The true purpose of R+L=J in the story.

[Danilo Sanches]

Rather than analize whether or not Jon Snow is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son , let's assume the theory is true. What i propose to discuss is what was George Martin objective in introducing R+L=J ? What part this issue with Jon's parentage will play in the overall narrative ?

The first idea that comes to mind is that being a son of Rhaegar ( whether bastard or legitimate ) would give Jon some claim to the Iron Throne. But that doesn't look much like Martin. Most fans agree , me included , that it would be a bit cliché for him to end up as King in the end.

The second idea revolves around Jon being "The Prince That Was Promised" or "Azor Ahai" , given that Rhaegar was apparently obsessed with prophecies and though that a son by him and Lyanna would have fulfilled one of them , and could also allow Jon to ride a dragon. Anyway , it would mean that Jon would be somehow instrumental in fighting and defeating the Others. I don't think that the alternative that Martin created R+l=J so Jon could be the chosen one is completely impossible , but i think i't more likely Daenerys that will fulfill that role.

Finally , after reading the Waterstone letter there is a final alternative. We find through reading the letter that Martin planned to have a love story between Jon and Arya ( i presume she would be older when he had that idea in the beginning ) , but that they wouldn't act on it because they were half-brothers and Jon was sworn to the Night's Watch. That is , until they find out about Jon's true parentage and their consciousness is relieved about their love affair. Apparently it was an important part of their character development since Martin included in the letter outlining to his friend the story overall concept. But since Arya is still too young at the point we currently are in the story ( ADwD-TWoW ) Martin may changed his mind , or not. That said , Sansa may have been chosen to take that part of Arya's story. Was R+L=J than created just so Jon and one of the Stark girls could have a complicated incestuous romance that would be accepted once the truth of R+L got revealed ?

Are any one of the above alternatives or more than one probable ? Or R+L=J will have no meaning at all whether for Jon's character or anybody else and won't affect the endgame ? Give me your thoughts.

[TimJames]

I think Martin just intended for it to be an Easter Egg. It won't get outright revealed, it will just be there so that fans who find it can momentarily go "oh, cool".

[FCOS]

I think like you say, its a method to bring him into the targaryan bloodline so he can be the subject of the prophecies.

[LordStoneheart]

To bring the blood of Stark and Targaryen together. When looking at each of the family's histories, it really makes Jon a unique combination that will probably make a big difference when fighting the Others.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Was R+L=J than created just so Jon and one of the Stark girls could have a complicated incestuous romance that would be accepted once the truth of R+L got revealed ?

The outline stated that "Jon" and "Arya" would be pining for each other unrequitedly throughout the course of the story, until the end when the reveal about "Jon's" parentage would remove that obstacle and they could happily get it on.

The complicated incestuous romance part was not, in the end, written into the books as published. There has been no groundwork or foundation laid for that particular outcome. So, I think it's a pretty safe bet that R+L=J will serve a different purpose in the story.

[Danilo Sanches]

The complicated incestuous romance part was not, in the end, written into the books as published. There has been no groundwork or foundation laid for that particular outcome. So, I think it's a pretty safe bet that R+L=J will serve a different purpose in the story.

It could be , or maybe Martin just decided to develop it in a different way , maybe with Sansa instead of Arya , i don't know. I'm not exactly a fan of that outcome , but i don't think its a safe bet to discard it.

[imaginepageant]

The series is called A Song of Ice and Fire.

Jon is the son of ice and fire.

Jon is the key to the entire story; that's the purpose of R+L=J.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

It could be , or maybe Martin just decided to develop it in a different way , maybe with Sansa instead of Arya , i don't know. I'm not exactly a fan of that outcome , but i don't think its a safe bet to discard it.

Same thing applies, though. He didn't lay any groundwork for any romance between Jon and either Stark sister. Jon and Arya's feelings for each other are pretty firmly familial and sibling-like, while Jon's few memories of Sansa are fond, but tepid, and Sansa rarely thinks of Jon at all.

