Valyrian Fork Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I don't understand how anyone can conclude that RLJ is just an "easter egg". That is not what an easter egg is. Oberyn poisoning Tywin, if true, is an easter egg - a nice little find that has no bearing on the grand scheme of things. It has already been mentioned upthread; RLJ significance is either political (Iron Throne) or prophetic (AAR/TPtwP/leading the fight against The Others), or both. That's true if it ends up playing out in a defininitive way in the series and ends up influencing the outcome. If Jon doesn't end up on the throne and also doesn't play a big role in the War For The Dawn II: The Dawnening, or one that isn't influenced by his Targaryen-ness in any way (no Dragonriding, no wargs, no being AAR) and all he ever does are things he could have done because he was a Stark bastard, then yeah, that would make it an Easter Egg. The thing is, we don't know one way or the other yet, so you can't say it's not an Easter Egg, either. It might also end up being a red herring, where it's explicitly revealed in the main plot but doesn't actually affect anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePosterThatWasPromised Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I feel like Jon's story has gone so drastically astray from how Martin intended it to when he wrote that letter that there's virtually no way that Jon ends up with Arya (or likely anyone, though if he ends with anybody, it's gonna be Val) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 That's true if it ends up playing out in a defininitive way in the series and ends up influencing the outcome. If Jon doesn't end up on the throne and also doesn't play a big role in the War For The Dawn II: The Dawnening, or one that isn't influenced by his Targaryen-ness in any way (no Dragonriding, no wargs, no being AAR) and all he ever does are things he could have done because he was a Stark bastard, then yeah, that would make it an Easter Egg. The thing is, we don't know one way or the other yet, so you can't say it's not an Easter Egg, either. It might also end up being a red herring, where it's explicitly revealed in the main plot but doesn't actually affect anything. Lots of "ifs". As Apple Martini has mentioned upthread, this secret has already had an impact on the plot, and a rather large one. Therefore it most certainly does not fall under the category of "easter egg". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 With all due respect.... If Rhaegar believed Aegon was TPTWP and the comet during his conception was such an important part of it, why do we not hear of any comets in relation to the RLJ (origin) story? We of course hear it during recent events for metaphorical rebirths, but that could apply to several characters. TPTWP prophecy is not about the dragon having three heads. Those seem to be two different lines of thought. The AA and LH prophecies, in the same way, have nothing to do with the dragon having three heads. As far as we are aware. I don't want to enter here in speculations about R+L=J and why and how Rhaegar did what he did. Like the OP said, supposing R+L=J is true. I only wish everything was necessary and had a justification for the victory of mankind against the Others and the Long Night. Just one remark: Taking the opportunity of a comet in the sky to conceive a child is not the same as being born (or reborn) while a comet is in the sky. In the first case you chose your time and it is cheating with destiny. And, I was not referring to the dragons and the 3 heads, but I suppose they are related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSB Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 how can a (as cousins) jon/arya ship even be slightly nauseating, in an environment where twins have been rutting since infancy, with three resulting children? where children are trained as sex workers, chubby simpletons are publicly gang-raped, and even the most supposedly refined ruling classes consider the first period of menstruation to signal sexual maturity? with pov certainty no feelings of a lustful nature exist in either's mind while they believe themselves half-siblings (and while arya is EIGHT), should they surface when they meet as cousins, and arya is older, it would seem not just acceptable, but very desirable; from a readers perspective anyway. i would venture too ideal, the stuff of fairy-tales, or jane austen. mansfield park. where would the wedding venue be, perhaps crasters keep, just to give some perspective to the vomit-flecked disapproving members in the congregation - as to the moral standards of the gothroverse within which it all transpires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I don't want to enter here in speculations about R+L=J and why and how Rhaegar did what he did. Like the OP said, supposing R+L=J is true. I only wish everything was necessary and had a justification for the victory of mankind against the Others and the Long Night. Just one remark: Taking the opportunity of a comet in the sky to conceive a child is not the same as being born (or reborn) while a comet is in the sky. In the first case you chose your time and it is cheating with destiny. And, I was not referring to the dragons and the 3 heads, but I suppose they are related. Well I wasn't getting into RLJ really, just pointing out (because of recent conversations in the thread) that "the dragon must have three heads" is not evident in any of the other prophecies, since it's asserted that Rhaegar was so obsessed with prophecies. Why did he think he needed both? TWTWP doesn't need two other heads, not by any mention of that particular prophecy. I agree with what I've underlined from your comment, however, it makes more sense to get um really busy during a comet if that's a huge part of the prophecy. It makes no sense to leave the future to the fate of some metaphorical rebirth coinciding with another pass of the comet (or a different one). Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carey Snow Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Well Sansa is in the Vale and not at the wall so she's nowhere near him either. Both would have to go on a journey to get to him. Arya can sword fight and like boys, love and sex isn't connected with femininity. I also do think she is a bit romantic but a bit young. She has romantic thoughts like staying with the brotherhood as a Maid Marian type and then dismisses it because it seems Sansa-y. Besides look at Jon's relationship with Ygritte, he has a type, he likes independence of mind, a bit of wildness, a girl who can take care of herself and challenge him. A bit Oedipus Rex. Sansa is in this draft. She marries Joffrey, has a kid with him and sides with the Lannisters in the war against Robb. Basically a lot of the themes of her character in the first book but different in how the plot turned out. Very true, everyone's story turned out to be very different (besides poor Ned) than George originally envisioned. Also much better. So while I could see Arya and Jon reuniting, there is no reason to think that they will be romantically involved. Obviously the same with Tyrion and Arya. Besides, Arya was never aged up. Clearly she will hit puberty in the next year or two, but I think Martin originally imagined a 5 year gap which would have put Arya more in the 16-17 year old range (if I am thinking correctly) in his original outline. I do not see the story going there with Arya still so young. Now I could see Sansa falling for Aegon/Harry and having a child, and then having to choose between them and her siblings in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Targaryen Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 At least I can feel safe in that, it was not my dirty mind when I was seeing the built up for a relationship between Jon and Arya: it was the author's intent to do so; and even if he has droped the idea by now, he seems to "ship" them so that he's forgotten to remove the clues :) Same for me. I honestly think that the main reason GRRM made R+L is that he wanted Arya and Jon together. And along the way he created this mystery, created profecies and all those complicated relationships between NEd and familiy, Ned and Robert, etc. For a long time I thought it's just me who thinks Jon will marry Arya in the end, but I had to realize, that even if it is an unpopular idea, I'm not alone. And the clues are there. I know most people don't agree with me, and that's fine. I just want to point out that by the time GRRM wrote the first 3 books, he intended to do the 5 year gap, exactly because Arya needed to hit puberty. That's the main reason I think he still wanted to do the Jon/Arya thing. Now, that he abandoned the 5 year gap, Arya probably won't be old enough, so he may leave it out, or we get a "10 years later" sort of epiloge. But all the clues are there in the first books. It even occured to me that he may write an 8th book just to have more time pass. Or he may just do a Jon/Dany instead. As much as I hate the idea, I have to admit that the possibility is there. But I just can't see anything that point to Jon/Sansa. Right now, I would give the highest chance for Jon dying at the end, or not marrying at all, at least we won't know who he will marry. If he gets a wife, well. it will be Arya or Dany. Any other candidate is far less likely IMO. Yes, even Val. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal'c Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 From a literary standpoint, the purpose of Jon's identity as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen is that Jon is the epic hero of this story. The epic hero is born of royal or divine parentage, and is raised outside of his family of origin. He is called to adventure, visits the underworld, and returns with the great boon which redeems his society. The structure of the story is an archetype across cultures and centuries.Examples include King Arthur, Luke Skywalker, Jesus, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 From a literary standpoint, the purpose of Jon's identity as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen is that Jon is the epic hero of this story. The epic hero is born of royal or divine parentage, and is raised outside of his family of origin. He is called to adventure, visits the underworld, and returns with the great boon which redeems his society. The structure of the story is an archetype across cultures and centuries.Examples include King Arthur, Luke Skywalker, Jesus, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MonomythHe isnt raised outside the family of his birth, he is half Stark who are somewhat divine in their own right. Hes shown no skills his siblings havent and one of which is far more powerful than him. I did my English degree dissertation on Campbell and Arthurian Myth. Love the psyche angle, actually found pure Jung to be more interesting. Jung did lectures on myth himself. Bran and Arya are also monomythic in that they journey beyond the boundaries of the everymans world. You dont have to die and rise again. Like Jason goes to Colchis which is ruled by the children of the Titan Helios for his challenge and comes back with the fleece. But I actually fully believe Medea is the boon as the fleece does nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Campbell CHEERS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal'c Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 He isnt raised outside the family of his birth, he is half Stark who are somewhat divine in their own right. Hes shown no skills his siblings havent and one of which is far more powerful than him.I did my English degree dissertation on Campbell and Arthurian Myth. Love the psyche angle, actually found pure Jung to be more interesting. Jung did lectures on myth himself. Bran and Arya are also monomythic in that they journey beyond the boundaries of the everymans world. You dont have to die and rise again. Like Jason goes to Colchis which is ruled by the children of the Titan Helios for his challenge and comes back with the fleece. But I actually fully believe Medea is the boon as the fleece does nothing.Dany is definitely on an epic journey as well, Too early to say whether the fighting pit was her belly of the whale, but I believe the meeting in the shield hall was Jon's. It even matches in physical description - a cavernous space with the beams as ribs. Clearly he enters the greatest danger there as the assassination attempt follows directly afterward. As far as family of origin, I'm interpreting that as mother, father, and child, and I do think being raised with a hidden identity by an uncle certainly fits as outside the family of origin. Bran, Arya, and Davos all are fulfilling some of the monomyth parameters. Davos even visits a pub called the Belly of the Whale. These cases I feel are parallel structure, where George places more overt references and makes us find the more subtle examples elsewhere, as in the case of Jon's true identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ned's Little Girl Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 how can a (as cousins) jon/arya ship even be slightly nauseating, in an environment where twins have been rutting since infancy, with three resulting children? where children are trained as sex workers, chubby simpletons are publicly gang-raped, and even the most supposedly refined ruling classes consider the first period of menstruation to signal sexual maturity? Because the twins rutting is nauseating? It's meant to be shocking and unnatural, both to readers and to the inhabitants in the story. Just because it happens in the story doesn't mean that it's supposed to be considered normal behavior. And I believe that first menstruation is an indication of sexual maturity, at least biologically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imaginepageant Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 how can a (as cousins) jon/arya ship even be slightly nauseating, in an environment where twins have been rutting since infancy, with three resulting children? I can only speak for myself, of course, but since I do find Jon/Arya nauseating but not Jaime/Cersei, I thought I'd chime in on why. We're introduced almost immediately to Jaime and Cersei being in a sexual relationship; we never see them living as siblings and treating each other like siblings, so right out of the gate, the relationship feels less incestuous. We know that they're the same age and thus matured at roughly the same time; there was never a point where one was sexually mature and the other wasn't (aside from maybe a few months' time between, say, Jaime's first erection and Cersei's first flowering). We also know that, as children, they were caught "playing" (not "rutting") out of innocent curiosity, as many children do, and chastised for it by their mother. They grew together and they learned together. On the other hand, we see Jon and Arya's relationship begin as siblings, and only siblings. We see Jon years older than Arya, maturing into a man while she was still very much a little girl. Even now, after Jon has had a sexual relationship with a woman, Arya is still, sexually speaking, a little girl. The idea of a Jon and Arya relationship is disturbing to me because Jon is a mature adult and Arya is a child; the incestuous aspect does not bother me half so much as the pedophilia aspect does. Of course, George didn't plan for them to be romantic while Arya was still so young. But imagining them falling in love ten years down the line still doesn't sit well with me when I can't let go of the image of the sexually mature Jon and the innocent child Arya. And I can't imagine Jon meeting Arya again after all those years and not thinking of her as the little girl he grew up with, regardless of how much blood they share. A man looking at a woman he only ever knew as a child and wanting to fuck her is just icky to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
239JMFL34109 Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 i alway thought Jon would find out about it and instead telling the whole world would bury the information because i alway felt it would be right in GRRM playhouse to have jon the "true king" be the one to end "kings" as they exist in westeros at least at the end of the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 i alway thought Jon would find out about it and instead telling the whole world would bury the information because i alway felt it would be right in GRRM playhouse to have jon the "true king" be the one to end "kings" as they exist in westeros at least at the end of the book. I'm one of the few R+L=J fans here that wants Jon to be king, and in the end, rescind the monarchy system, setting up a Westerosi style Freehold without slaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Flandrensis Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 The series is called A Song of Ice and Fire. Jon is the son of ice and fire. Jon is the key to the entire story; that's the purpose of R+L=J. Bingo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
239JMFL34109 Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 I'm one of the few R+L=J fans here that wants Jon to be king, and in the end, rescind the monarchy system, setting up a Westerosi style Freehold without slaves. i always like the idea of Jon turning the night's watch (which already votes in it's leader) in a proto-parliament and then over the long years having the Lord commander position into a what the First Lord of the Treasury became in the UK today( IT is the title of what we now call the Prime Minister of the united Kingdom) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 It exists so that Dany will swear him fealty, thus uniting 2 of the big 3 and giving him the strength to make the third bend the knee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookieeg Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 If GRRM intended a Jon-Tyrion-Arya love triangle more than 20 years ago, and if he intends to still have conflict between Jon and Tyrion over a mutual love interest, it seems to me that Arya would be replaced by Dany. I think Tyrion ends up as part of Dany's court, probably as a Dragon rider. Clues to this are from early in GoT, where Tyrion reads the book about dragons and then designs a saddle that Bran can use. I can imagine Tyrion designing a saddle that makes dragon ridding much more comfortable. And if he is indeed Aerys's son, he will have the requisite Targ blood for dragon riding. Jon's warg abilities, his Targ blood (assuming R+L=J) make him a likely candidate for a dragon rider. That and the fact that dragons might be extremely useful in fighting (and incinerating) the Others. Danny (and Tyrion) riding dragons to the rescue of the North would actully give her something useful to do instead of remaking societies in Essos. Dany's nation (re)building isn't exactly going as planned. Frankly, the idea of Tyrion and Jorah both mooning over Dany makes me want to gag. But then Tyrion doesn't have the best judgement when it comes to women, so I could see it. I also think that some of the love that shouldn't be/brother-sister conflict was put into the Jaime-Cersei relationship. J and C may have no problem with loving each other, but the rest of Westeros certainly does. Lastly, I don't see how Arya gets to the Wall and how, once there, Jon contemplates breaking his vows (again) for her. She is his little sister. Yes he loves her, but I just can't see it beyond a fierce sibling love, clues or no clues. Dany, if she is his fellow dragon rider, beautiful and powerful and not willing to take no for an answer, that could be much more of a temptation. Remember she could release Jon from his vows, althought I only see him agreeing to be released for the good of the realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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