a significant difference between interactions with a potential mate and some random squire you've been asked to knight as a favour. Its perfectly reasonable to think Rhaegar might assess Cersei's character and not like what he sees, yet completely miss Gregor's character, even if there is little in the text to suggest this actually happened.

[Aesculapeous]

Perhaps what could be taken into consideration, was that Rhaegar was looking at Cersei as a potential wife. That would elicit numerous thoughts, analyses and comparisons which wouldn't normally arise in everyday situations. So it is entirely possible that he recognized the potential power-hunger in Cersei, but completely missed the utter insanity of Clegane.

[FittleLinger]

While not disagreeing that its a stretch, I'd note there is a significant difference between interactions with a potential mate and some random squire you've been asked to knight as a favour. Its perfectly reasonable to think Rhaegar might assess Cersei's character and not like what he sees, yet completely miss Gregor's character, even if there is little in the text to suggest this actually happened.

Kind of off-topic, but as weird as it seems, I think that Rhaegar kind of looked up on Gregor for his pure battle prowess. Rhaegar trained to be a knight when he was bookish to start with, and this guy (Gregor) was a natural. Something like, "If I'm a knight, then he should certainly be a knight, too."

[J. Stargaryen]

I should modify this actually.

Thats the most that most people know.

Its not even clear how many people know about Rhaegar and Lyanna. Robert claims thats why the went to war, but thats clearly bullshit from the historical timeline. There is no actual mention of Lyanna from the time she disappears, even again. Brandon doesn't seem to mention her, nor Rickard, nor Jon Arryn. Robert does years later. Clearly her 'abduction' is directly realted to Brandon's actions, yet who actually knows this? I would guess quite a few important people, perhaps even most of them, but there's not a lot of info floating around there that would cause them to know. I suspect they know because of things that were said 'offscreen' as it were, so I'm not claiming no one knows, just opointing out that there's not much to show its widely known.

Same thing for Lyanna's bones. The Starks know, and Ned told Robert, and Cersei clearly knows (from Robert if nothing else), and Barbrey Dustin knows (Ned brought her husbands horse back, probably with Lyanna's bones) but there's no reason too many other people particularly know or care. Again, I imagine most of the important or very clever people know, like Varys and Littlefinger, but it need not be general widely held knowledge.

This is an interesting point. We know that stories can vary quite a bit from region to region. In the North they whispered that Ashara Dayne was Jon's mother; in Dorne it's Wylla the wet nurse, while it's some fisherman's daughter according to Lord Borrell of Sisteron.

[FrozenFire3]

:lol:

When I read some of these R+L=J counter arguments I'm reminded of the idiom: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

"Bed of blood," "blue flower in a wall of ice," etc. GRRM makes some of this stuff pretty obvious if you pay attention. I genuinely believe that he wants some people to get R+L=J, that he's always wanted that. Which is why he's left clue after clue in the series.

He just didn't take into account denial, the grrrr-pretty-boy-musician-always-gets-the-lady-arghhhh type :rolleyes: