Heresy 159

[WeaselPie]

To be fair I don't think that Ran was dismissing the mythology, although it may have come over a bit that way, but rather the extrapolation of it to figure out how this will end. As I've said before its good to figure out the ingredients but its GRRM's recipe as to how much of each goes in to the blender and what comes out of the comes out of the oven. Bloodraven and Kurtz are one and the same but there's much more to this than the Heart of Darkness, and a story which mingles it with the Mabinogion, the Tain, Ragnarok and all the other influences historical and mythological, isn't going to turn out as any one of them did simply due to the diversity of the sources. It's GRRM's story, not theirs.

All of which being said it remains both educational and fun to explore them in a way which seems unique to Heresy.

Do you think GRRM read Heart of Darkness, or just really, really liked Apocalypse Now?

[Matthew.]

Is there really so much overlap in characterization and journey that it's accurate to call Kurtz and Bloodraven one and the same? I agree that there is a Heart of Darkness element there - and it may even be predictive of Bran's future, if he's going to be one part god-on-earth, one part prisoner - but Kurtz = Bloodraven doesn't really ring true to me on anything more than a superficial level.

[Black Crow]

Do you think GRRM read Heart of Darkness, or just really, really liked Apocalypse Now?

I'd say both. I came to Heart of Darkness through Apocalypse Now. I was much later struck by how much the condensed HBO version of Bran's journey resembled Willard's in Apocalyse Now, went back and re-read Darkness and was even more astonished at how closely the whole business of the approach to the cave and the Kurtz of the book matched that of Bloodraven.

Here's something I prepared earlier:

The Heart of Darkness

In general there is an assumption that the Heart of Winter which Bran saw in his vision with the three-eyed crow is to be found in the geography of Westeros, somewhere in or even beyond the Lands of Always Winter - and that it is where the mysterious Others come from. A few threads back, however, I suggested that it might be something else entirely and related to Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness.

As with GRRM’s own work, Conrad’s story is multi-layered with different shades of meaning. Thus at one level the Heart of Darkness is the unknown African wilderness itself; a vast blank space on the map just as like the haunted forest and the Lands of Always Winter. GRRM has previously cited standing on Hadrian’s Wall as a major inspiration, but it was not just the structure which attracted him: We walked along the top of the wall just as the sun was going down. It was the fall. I stood there and looked out over the hills of Scotland and wondered what it would be like to be a Roman centurion from Italy, Greece, or even Africa, covered in furs and not knowing what would be coming out of the north at you. I wanted to capture that feeling.

But of course sooner or later the story has to move beyond the Wall and into the dark continent beyond. There, in Conrad’s book the darkness also applies not just to the wilderness and to those savage tribes who live there, but also to those who intruded on it, whether the Romans in Britain, the First Men in Westeros or those venturing singling into the interior to become seduced and ultimately consumed by it.

Singularly it applies to Kurtz, the man at the Inner Station around whom Conrad’s story revolves. The narrator, Marlow, is to go into the interior in search of Kurtz, who ostensibly is an ivory trader but soon turns out to be something more. Like Bloodraven, Kurtz is an enigma, a man of great reputation, brilliant, “Dreamer, Wizard, call him what you will” but also mysterious in his effective disappearance. When last heard of Kurtz was sick but instead of coming down the river he had inexplicably turned back, alone, hence Marlow’s journey upstream to find him. In this too Kurtz also resembles Bloodraven, for there is no hint of his fate, no mention of the Lord Commander’s supposed death or comment on his vanishing, but if we take Kurtz’ as a precedent, then his failure to return is more explicable and might be something to be regretted as an inconvenience at the time but not so memorable as a bloody disaster or a mysterious and unexplained disappearance.

When Marlow and Bran arrive at the Inner Station and at the Cave respectively [both of which are extensively decorated with skulls] neither Kurtz nor Bloodraven are dead; they only look that way, as Marlow strikingly tells it: His covering had fallen off, and his body emerged from it pitiful and appalling as from a winding sheet. I could see the cage of his ribs all astir, the bones of his arm waving. It was as though an animated image of death carved out of old ivory had been shaking its hand with menaces…

Compare and contrast that with Bran’s description of Bloodraven at first meeting: “His body was so skeletal and his clothes so rotted that at first Bran took him for another corpse, a dead man propped up so long that the roots had grown over him, under him, and through him. What skin the corpse lord showed was white… A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through.”

They are different, but only in detail; Bran is looking at Kurtz, and Marlow at Bloodraven, and like Bloodraven, Kurtz is venerated as a god. This is very explicit in Heart of Darkness and implicit in:

The last greenseer, the singers called him…”Most of him has gone into the tree,” explained the singer Meera called Leaf. “He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know.”

Yet there is also another character who strongly resembles Kurtz. The latter has descended quite literally into the heart of darkness, both physically and metaphorically, becoming a part of the horror. “He had withered; it had taken him, loved him, embraced him, got into his veins, consumed his flesh and sealed his soul to its own by the inconceivable ceremonies of some devilish initiation.”

