R+L=J v.123

[markg171]

I won't argue with anything you just wrote because it could go in circles. Instead I will literally ask one question...

If you believe Ned Stark to be Jon Snow's father, then who is Jon's mother? I don't know that I've ever actually seen you say.

I don't think his mother even matters. His entire story has been about being Ned's son and following Ned's example. I don't see how his mother would ever impact things.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Here, it is not clear that Argilac and Sharra each offered Aegon a third wife -- as you noted about Daemon and Rhaenyra later on, it is not clear that Argilac and Sharra were proposing polygamous marriages rather than asking Aegon to set aside Visenya and Rhaenys.

In the instance of Argilac, Aegon's response was

He had two wives, he pointed out; he did not need a third

Had Argilac asked for Aegon to marry Argella as his only wife, this response would not have been given.

In the case of Sharra, it is said as well, he already had two queens, he did not need a third... And why the need to specifically name Sharra's son heir, if Sharra was Aegon's only wife?

So Argilac definitly offered Aegon a third wife, and all we know (though it is little) suggests that Sharra offered herself as a third wife as well.

[The guy from the Vale]

I don't think his mother even matters. His entire story has been about being Ned's son and following Ned's example. I don't see how his mother would ever impact things.

"The Mother is important, too!"

- Arya, to Jon, in Arya I, AGoT

[BearQueen87]

I don't think his mother even matters. His entire story has been about being Ned's son and following Ned's example. I don't see how his mother would ever impact things.

Okay, well thanks for answering. I think you're 100% wrong (no matter who his mother turns out be) and GRRM has talked about how Jon's parentage has to come out eventually, so that means he at least knows it needs to be discussed.

I also think you need to consider Jon's psychology wrt to not knowing from whence he came...or for that matter, anyone who doesn't know "their" story. Identity is a HUGE theme in this series. One of the top things GRRM is playing with.

And if you think mothers aren't important, then I'd urge you to re-read Cat, Cersei, Dany, Sansa, Arya, Brienne, Asha, Arianne, and even Mel.

Mothers play a very crucial role in this series

[J. Stargaryen]

Okay, well thanks for answering. I think you're 100% wrong (no matter who his mother turns out be) and GRRM has talked about how Jon's parentage has to come out eventually, so that means he at least knows it needs to be discussed.

I also think you need to consider Jon's psychology wrt to not knowing from whence he came...or for that matter, anyone who doesn't know "their" story. Identity is a HUGE theme in this series. One of the top things GRRM is playing with.

And if you think mothers aren't important, then I'd urge you to re-read Cat, Cersei, Dany, Sansa, Arya, Brienne, Asha, Arianne, and even Mel.

Mothers play a very crucial role in this series

Not to mention that it's the test question GRRM used for D&D during their first meeting, to test how well they knew the novels.

[BearQueen87]

Not to mention that it's the test question GRRM used for D&D during their first meeting, to test how well they knew the novels.

Exactly. And why ask that question if it's as simple as "fisherman's daughter" (and ADWD wasn't even out yet, right?) or Ashara Dayne or Wylla, the wenturse.

[ToTheWolves]

Not to mention that it's the test question GRRM used for D&D during their first meeting, to test how well they knew the novels.

[IceFire125]

"The Mother is important, too!"

- Arya, to Jon, in Arya I, AGoT

So basically, through Arya telling Jon, GRRM told a certain user in this thread to either care or not be seen as a troll?

GRRM, thank you for addressing the trolls way before they even appear on online forums.

[ToTheWolves]

Wait...if you believe Jon's mother isn't important,and you also believe that jon is just Ned's son...then why the secret? Why didn't ned just come out and tell him then? There would obviously be no reason to not tell ANYONE at all. I mean I guess you can use ned and Roberts "convo" about wylla as your defense,but I personally thought it was obvious that Ned was STILL evasive there also.

I'm not trying to attack anyone or anything like that for their own opinions, but honestly I just can't see the logic in saying Ned is straight up just Jon's father, and the mother isn't important at all and that Ned's secrecy is just all for nothing.

[sj4iy]

GRRM and D&D are meeting for the first time at a restaurant:

GRRM: "So, I really like you guys- you have great ideas and would seem like great producers for my story. However, to make sure that you are the right guys, I need to give you a test to see if you have REALLY been paying attention to the story."

D&D: "Oh, man. Well, okay, we'll go for it."

GRRM: "Now, this is EXTREMELY important, the main mystery of my story...something that the entire story is based on."

D&D: "Wow, this is starting to sound scary."

GRRM: "Yup, so here it is: Who is Jon Snow's mother?" *DUM DUM DUMMMMMMM*

D&D: "Oh man, wow. Ummm...well, we have a theory."

GRRM: "Oh yeah? What is it?"

D&D: "Well, we discussed it, and...we really think it's Wylla."

GRRM: "Wylla? Really?"

D&D: "Well, yeah, I mean...why would you write it if it weren't true?"

GRRM: "Well, who is his father?"

D&D: "Well duh, it has to be Ned."

GRRM: "Are you sure?"

D&D: "Of course! You wrote that, too."

GRRM: "Well, I have to tell you...You're right! It was totally a trick question, and not at all as important as I was making it out to be. All that crap I wrote in the books about Lyanna and Rhaegar is simply a cover story. It's totally Wylla and Ned."

D&D: "Wait, have to know...why doesn't Ned ever tell Jon about his mother?"

GRRM: "Well, that's simple...he just hates the kid. With a passion."

D&D: "Oh, that makes sense...I guess."

GRRM: "Because you guys were so great at believing every single thing I said, here's the rights to do whatever you want to do with my story."

D&D: "WHOO HOO!"

[BearQueen87]

GRRM and D&D are meeting for the first time at a restaurant:

GRRM: "So, I really like you guys- you have great ideas and would seem like great producers for my story. However, to make sure that you are the right guys, I need to give you a test to see if you have REALLY been paying attention to the story."

D&D: "Oh, man. Well, okay, we'll go for it."

GRRM: "Now, this is EXTREMELY important, the main mystery of my story...something that the entire story is based on."

D&D: "Wow, this is starting to sound scary."

GRRM: "Yup, so here it is: Who is Jon Snow's mother?" *DUM DUM DUMMMMMMM*

D&D: "Oh man, wow. Ummm...well, we have a theory."

GRRM: "Oh yeah? What is it?"

D&D: "Well, we discussed it, and...we really think it's Wylla."

GRRM: "Wylla? Really?"

D&D: "Well, yeah, I mean...why would you write it if it weren't true?"

GRRM: "Well, who is his father?"

D&D: "Well duh, it has to be Ned."

GRRM: "Are you sure?"

D&D: "Of course! You wrote that, too."

GRRM: "Well, I have to tell you...You're right! It was totally a trick question, and not at all as important as I was making it out to be. All that crap I wrote in the books about Lyanna and Rhaegar is simply a cover story. It's totally Wylla and Ned."

D&D: "Wait, have to know...why doesn't Ned ever tell Jon about his mother?"

GRRM: "Well, that's simple...he just hates the kid. With a passion."

D&D: "Oh, that makes sense...I guess."

GRRM: "Because you guys were so great at believing every single thing I said, here's the rights to do whatever you want to do with my story."

D&D: "WHOO HOO!"

#ActaulConversation #RealLife #ThisIsTotallyHowItWent #GRRMDoesNotWriteMysteries #NothingToSee #LookAway

#TeamHastag

[markg171]

Okay, well thanks for answering. I think you're 100% wrong (no matter who his mother turns out be) and GRRM has talked about how Jon's parentage has to come out eventually, so that means he at least knows it needs to be discussed.

I also think you need to consider Jon's psychology wrt to not knowing from whence he came...or for that matter, anyone who doesn't know "their" story. Identity is a HUGE theme in this series. One of the top things GRRM is playing with.

And if you think mothers aren't important, then I'd urge you to re-read Cat, Cersei, Dany, Sansa, Arya, Brienne, Asha, Arianne, and even Mel.

Mothers play a very crucial role in this series

Well even if Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, so what?

Jon does not have any claim to the Iron Throne, despite what is said around here. When Robert won the throne, it passed into the Baratheon family. It is in their hands now, not the Targaryen's. Succession runs through their family. And even if it didn't, he is the younger son. Aegon would come before him in any succession and until he's proven fake, he's a son of Rhaegar and comes first. So exactly what you think being a son of Rhaegar would do for Jon, I don't know.

Renly had the right of it: armies win kingdoms. If you want Jon on the throne as I've seen many suggest, he needs to win it through conquest. Even Dany and Aegon aren't relying on their blood to win them their throne, they're relying on armies. They know that even though their descended from past royalty, they need to win their throne as it's no longer their's. It's no different with Jon. If he sits the throne, it will come from his deeds, not his blood.

So yeah, I don't see how exactly who his parents are matters to the story. If he's Ned's nothing changes. If he's Rhaegar and Lyanna's, nothing changes.

[BearQueen87]

Well even if Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, so what?

Jon does not have any claim to the Iron Throne, despite what is said around here. When Robert won the throne, it passed into the Baratheon family. It is in their hands now, not the Targaryen's. Succession runs through their family. And even if it didn't, he is the younger son. Aegon would come before him in any succession and until he's proven fake, he's a son of Rhaegar and comes first. So exactly what you think being a son of Rhaegar would do for Jon, I don't know.

Renly had the right of it: armies win kingdoms. If you want Jon on the throne as I've seen many suggest, he needs to win it through conquest. Even Dany and Aegon aren't relying on their blood to win them their throne, they're relying on armies. They know that even though their descended from past royalty, they need to win their throne as it's no longer their's. It's no different with Jon. If he sits the throne, it will come from his deeds, not his blood.

So yeah, I don't see how exactly who his parents are matters to the story. If he's Ned's nothing changes. If he's Rhaegar and Lyanna's, nothing changes.

Well, for a starter, you're misrepresenting why I personally believe RLJ is important. I don't think RLJ has anything with his claim to the throne or Jon's future kingship. I do think he'll be king but NOT because of RLJ. That will be because of his leadership and abilities during the long night and a GC will be called and will choose him, like it has in the past.

So....why RLJ? Well, for me it's blood. Jon's blood is unique. No one has ever had blood of the dragon (fire) and blood of winter (ice). That's what makes Jon TPTWP. He is the embodiment of balance and it's that blood that will allow him to do "the thing" (as I call it, and no don't ask me what "the thing" is; I actually don't know). So much of ASOIAF is about balance and finding balance between the elements, the races, the families, the sexes and also internally with yourself. Jon is the great balance. The only way Jon can do "the thing" is by virtue of RLJ. That's what makes him different.

[markg171]

Well, for a starter, you're misrepresenting why I personally believe RLJ is important. I don't think RLJ has anything with his claim to the throne or Jon's future kingship. I do think he'll be king but NOT because of RLJ. That will be because of his leadership and abilities during the long night and a GC will be called and will choose him, like it has in the past.

So....why RLJ? Well, for me it's blood. Jon's blood is unique. No one has ever had blood of the dragon (fire) and blood of winter (ice). That's what makes Jon TPTWP. He is the embodiment of balance and it's that blood that will allow him to do "the thing" (as I call it, and no don't ask me what "the thing" is; I actually don't know). So much of ASOIAF is about balance and finding balance between the elements, the races, the families, the sexes and also internally with yourself. Jon is the great balance. The only way Jon can do "the thing" is by virtue of RLJ. That's what makes him different.

I'm not going to try and argue your personal beliefs as we're all free to come to our own conclusions on how the story will end until it actually does, but I would like to ask you something.

What about the fact that the balance of ice and fire, was achieved in the very first book? The book opens with creatures of ice returning, and ends with creatures of fire returning.

[sj4iy]

I'm not going to try and argue your personal beliefs as we're all free to come to our own conclusions on how the story will end until it actually does, but I would like to ask you something.

What about the fact that the balance of ice and fire, was achieved in the very first book? The book opens with creatures of ice returning, and ends with creatures of fire returning.

If fire wins, the world is imbalanced. If ice wins, the world is imbalanced.

Someone has to be the center...someone has to be the balance between the two. You can no more have Targaryens with their dragons ruling the world than you can have the Others and their ice zombies doing so. Both are harbingers of death and destruction.

[Kingmonkey]

eta (4): I have the black eyes from the wiki and could not dig up where that is from. I took it out until a reliable source ever be found.

I put it back in. AFfC 24 Cersei V: "It had to have been the madness that led Aerys to refuse Lord Tywin's daughter and take his son instead, whilst marrying his own son to a feeble Dornish princess with black eyes and a flat chest."

That's good for Elia, but we only have "Rhaenys looked more like a Martell, Aegon more a Targaryen", don't we? Too vague, better not to specify when we have the three strong boys example that's definitive.

I think my version of the first para with your version of the second makes the best mix:

Don't all Targaryens have hallmark Valryian silver-golden hair and purple eyes?

Not all of them: Valarr and Queen Alysanne had blue eyes. Bittersteel, who like Jon was half first men blood, had brown hair. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look, as did Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys. Princess Rhaenyra's "three strong boys" all had brown eyes as well as hair.

Had Jon Valyrian features, it would give his parentage away: "He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." Tyrion got the bit about the mother wrong, though: his mother was the Stark.

