‘The Last Kingdom’ - based on Bernard Cornwell’s The Saxon series

[Jedi Renee]

I really loved this show! I watched it all on Netflix over 3 days, I couldn't stop it was so good. The main actor in his clothes and hair remindedme of Kahl drago. Great show. 

[Protagoras]

Ok, after seeing 7 episides I really need to ask (and I guess this is something book-readers might understand better). Why Is Uhtred helping Alfred?

In the beginning - sure, he wanted his lands and the title as earldorman but the longer the series progresses Alfred just keep shitting on him again and again. Instead of actually rewarding him, he gives him debts in order to "test his worth" (hint - if you try to test someone by giving them a poor deal you shouldn´t be surprised if become less loyal and no, you are not "proving" their disloyalty - you are creating disloyalty), refuses to acknowledge his efforts against Ubba and instead wants him humiliated over Uhtreds "lack of respect" (respect he has no reason to expect considering his behaviour). Then, after the raiding west (which, again is his fault in its ground) he wants him killed and the only thing saving Uhtred is Danes arriving. Its like Alfred doesn´t want Uhtred to like him. Sure, he doesn´t have to trust him but his lack of goodwill would turn anyone against you.

Yet, Uthred doesnt grow wiser - he then assist Alfred again by forcing Iseult to help as well as again humiliating himself by taking huge risks personally against the danes in the swamp. Time and time again it is said that if Alfred falls, then Wessex will fall. Well, screw Wessex! If you are treated like shit you should behave shit back. Maybe a place who rewards its warriors so poorly deserves to lose.

If that had been me I would have said "Screw you! I am not doing anything for you until you give me the respect,the reward I deserve as well as a very deep and honest apology for all the shit you have done so far and yes, I will talk to you this way until you start to fucking behave". I would have joined the danes and my "brother". They are respecting him, the other side is not. This is a no-brainer.

So, please tell me dear book-readers what I have missed. Is this just author bias? (I read the warlord chronicles and was baffled that Mordred was portrayed as a horrible monster, when he is completely correct about all issues of loyalty).

Also, is it only me who think the 2 series are far, far to similiar? We have many/all of the same characters all over again - the old childhood-friend/lover that you lose more and more touch with, the grizzled veteran who is rough but a good friend, the true heir to the throne who is sidestepped in favor of a more popular relative (I bet my ass on that Aethelwold will try to "usurp" (wrong, he is king - he does not usurp) Alfreds crown and will be seen as a bastard for doing so (yeah, because that is a fair interpretation of the situation, lol)), the struggle between a christianity who sucks compared with the old religions who actually does shit etc, etc.

And what is the issue with the blurring of breasts? I am fine with series not having nudity but I do have issues with teasing and censoring nipples (especially since the amount of gore is pretty high and since a lot of rape happens off screen). Why having scenes like Midreds bath scene if you are not willing to commit? Its the worst kind of "american adolescent puperty issues" (Yeah, we cant show nipples because nipples are satan, but we must add sexual scenes with naked women barely covering the sweet spots in order to make it sexy. Hooters are a place for gentemen, but nipples - thats bad).

[Mark Antony]

I haven't read them all but from what Ive read Uhtred stays loyal to Alfred cause Alfred keeps getting him to swear oaths of allegiance throughout.  Also Uhtred wants to take Bebbanberg back on his own and not have the Danes hand it to him and have him rule it as a puppet. 

[Protagoras]

45 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

Also Uhtred wants to take Bebbanberg back on his own and not have the Danes hand it to him and have him rule it as a puppet. 

So, it´s better to be Alfreds puppet?

Clearly Alfreds endgame is to transform him to a nice little christian who is loyal to his lord, without getting nor expecting rewards (He will most likely succed since thats what happened to Derfel in Warlord and I expect the author to have little imagination at this point).

[HexMachina]

Warlords makes it quite clear

That Derfel is "Christian" in the very loosest sense of the word. It's hinted at from the very first book, but by the end it's abundantly clear that he isn't really Christian

[Protagoras]

20 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Warlords makes it quite clear

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Spoiler

Doesnt really matter - he adapts in public and that is what counts. Uhtred might feel the same but I bet he will end up the same way, regardless of his inner beliefs

Edit -

Spoiler

And don´t forget the lack of loyalty he shows Nimue, refusing to side with her over Arthurs child. I am geniunly starting to wonder if the loyalty-thingie is a general weak spot in the authors repertoire.

 

[Protagoras]

39 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

I haven't read them all but from what Ive read Uhtred stays loyal to Alfred cause Alfred keeps getting him to swear oaths of allegiance throughout.

How? By force? The response after working for such a shitty lord should be "No, after this period - we are done with each other. You havn´t behaved in a way a good lord should and I refuse to swear more oaths until you wisen up and treat me with respect"

[Mark Antony]

No not by force. You should read the books if you're so curious but from what I remember. 

Uhtred goes north for a while once his first oath to Alfred is fulfilled, gets betrayed, sold as a slave, and Alfred sends people to save him which leads to another oath of loyalty

 

[Protagoras]

11 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

No not by force. You should read the books if you're so curious but from what I remember. 