If he does have Jon end up married to either of them, it sure would feel sudden and out-of-the-blue. I still think it's a pretty safe bet that it won't happen.

[Mithras]

The first idea that comes to mind is that being a son of Rhaegar ( whether bastard or legitimate ) would give Jon some claim to the Iron Throne. But that doesn't look much like Martin. Most fans agree , me included , that it would be a bit cliché for him to end up as King in the end.

Everything is cliche. What matters is how Jon might end up as the king.

The second idea revolves around Jon being "The Prince That Was Promised" or "Azor Ahai" , given that Rhaegar was apparently obsessed with prophecies and though that a son by him and Lyanna would have fulfilled one of them , and could also allow Jon to ride a dragon. Anyway , it would mean that Jon would be somehow instrumental in fighting and defeating the Others. I don't think that the alternative that Martin created R+l=J so Jon could be the chosen one is completely impossible , but i think i't more likely Daenerys that will fulfill that role.

Then what is the narrative purpose of putting Jon at the central position to lead the war against the Others right from the beginning while Dany does not even know jackshit about the Others for five books? What do you think Jon's story is about if Dany will come and claim all the glory after spending at least 6 books without doing anything about the true threat while Jon is working his ass off in the war against the Others?

Finally , after reading the Waterstone letter there is a final alternative. We find through reading the letter that Martin planned to have a love story between Jon and Arya ( i presume she would be older when he had that idea in the beginning ) , but that they wouldn't act on it because they were half-brothers and Jon was sworn to the Night's Watch. That is , until they find out about Jon's true parentage and their consciousness is relieved about their love affair. Apparently it was an important part of their character development since Martin included in the letter outlining to his friend the story overall concept. But since Arya is still too young at the point we currently are in the story ( ADwD-TWoW ) Martin may changed his mind , or not. That said , Sansa may have been chosen to take that part of Arya's story. Was R+L=J than created just so Jon and one of the Stark girls could have a complicated incestuous romance that would be accepted once the truth of R+L got revealed ?

R+L=J is the mystery of ASOIAF. It was a test question for D&D. Excuse me but designing such an intricate mystery only to work out a romance is one of the most terrible ideas I have seen lately.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm just going to make a list.

1. The song of the Prince That Was Promised is supposedly "the song of ice and fire." Jon is half Stark, half Targaryen. Half ice, half fire. Ice and fire.

2. If the sole purpose of R+L=J was so that Jon and Arya could safely bone down the line, why didn't R+L=J fall by the wayside when the Jon/Arya romance did?

3. I don't think Jon (or anyone, really) is going to sit on the Iron Throne in the end. I think that Jon will be, for practical purposes, a figurehead and a leader of men and probably a guide for his younger family members, like Rickon. Namely, he's really the only person trying to save the realm for its own sake, with no hope or expectation of recognition. His is a case where people are following the man. Tywin's a shit but his line about "a man who has to say that he is the king is no king at all" line was spot on.

4. I think Dany is a red herring in a lot of ways. I also think it's curious that you think the guy who's been on the Wall since nearly the beginning is less likely to be the hinge to defeating the Others than the girl who's been in Essos the whole time and has no idea the Others even exist. A lot of people, very fairly, chafe at the idea of Dany ending up as a function of someone else's story. Yet this type of thinking reduces Jon to being a function of Dany's story. If it's cliche for Jon to become king, isn't it also cliche for someone like Dany to swoop in at the last minute to save the day, despite having little to no previous narrative connection to that part of the story?

5. Obviously R+L=J will affect the endgame somehow or GRRM wouldn't have written it to be the truth. If it has no bearing on the story, why not just make Jon Ned's bastard? I have never, and will never, get the argument that "it won't matter." Likely it will be prophetically and not politically, but it will still matter.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

The outline stated that "Jon" and "Arya" would be pining for each other unrequitedly throughout the course of the story, until the end when the reveal about "Jon's" parentage would remove that obstacle and they could happily get it on.

The complicated incestuous romance part was not, in the end, written into the books as published. There has been no groundwork or foundation laid for that particular outcome. So, I think it's a pretty safe bet that R+L=J will serve a different purpose in the story.

Its not overt 'I'm in love with my bro' but the strong connection is still there. We just have to decide if GRRM made it purely sibling or if he still intends things to take a gross turn. He didn't drop it after AGOT which is making me concerned.

Same thing applies, though. He didn't lay any groundwork for any romance between Jon and either Stark sister. Jon and Arya's feelings for each other are pretty firmly familial and sibling-like, while Jon's few memories of Sansa are fond, but tepid, and Sansa rarely thinks of Jon at all.

If he does have Jon end up married to either of them, it sure would feel sudden and out-of-the-blue. I still think it's a pretty safe bet that it won't happen.

Jon marrying anyone who isn't Sam would be sudden and out of the blue at this point.

[Arya Stark Rules]

4. I think Dany is a red herring in a lot of ways. I also think it's curious that you think the guy who's been on the Wall since nearly the beginning is less likely to be the hinge to defeating the Others than the girl who's been Essos the whole time and has no idea the Others even exist. A lot of people, very fairly, chafe at the idea of Dany ending up as a function of someone else's story. Yet this type of thinking reduces Jon to being a function of Dany's story. If it's cliche for Jon to become king, isn't it also cliche for someone like Dany to swoop in at the last minute to save the day, despite having little to no previous narrative connection to that part of the story?

:agree:

Im more of a Dany fan then Jon but I've always found the idea of her coming in to save the day as horrible writing. What's going on in the north seems like it will be resolved through Bran and Jon.

[khal drogon]

I believe Jon will be important in defeating the Others but R+L=J is not going to be needed for that. I don't believe Stark + Targ blood = super magical blood.So I believe R+L=J is not going to cause much of an impact.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I believe Jon will be important in defeating the Others but R+L=J is not going to be needed for that. I don't believe Stark + Targ blood = super magical blood.So I believe R+L=J is not going to cause much of an impact.

Then what exactly is the point of R+L=J?

It really has two possible effects: political, wherein it enables Jon to press a claim, and/or prophetic, wherein it points to Jon as being key to, presumably, defeating the Others and bringing back elemental balance.

The former idea has various issues (Jon would have to prove it, he might not even want it), leaving me to conclude that it will matter prophetically.

[WeaselPie]

The series is called A Song of Ice and Fire.

Jon is the son of ice and fire.

Jon is the key to the entire story; that's the purpose of R+L=J.

I disagree. There are gobs of other candidates for both the "ice" and the "fire" in the series title, including things that aren't even characters.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Its not overt 'I'm in love with my bro' but the strong connection is still there. We just have to decide if GRRM made it purely sibling or if he still intends things to take a gross turn. He didn't drop it after AGOT which is making me concerned.

Oh, but I think he did drop it. Sure the strong connection is there (I'm assuming you mean between Jon and Arya, not Jon and Sansa). But it seems to me to be very firmly a familial, purely sibling affection with no romantic overtones.

There are far more plausible romantic overtones in Arya's feelings for Gendry than for Jon Snow. IMO.

Jon marrying anyone who isn't Sam would be sudden and out of the blue at this point.

LOL, perfect! :D

[Mithras]

Then what exactly is the point of R+L=J?

It really has two possible effects: political, wherein it enables Jon to press a claim, and/or prophetic, wherein it points to Jon as being key to, presumably, defeating the Others and bringing back elemental balance.

The former idea has various issues (Jon would have to prove it, he might not even want it), leaving me to conclude that it will matter prophetically.

I think it will be eventually involved in the resolution of the political conflict as well. Jon was the best person for the LC of the NW but he was completely unaware of the events that led to his election. He did not even put himself as a candidate.

[Silverscream]

But since Arya is still too young at the point we currently are in the story ( ADwD-TWoW ) Martin may changed his mind , or not. That said , Sansa may have been chosen to take that part of Arya's story. Was R+L=J than created just so Jon and one of the Stark girls could have a complicated incestuous romance that would be accepted once the truth of R+L got revealed ?

Arya's age shouldn't be a factor in GRRM's decision to remove the love triangle/JonxArya storyline. Up until 2002/2003, the five year gap was planned with the purpose of Arya being older and hitting puberty. If GRRM only decided to cut the romance storyline or replace her, it'd be too late to shove in Sansa or even Dany in her place without completely changing their story arcs. And frankly, I see far more hints in series for Jon/Dany or Jon/Arya to happen than Jon/Sansa, if that was what he ended up deciding on happening instead. They wouldn't have had to spend the entire series thinking of each other, but you'd expect GRRM to put more care into setting up a relationship up between the two of them (like having Jon being livid at Tyrion for marrying Sansa, instead he doesn't seem to care, especially compared to his reaction to Ramsay/'Arya'). Why have whole parts of AGOT where Jon doesn't bother to include Sansa in his thoughts when thinking of his family if their relationship was changed to be romantic endgame?

That being said, I find it funny that the only people who seem to be using this triangle as the ultimate proof for their ship to happen is the Jon/Sansa fans. Every one else seems to think it's gross or been completely scrapped. It's just as much of a crackship as it's always been, sorry guys.

[RedShirt47]

... Jon being "The Prince That Was Promised" or "Azor Ahai"....

I think this is the reason for the idea. The prophesy says he will be of the line of Aerys. I think Dany is the Red Herring that the readers are supposed to believe to be AAR so as Jon's true identity is hidden from most readers they will not suspect him as AAR and go with Dany.

Everyone knows it's not Stannis (maybe even Melisandre knows) so the obvious answer then is Dany. But I think she fits too literally into the "wakes dragons from stone" type prophesy. Prophesies have all used imagery and dragons have always referred to Targaryens and not actual dragons.

So I believe that Jon's hidden identity helps Dany as Red Herring for AAR.

[Valyrian Fork]

The purpose is that GRRM has admitted himself he gets bored if he knows exactly what's up with the story, so he wrote in an Easter Egg (actually, a lot of Easter Eggs) to keep himself entertained. Same for a lot of the symbolic references, Arbor Gold, sapphires, emeralds, rubies etc. As much fun as we have combing the books over for this kind of thing, I'm sure he has just as much fun coming up with ideas and then spinning them out into something else.

I think other than E-P-I-C and his super basic plot outline, he doesn't really have much of a "purpose" to anything he writes. He makes up characters and situations and follows where they take him. He's admitted as much. I think as readers, since we see a finalized product that's largely linear, we're predisposed to take the creative process as being linear and goal-oriented. For GRRM, at least, that's clearly not the case and he's said as much. Assuming there's an "objective" behind anything in the books is in most cases probably wrong-headed, I don't think that's how he works.

A good example is the interview he did when TWOIAF came out, some fan asked him a sort of pretentious question about like "how do you reconcile ethnicity and religion in the series?" and GRRM's answer was basically "LOL".

We know that the basic nucleus of the books was in the first scene, which GRRM had a dream of, the wolf with the pups and the antler in it's throat. The dragons (and Dany) came in later at the suggestion of a friend. I think if R+L=J, it's in the books because after he started fleshing out those wolf pups as characters and came up with the Starks, Lannisters, and was developing the immediate past, he asked himself something like "Okay, who is King now, what are the relationship of Starks and Lannisters to him, okay he and Ned are friends, what happened there, okay maybe they grew up together, so why does he marry this horrible Lannister woman but also not notice she's cuckolding him, hrm perhaps he has a tragic lost love" and so on and so forth, and as he was fleshing out Aerys, Rhaegar, Lyanna, Robert B, etc, it's basically what wound up making sense to him both narratively and for the idea he had of those characters as people. Then he went about hiding in the text and dropping hints because that's fun.

If there's a grand literary meaning or plot purpose to it in the final analysis, I think that will be something GRRM develops over the whole series and arises organically in his "garden", not really something he planned on in the beginning.