Can we be certain polygamy is not illegal?

Aegon I and Maegor I practised polygamy. Some people propose that the lack of clear examples after Jaehaerys the Conciliator's universal laws suggests that polygamy was made illegal to appease the Faith Militant. However In Westeros, unlike a constitutional monarchy, royals are not subject to the law. In Chapter 33 it says "like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men". Examples demonstrate that it was considered an option for Targaryens: Aegon IV and Daemon Blackfyre may have considered it for Daemon, Jorah Mormont suggested it to Daenerys as a viable option, and she said the same about Quentyn Martell.

George R.R. Martin says in this SSM: "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want". There is also this SSM predating the worldbook.

On Polygamy essay by Ygrain with additions by Rhaenys_Targaryen.

On the matter of including the Jaehaerys bit, I haven't counted the votes but it looks close. I have no opinion on whether Jaehaerys' laws included outlawing polygamy or not. Nothing in the text says it is, and the question of a lack of later Targ examples is simply answered that they were playing things more cautiously (see the SSM on dragons). What I'd say IS very clear is that even if they did, that did not apply to Targaryens. This is an easily answerable question, so let's answer it for once and for all in the FAQ.

I'd guess that people who are opposed are worried about even bringing it up, because why give the dissenters ammunition? Enough of them will find it anyway, so defuse it right up front. On this basis, here's another revision which I think gives a pretty solid answer to the question, with bits from Ygraine and MtnLion added:

Can we be certain polygamy is not illegal?

Aegon I and Maegor I practised polygamy. Some people propose that Jaehaerys I's universal laws maye have outlawed polygamy, as he promised to act as defender of the Faith. However the trigger for the uprising of the Faith Militant was an incestuous Targaryen marriage, yet two of Jaehaerys' own children married incestuously. Even if there was such a law, it did not apply to Targaryens. Westeros does not have a constitutional monarchy, placing the royal family above any laws: "like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men". Examples demonstrate that it was still considered an option for Targs: Aegon IV and Daemon Blackfyre may have considered it for Daemon, Jorah Mormont suggested it to Daenerys as a viable option, and she later said the same about Quentyn Martell.

GRRM says in this SSM: "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want". There is also this SSM predating the worldbook and this essay On Polygamy by Ygrain with additions by Rhaenys_Targaryen.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?

If so, why would they have apparently made no effort to use this leverage against Robert and Ned? Some argue their Kingsguard vows would have taken precedence and still have required them to leave the Tower to protect Viserys when he became heir -- unless there was another that took precedence [Jon]. Others think they were guarding Lyanna as a hostage at the Tower of Joy. Some say that makes little sense: She would better be kept hostage at King's Landing, and wouldn't require kingsguards to guard her. The mere presence of three kingsguards implies something more important: guarding members of the royal family or maybe the heir.

Frequently suggested readings: At the tower of joy by MtnLion and support of the toj analysis by Ygrain

This is getting pretty solid, but Jon asked me in PM to take a stern look on protect vs. obey neutrality, so I propose this change:

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?

If so, why would they have apparently made no effort to use this leverage against Robert and Ned? This idea makes little sense: she would better be kept hostage at King's Landing, and wouldn't require kingsguards to guard her.

Some argue their Kingsguard vows would have taken precedence and still have required them to leave the Tower to protect Viserys when he became heir -- unless there was another that took precedence [Jon]. Others propose they were following orders, but more important orders than simple hostage-taking. The mere presence of three kingsguards implies something more important: guarding members of the royal family or maybe the heir.

Wouldn't Viserys take precedence anyway? Rhaegar died without becoming king, and doesn't the world book call Viserys, not Aegon, Aerys' new heir?

No, in the case of an eldest son dying before the king dies, a grandson comes before a younger son. Even in the case the grandson is yet unborn at the time of death, he would succeed (heir apparent vs. heir presumptive). The world book is written with a Lannister bias and in hindsight by maesters who have never learned all of what we know from Ned's dreams and memories.

Are matters of succession just as clear as presented here?

Succession quarrels are a part of medieval power play and even a very clear inheritance could well be contested. So maybe in King's Landing things did happen as the world book says. Rhaegar and Aerys may have been at odds over the succession. Rhaegar told Jaime before leaving for the Trident that he intended to call a council, and The Great Councils of the past have dealt with matters of succession. Who would have accepted such a change is a question worth asking.

This works much better broken up like this, great call. I think it's helpful to include a reason WHY Lannister bias is relevant here, though -- and to avoid confusion I think it's helpful to link the Viserys question in the first to the second, so people don't think we're just ignoring the possibility. Thus:

Wouldn't Viserys take precedence anyway? Rhaegar died without becoming king, and doesn't the world book call Viserys, not Aegon, Aerys' new heir?

No, in the case of an eldest son dying before the king dies, a grandson comes before a younger son. Even in the case the grandson is yet unborn at the time of death, he would succeed (heir apparent vs. heir presumptive). The world book is written with a Lannister bias (it may be propaganda to undermine Dornish support for the Targs) and in hindsight by maesters who have never learned all of what we know from Ned's dreams and memories. Even if it does turn out to be true -- see the next answer.

[markg171]

Wait...if you believe Jon's mother isn't important,and you also believe that jon is just Ned's son...then why the secret? Why didn't ned just come out and tell him then? There would obviously be no reason to not tell ANYONE at all. I mean I guess you can use ned and Roberts "convo" about wylla as your defense,but I personally thought it was obvious that Ned was STILL evasive there also.

I'm not trying to attack anyone or anything like that for their own opinions, but honestly I just can't see the logic in saying Ned is straight up just Jon's father, and the mother isn't important at all and that Ned's secrecy is just all for nothing.

Why not keep it a secret?

He married Catelyn for her father's armies, not love. But I'm sure he hoped that one day love would grow between them (he was afterall expected to spend the rest of his life with her, might as well be a pleasant one). Spending the first year of your marriage off waging war is hard enough on a marriage as is, but coming home with a bastard further strains that. If you hope to somehow come to love each other when you didn't marry for love and haven't even spent time together, why tell her who you spent your first year of marriage with instead of her? It's just another strain on an already strained relationship. Catelyn had already done her duty for Ned and birthed him a son and heir. If she never wanted anything to do with him again, I doubt Ned would have pressed the issue. Instead they tried to love each other and create a real family. Keeping the name of your other lover a secret is a step towards creating unity between you. Telling her who Jon's mother was causes divisions. It's the logical choice.

As for keeping it a secret from Jon, again why not? We see that Ned wanted Jon and Robb to grow up close and by keeping the mother's identity secret, the two half brothers were able to focus on what they had in common (Ned) instead of what separated them (their mothers). It's the logical choice.

Keeping Jon's mother a secret helps to unite the family, but telling who she was would've served to cause divisions. I don't see what Ned did as anything wrong. We see that he and Catelyn did come to love each other, and we see that Robb and Jon did grow up as if they were real brothers. Everything Ned wanted to happen, happened by not revealing who Jon's mother was. There's no guarantee that the same could be said if he hadn't kept it a secret, but things likely wouldn't have turned out the way they did.

[BearQueen87]

I'm not going to try and argue your personal beliefs as we're all free to come to our own conclusions on how the story will end until it actually does, but I would like to ask you something.

What about the fact that the balance of ice and fire, was achieved in the very first book? The book opens with creatures of ice returning, and ends with creatures of fire returning.

Brielfy

1) The WW were back before the prologue. They were just moving south (and going just a bit beyond that, I think the WW were "awoken" when Rhaegar was born. He was the dragon born back into the world that Aegon V thought he'd get at Summerhall, only Rhaegar was not of the winged variety)

2) The world of Palenetos is very much out of balance given that winters still last generations and summers can last years. Ergo, balance not achieved

3) I tend to believe that the the WW and the dragons are symptomatic of the world being out of balance; I don't really expect either of the WW or the dragons to be alive come series end

4) Jon's role is to restore planetary balance by doing "the thing" and only he can do that because he is the embodiment of balance.

[markg171]

If fire wins, the world is imbalanced. If ice wins, the world is imbalanced.

Someone has to be the center...someone has to be the balance between the two. You can no more have Targaryens with their dragons ruling the world than you can have the Others and their ice zombies doing so. Both are harbingers of death and destruction.

Why not just wipe them all out? If there's neither fire nor ice, there is balance. Kill all the dragons and kill all the Others and everything's balanced and no one needs to be the centre.

I'm not even sure there is supposed to be a balance. Where is this ever even stated that a balance must be achieved? As far as I can tell, it's just a fan theory. The goal from everything we've seen is to drive back the Others and beat them, not balance them.

[Kingmonkey]

GRRM and D&D are meeting for the first time at a restaurant:

I'm convinced. This is exactly what happened! :lmao:

As we've been working on additions to the OP FAQ, another proposal. In the reference section, how about adding SJ4iy's R+L=J hints, clues and foreshadowing doc?