 

Hidden Content

 

Hmm, they really should have kept that scene. You are most likely right - I should read the books, but I am busy with other fantasy atm.

[Mark Antony]

That's a future storyline not a scene. I guess I misunderstood you. You're asking why does he stay loyal through the course of the first season of the show? I thought the show did a decent job of explaining why.  he can't fight for the Danes at first cause they all think he killed Ragnar, plus his Uncle is hunting him so he pretty much has to go to Wessex. 

I honestly forget the exact circumstances of why he stays loyal after the fight with Leofric and Dane invasion though.

[Protagoras]

10 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

That's a future storyline not a scene. I guess I misunderstood you. You're asking why does he stay loyal through the course of the first season of the show?

Yes. I can´t honestly understand why he stays loyal after ep 5 (and above all - his attempts of getting into Afreds good favor in ep 7 which is very weakly motivated with "the fall of Wessex"). Sorry if I was unclear. English is not my first language.

10 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

I thought the show did a decent job of explaining why.  he can't fight for the Danes at first cause they all think he killed Ragnar, plus his Uncle is hunting him so he pretty much has to go to Wessex. 

No, I honestly think they fail at that part. In the beginning (and with Ubba alive) it works, but when Ragnar the younger returs he get someone who believes him and trusts him. Then, after Ubba dies, Guthrum and Ragnar the younger seems to be allied. I doubt that accusation would still be an issue.

Yet, when Ubba dies he is dealt a far shittier hand than before from Alfred in addition to the not-so.subtle conversion and adaptation attempts. Should Uhtred adapt more towards the saxons? Yes, if he actually gets stuff for doing so instead of scorn.

[JoeyBanana]

Uthred isn't respected by anyone with the exception of a few characters in the books. To the danes he is a saxon and the saxons view him as a dane/pagan. He isn't welcomed by any of them and while he has influential enemies on both sides, those amongst the danes are far more powerful (at that point). Not to mention that Alfred has the power to protect him and Ragnar really doesn't. Remember, he can't even openly confront the danes who killed Old Ragnar yet. I think he had like one ship under his command when he returned from Ireland.

Uthred is in a weak position and has to endure Alfred's antics because he needs allies if he wants to defeat his uncle someday. Alfred is at least willing to be an ally, the danes are not.

 

 

 

[RedEyedGhost]

1 hour ago, JoeyBanana said:

Uthred is in a weak position and has to endure Alfred's antics because he needs allies if he wants to defeat his uncle someday. Alfred is at least willing to be an ally, the danes are not.

And he knows even if he could get the Danes to successfully install him as the ruler of Bebbanburg he would only be their puppet.  He would still be beholden to Alfred, but he would have much more autonomy.

[Tijgy]

Why? 

Uhtred's look at the world is not that difficult. He think two things determine everything: oaths and the fates. He believes oaths are very important. Mostly this believe is built on the fact that if you are an oath breaker your own mans can break your oath to you. He believes that oaths are sort of the reason why men keep order and the peace. I am correct he believes you are not worth anything if you don't keep your oaths. 

Yes, he keeps swearing oaths to Alfred but each time there are circumstances why he swears to Alfred. Everytime he does this, Uthred thinks that this is because fate is inexorable. And only if those fates would want Uhtred to break his oath, only then he would do that . 

I did not watch the show entirely so I am not sure Uhtred said that about oaths. 

And btw we would very rich if we would get a penny every time Uhtred thinks fate is inexorable and his believes on oaths. And to be honest, I think this loyalty to his oaths is one of the stronger elements of his character. It is something where his whole morality is built on and this does lead to a lot of internal conflicts of the character. 

[Pliskin]

Oath is a very strong idea in Cornwell's books.

I've read recently the Warlord Chronicles, and Arthur believes just the same way in the sanctity of oaths. And just as Uthred, they're his plague too.

[Mark Antony]

8 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Yet, when Ubba dies he is dealt a far shittier hand than before from Alfred in addition to the not-so.subtle conversion and adaptation attempts. Should Uhtred adapt more towards the saxons? Yes, if he actually gets stuff for doing so instead of scorn.

I think it was just showing how rash Uhtred was. His actions after killing Ubba were pretty damn stupid. 

[Protagoras]

3 hours ago, Mark Antony said:

I think it was just showing how rash Uhtred was. His actions after killing Ubba were pretty damn stupid. 

Sure but just as Ned failed to do after the trident, he should have learnt from them, seen Alfreds intentions and start seeking another option. Maybe hire himself out as a sellsword? If he can´t because of an oath - Well, wait until the oath ends (The series never really say how long that year he swore really is, but since he has a kid he must have sworn a new one at some point). 

6 hours ago, Tijgy said:

Yes, he keeps swearing oaths to Alfred but each time there are circumstances why he swears to Alfred. Everytime he does this, Uthred thinks that this is because fate is inexorable. And only if those fates would want Uhtred to break his oath, only then he would do that . 