While that reference to Kurtz most immediately describes Bloodraven it also recalls the Nights King; a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

Ultimately the identification of both Bloodraven and the Nights King with Kurtz – all three of whom have been taken by the darkness - not only offers an insight into the Heart of Winter which so terrified Bran in his vision, but also offers an answer to the mysterious Others; confirming them not as an icy version of a Dothraki horde, but as Craster’s sons, humans taken over and corrupted by the horror at the Heart of Darkness.

By way of a postscriptum: Marlow’s journey up the river to find Kurtz is not without hardship and incident, and it culminates in his steamer being attacked by natives very shortly before reaching the Inner Station. Here in Heresy we have speculated in the past that there is something fishy about the ambush of Bran and the Scooby Gang by wights lurking outside the cave, and that perhaps the wights may have been guarding rather than besieging it. In that context, it may be rather significant that in Conrad’s version, the Russian, [filling in very effectively for Coldhands in his admiration for Kurtz], tells Marlow that it was Kurtz himself who had ordered the attack on the steamer!

[JNR]

To be fair I don't think that Ran was dismissing the mythology, although it may have come over a bit that way, but rather the extrapolation of it to figure out how this will end.

Certainly. He's talking about the mythology --> theory jump:

Anything with "heresy" in the title. Any theory that makes tenuous claims by making esoteric comparisons to mythology (sorry, guys, George really doesn't work that way). Any "theory" that is simply a claim that can't be 100% disproved but otherwise has no support but the basest conjecture.

Of course he's right about that. GRRM's idea of a clever puzzle is not one that requires people to be familiar with Welsh mythology to figure it out. The canon alone will always suffice.

He's gone to enormous trouble to set up his clues, make sure his characters only know what they're supposed to know and act on that basis, etc., exactly so that we as smart readers can sift through it and figure it out. (And man, that was a lot of work on his part.)

Thing is, Heretical discussion is less about jumping straight from myths to theories, and much more about questioning casual assumptions, fantasy tropes, and cliched/predictable character and plot development.

When I read the theories Ran endorsed in that AMA, I just had to chuckle. GRRM's best-informed fan... that late in the game... saying things like that!

But I'll at least give him credit for sticking out his neck in one area, the prediction that Quaithe is Ashara. I have no idea where he got that one.

[Black Crow]

Again, to be fair, the reference to Heresy was only one in a string of pet peeves, and the mythology business is something that has been all over the board and not just here, with Ragnarok and Odin getting regular outings. As to the rest I agree, and especially as to how the lady in red mask can flit across to a pole-boat on the Rhoyne? :cool4:

[JNR]

especially as to how the lady in red mask can flit across to a pole-boat on the Rhoyne? :cool4:

Well, his thinking is apparently that Ashara was brought up in Westeros, daughter of a lord at Starfall... but then she suddenly faked her suicide and became a shadowbinder and went to Essos and thus was in Qarth when Dany visited.

If he thinks she has any connection to Lemore, that's not clear to me.

But I am intrigued at this premise that Ashara is really the one sending Dany these enigmatic messages. The whole thing seems preposterous and unlikely, which of course makes it fair game for Heresy. Ain't nothing orthodox about Quaithe = Ashara.

(I'm also curious why Quaithe is so annoyingly vague, no matter who she is. I can't see any reason she would need to be, other than plot convenience for GRRM, who would probably prefer that Quaithe doesn't give away all his painstaking mysteries via straight talk.)

[Black Crow]

Doesn't account for Ashara of course but it does mean that at one end of the world - or at least that part covered by the story - we have a witch consorting with Jon Snow wearing an icy white mask, and at the other end a witch in a fiery red mask consorting with the Mother of Dragons.

[Urrax2]

.... (I'm also curious why Quaithe is so annoyingly vague, no matter who she is. I can't see any reason she would need to be, other than plot convenience for GRRM, who would probably prefer that Quaithe doesn't give away all his painstaking mysteries via straight talk.)

Maybe she's like an oracle, just passing on the ambiguous info that has been revealed to her.

[Black Crow]

Maybe she's like an oracle, just passing on the ambiguous info that has been revealed to her.

A good point and in that respect perhaps no different from Coldhands. I certainly have trouble seeing her as a major character.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

But the key difference between Quaithe and an oracle would be that the oracle typically waits for you to come and ask for advice. Ambiguity is part of the deal... caveat emptor, know thyself, etc. In contrast, given that nobody ever asks Quaithe for her opinion, she really ought to speak more clearly. After a while, the unsolicited riddles just come across as trolling.

[History of Westeros]

What do you guys think regarding the accuracy of Amazon/publisher blurbs in general?

There have been some incredibly inaccurate ones (I still laugh at "to the shores of Winterfell" from the old Clash of Kings blurb) so I trust them not at all. Is there a reason to trust this latest one or are we likely falling into the same trap again?

[Voice]

What do you guys think regarding the accuracy of Amazon/publisher blurbs in general?