Hmm, this sounds like a pretty weak plot tbh. Sure, I agree that keeping your oaths are important but when the time is up and you are not pleased, why stay? What are those circumstances in the book exactly? (I am of course talking about the period from the show).

4 hours ago, Pliskin said:

Oath is a very strong idea in Cornwell's books.

I've read recently the Warlord Chronicles, and Arthur believes just the same way in the sanctity of oaths. And just as Uthred, they're his plague too.

Yet Arthur ends up breaking many of them anyway. One could hope that some realize that if you are unable to fullfill your promises, maybe the problem doesn´t lie in the oaths, but in you and you simply should swear less oaths in the first place (something  Jaime Lannister needs to learn as well).

9 hours ago, JoeyBanana said:

Uthred isn't respected by anyone with the exception of a few characters in the books. To the danes he is a saxon and the saxons view him as a dane/pagan. He isn't welcomed by any of them and while he has influential enemies on both sides, those amongst the danes are far more powerful (at that point). Not to mention that Alfred has the power to protect him and Ragnar really doesn't. Remember, he can't even openly confront the danes who killed Old Ragnar yet. I think he had like one ship under his command when he returned from Ireland.

Uthred is in a weak position and has to endure Alfred's antics because he needs allies if he wants to defeat his uncle someday. Alfred is at least willing to be an ally, the danes are not.

Interesting, but I wonder - is this really true after Ubba dies? Cause the show doesnt give me that impression. Indeed, the danes basically take over Wessex the second last episode and I doubt (due to the strong bond between him, Brida and Ragnar) that he wouldn´t be welcome among them if he wished to. Indeed, Ragnar was able to protect him when he was a hostage after all so he does seem to have that power and especially now with Ubba dead.

I am sort of understanding what you all try to tell me, but there are just..things..that just doesn´t work for me. Uhtred only met Alfred because he failed to convince the danes that he didn´t murder Earl Ragnar. There he meet Beocca (God, I hate that man) who can´t understand why Alfreds religious issues (which he really should keep private) are not particulary inspiring to Uhtred (gee, wonder why).

Then Alfred shows up and have zero understanding for Uhtreds position despite seeing him as useful. He somehow believes that he should get completely self-sacrificing obediance from his servants, yet fails to understand that Uhtred is not his servant, nor have any reason to expect him to be - at least not yet. He is offering you an opportunity, an opportunity Alfred want but are not willing to pay for. Basically, Alfred get a year of service without Uthred getting anything in return. Oh, I forget - his "return" is: locked in a cage, a chainmail suit, exchanged as hostage and then ordered to marry a woman with a massive (and unknown) debt Alfred refuses to remove (Seriosly, that man only keep the letter and not the spirit of oaths and creates rebellion and antagonism by simply just beeing), humiliation and almost execution. Service demands rewards, but not in Alfreds mind.

I mean - just look at this logic: (Quote from Alfred) "Why do you not show your king the respect that is due? Because you, Uhtred of Wherever, you do not see me as your king. You do not see my God as your God". Well, lets see - you are about to give him up as a hostage, you have given him little reward, yet you expect him to convert and respect you more (wtf!). You seem to have severe issues to separate friends from enemies and you don´t treat people well in general. Are you sure you have a reputation for being wise?

In the beginning, Uthred endures - due to lack of good options, but this just keeps piling up. He is humiliated (together with the person who is the legitimate threat to Alfred and actually tries to harvest some goodwill with Uthred - why not help him?) and almost killed and yet he still tries to work with Alfred. Why? Simply realize that the man is hopeless, do the minimum you are bid to do and then refuse to reswear the oath when the time is up. 

 

[Spockydog]

16 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

I am sort of understanding what you all try to tell me, but there are just..things..that just doesn´t work for me. Uhtred only met Alfred because he failed to convince the danes that he murdered Earl Ragnar. There he meet Beocca (God, I hate that man) 

Sounds to me like you should just bin it and move on. Your hatred of Beocca, one of the best things about this adaptation, is bewildering.

 

[Protagoras]

2 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Sounds to me like you should just bin it and move on. Your hatred of Beocca, one of the best things about this adaptation, is bewildering.

 

Why? Everything he says is "You need to trust Alfred. You need to adapt. You need to find an ally in him" and persists in doing this regardless of what Alfred does (showing zero loyalty to Uhtred in the process). In addition, he goes on and on about God as an attempt to confort when things turn shit as well as stealing credits from Iseult he she saves the baby (always the same logic - God is great regardless of what he does).

I was hoping to get some strong arguments on things I had missed so I could change my perspoective, but since that doesn´t seem to happen I guess I should bin it. A pity, since I had expected more but I guess you can´t get everything. 

[Spockydog]

4 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Why? Everything he says is "You need to trust Alfred. You need to adapt. You need to find an ally in him" and persists in doing this regardless of what Alfred does (showing zero loyalty to Uhtred in the process). In addition, he goes on and on about God as an attempt to confort when things turn shit as well as stealing credits from Iseult he she saves the baby (always the same logic - God is great regardless of what he does).

 

*internet dude repeatedly fails to grasp societal and political norms of a time 1300 years before he was born*