There have been some incredibly inaccurate ones (I still laugh at "to the shores of Winterfell" from the old Clash of Kings blurb) so I trust them not at all. Is there a reason to trust this latest one or are we likely falling into the same trap again?

If you're talking about the 1993 letter, that's far more than a blurb, and from the author himself. If you're talking about the ADWD blurb, yeah, not very reliable.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

What do you guys think regarding the accuracy of Amazon/publisher blurbs in general?

There have been some incredibly inaccurate ones (I still laugh at "to the shores of Winterfell" from the old Clash of Kings blurb) so I trust them not at all. Is there a reason to trust this latest one or are we likely falling into the same trap again?

I trust them as much as I trust any blurb... which is: not at all. And what is this "latest one" to which you refer? (In Heresy, we sometimes like to assign unmerited importance to long-outdated and superseded "blurbs." :) )

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

If you're talking about the 1993 letter, that's far more than a blurb, and from the author himself. If you're talking about the ADWD blurb, yeah, not very reliable.

Agreed. That's not just a blurb. It's more like a "primary source blurb."

[JNR]

But the key difference between Quaithe and an oracle would be that the oracle typically waits for you to come and ask for advice. Ambiguity is part of the deal... caveat emptor, know thyself, etc. In contrast, given that nobody ever asks Quaithe for her opinion, she really ought to speak more clearly. After a while, the unsolicited riddles just come across as trolling.

Ha, yes! That's a great theory: Quaithe is really a troll. She's just yanking Dany's chain because it amuses her.

"Soon comes the Triforked Beard and the Floppy Ears and the Bored Reader."

Just once, I'd like to see an oracle type say something like:

"Please, please don't bang Daario. Guy is a Sears Craftsman tool. Instead, you need to get your dragons in a row, line up your Unsullied, bail on Meereen, and march your ass to Volantis. You'll find Tyrion Lannister there, and he knows a lot about dragons, which means he can help you figure out how to control them. Critical info you need if they're going to be any use when you invade Westeros in the next book."

What do you guys think regarding the accuracy of Amazon/publisher blurbs in general?

There have been some incredibly inaccurate ones (I still laugh at "to the shores of Winterfell" from the old Clash of Kings blurb) so I trust them not at all. Is there a reason to trust this latest one or are we likely falling into the same trap again?

I don't trust them either. Mere curiosities.

[Matthew.]

I'm guessing that Elio and Linda thinking that Quaithe may be Ashara would have something to do with their belief that House Dayne are stewards awaiting the return of Azor Ahai, and would thus have a greater degree of knowledge about what happened in the past, and what's to come with all of this AA/PtWP business.

If I'm not mistaken, there's also a scene in Dany's final aDwD chapter where she has a vision of Quaithe juxtaposed against the stars in the night sky, which I suppose that someone really going into crackpot territory might take as a hint that would associate Qaithe with Starfall. Personally, I think Quaithe of the Shadow is...Quaithe of the Shadow :dunno:

[JNR]

Quaithe: Are you there, Dany? It's me, Quaithe.

Dany: OMG. Not you again.

Quaithe: But I have more cryptic messages.

Dany: Whatever. I'm putting my fingers in my ears.

Quaithe: Beware the punani magic pizza!

Dany: You're totally trolling me. I must keep calm and not feed the troll. I'm using the Ignore feature.

Quaithe: Three orgasms shall you have by the eerie hand!

Dany: Oh yeah, I absolutely believe your sage wisdom.

[History of Westeros]

Doesn't account for Ashara of course but it does mean that at one end of the world - or at least that part covered by the story - we have a witch consorting with Jon Snow wearing an icy white mask, and at the other end a witch in a fiery red mask consorting with the Mother of Dragons.

That's a cool catch. Not sure it means anything though, it's not as if Jon has had any real byplay with her. He gave her Queensgate and sent her off, that's seems to be about it.

But perhaps Morna has a role yet to be played. With Jon's new role as UnJon, his ties to the supernatural could develop further.

[Wolf Girl Arya]

I have no idea how it took me this long to find this thread but I'm so happy I have! It's like finally seeing land after drifting out at sea for so long.

I'm a heratic in so many, many ways. I'm firmly in the "it'll be much more interesting if Arthur Dayne is Jon's father" camp (made a post over on reddit which surprise surprise wasn't very well received), I think Ned and Ashara actually did have a stillborn daughter or they have a bastard daughter (whom might be Allyria) together, Lyanna did not willingly go off with Rhaegar...the list goes on and on but I'll try to restrain myself for the time being.

I'm looking forward to getting caught up (on the current thread at least...can't promise anything about the other 158 threads!) and delving into interesting discussions! You lot seem like a fantastic bunch.

[History of Westeros]

I trust them as much as I trust any blurb... which is: not at all. And what is this "latest one" to which you refer? (In Heresy, we sometimes like to assign unmerited importance to long-outdated and superseded "blurbs." :) )

The one Black Crow keeps putting at the start of Heresy threads is what I'm referring to:

"Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance."