Heresy 159

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Perhaps its switched on but he can't get it tuned properly, or reception is crap because the Hightower antenna has burnt out or the batteries have failed. And yes I agree, I find them disturbingly high tech.

You would need a glass candle for both sides of the conversation, otherwise you are just limited to altering people's dreams:

Selmy: "Your Grace, an Archmaester Marwyn arrived this morning. From Oldtown. In Westeros."

Dany: "Archmaester? That's a very long journey. I'll see him at once. What does he wish to say?"

Selmy: "Actually, your Grace, he's already departed. Just asked to see our breaker box. Checked the Pyramid antennas. Then he plugged in your glass candle, and got back on the boat for Oldtown."

Dany: "How very odd."

Selmy: "He requested that you to tune into Channel 3."

[JNR]

Define 'grownup' :D

A site on which it's deemed acceptable, and is in practice common, for people to say "fuck."

Why should any such site need a mod? If you don't like what someone says, simply don't read his or her posts. If you don't want any chance of reading them, use the Ignore feature. Nobody needs to play the role of stern governess.

And really, nothing on this site should get anyone upset. These are works of fiction; we discuss them for fun. Even GRRM or D&D should, in my view, be beyond caring deeply what any random stranger has to say about their creative projects. Collectively we have made them millionaires, and that flat-out trumps idle criticism from anonymous strangers.

[JNR]

Did you find the palantiri too high tech for Middle Earth?

:agree:

The Arthur C. Clarke line works backwards, too. That is: any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.

[Frey family reunion]

But when those mods unilaterally favor one group over the other...

It does seem interesting that on a site which is run by business partners of GRRM, there is no problem with a thread allegedly giving away Martin's big secret reveal of Jon's parents, and not only letting the thread exist, but pinning it to the front page of the main message board.

[JNR]

It does seem interesting that on a site which is run by business partners of GRRM, there is no problem with a thread allegedly giving away Martin's big secret reveal of Jon's parents, and not only letting the thread exist, but pinning it to the front page of the main message board.

On the other hand, those same business partners are on record recently stating their confidence in R+L=J is so great, they don't even consider it a theory.

Conceive of the discomfort of those business partners should they be proven wrong, and should that statement be quoted again, and again, and again as a result, in their own forums. This tells me their belief is sincere, and they see no chance of that event happening.

[Balerion06]

It does seem interesting that on a site which is run by business partners of GRRM, there is no problem with a thread allegedly giving away Martin's big secret reveal of Jon's parents, and not only letting the thread exist, but pinning it to the front page of the main message board.

That's just to distract from the big twist that Jon had no father. He was conceived by the Force uhhhh magic

It'll all be revealed when Howland Reed takes a midichlorian count Targ blood sample of Jon

[Black Crow]

It does seem interesting that on a site which is run by business partners of GRRM, there is no problem with a thread allegedly giving away Martin's big secret reveal of Jon's parents, and not only letting the thread exist, but pinning it to the front page of the main message board.

Allows people to proclaim it and elaborate on it without cluttering up the rest of the board, and to be fair the promoters of the theory do have to ask for it to be pinned, just as Wolfmaid asked nicely for the Heresy link thread to be pinned.

[Black Crow]

Selmy: "Your Grace, an Archmaester Marwyn arrived this morning. From Oldtown. In Westeros."

Dany: "Archmaester? That's a very long journey. I'll see him at once. What does he wish to say?"

Selmy: "Actually, your Grace, he's already departed. Just asked to see our breaker box. Checked the Pyramid antennas. Then he plugged in your glass candle, and got back on the boat for Oldtown."

Dany: "How very odd."

Selmy: "He requested that you to tune into Channel 3."

:rofl:

[markg171]

Interesting, but I'd pretty much go with your initial conclusion. He has always been Brandon Stark and the increasing use of his "real" name is a way of showing him growing up and steadily transforming from the cute young kid called Bran into Brandon Stark the greenseer. I dare say that as a young boy his predecessor and now mentor, Brynden Blackwood, was once known as Bryn.

That would be an interesting parallel

[JNR]

Re GRRM reading the site: The last thing I saw on this topic was that at one point Parris did, to notify him of anything of significance.

Now, what would be significant? I would think fans suddenly figuring out major puzzles -- not individually, but collectively.

So where would Parris look, in that department? I would guess RLJ, Heresy, and the odd additional thread that addresses that area, and that gains traction, such as this one. But she might have given up reading a long time ago.

I don't think Ran or Linda would deliberately mislead anybody about their basic beliefs and I doubt the site is designed to keep the readers fooled. But if I'm wrong about that, there's an easy explanation: I was misled and fooled.

[Black Crow]

That would be an interesting parallel

Yes and I think a very deliberate one too.

[markg171]

Has anybody ever noticed this before?

The floppy ears she chose today were made of sheer white linen, with a fringe of golden tassels. With Jhiqui’s help, she wound the tokar about herself correctly on her third attempt. Irri fetched her crown, wrought in the shape of the three-headed dragon of her House. Its coils were gold, its wings silver, its three heads ivory, onyx, and jade. Dany’s neck and shoulders would be stiff and sore from the weight of it before the day was done. A crown should not sit easy on the head. One of her royal forebears had said that, once. Some Aegon, but which one? Five Aegons had ruled the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. There would have been a sixth, but the Usurper’s dogs had murdered her brother’s son when he was still a babe at the breast. If he had lived, I might have married him. Aegon would have been closer to my age than Viserys. Dany had only been conceived when Aegon and his sister were murdered. Their father, her brother Rhaegar, perished even earlier, slain by the Usurper on the Trident. Her brother Viserys had died screaming in Vaes Dothrak with a crown of molten gold upon his head. They will kill me too if I allow it. The knives that slew my Stalwart Shield were meant for me.

Dany says that she was conceived when Aegon and Rhaenys were murdered in the Sack... But Aegon and Rhaenys died after Rhaella had already left for Dragonstone. Which Jaime said happened as soon as Aerys heard that Rhaegar had lost the Trident.

“My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father’s son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all.” He remembered how Rossart’s eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. “Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I’ll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him... that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.

Furthermore, she says that she was conceived after Rhaegar died at the Trident... But according to Jaime, that's impossible

The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him. A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. “You’re hurting me,” they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. “You’re hurting me.” In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted’s screaming. “We are sworn to protect her as well,” Jaime had finally been driven to say. “We are,” Darry allowed, “but not from him.”

Jaime says that Aerys only slept with Rhaella when he burned someone. The last person he burned occurred while Darry was in King's Landing, thus placing Aerys and Rhaella's last night together here. We know that Darry left with Rhaegar for the Trident, but Dany is saying here that she was conceived after this.

All together, this would mean that she couldn't be a child of Aerys. So either Dany and Jaime are mistaken, or GRRM left a hint here that Dany isn't who she thinks she is as I know people have expressed doubts about before.

[Balerion06]

Yes and I think a very deliberate one too.

I don't know if there's any significance to it , but it is interesting that neither Bran nor Summer bear any of the trademark physical characteristics of greenseers. Bloodraven and Ghost look like weirwoods, while Jojen and Shaggydog have the signature green eyes.

[JNR]

All together, this would mean that she couldn't be a child of Aerys. So either Dany and Jaime are mistaken, or GRRM left a hint here that Dany isn't who she thinks she is as I know people have expressed doubts about before.

I would guess she was conceived just before the Sack, and quite possibly the night before Rhaella left for Dragonstone. From AFFC:

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

By the end the Mad King had become so fearful that he would allow no blade in his presence, save for the swords his Kingsguard wore. His beard was matted and unwashed, his hair a silver-gold tangle that reached his waist, his fingernails cracked yellow claws

This isn't definitive by any means, since Jaime has only heard "whispering," but it fits. She would have been born on Dragonstone at the time Viserys told her.

[Urrax2]

...All together, this would mean that she couldn't be a child of Aerys. So either Dany and Jaime are mistaken, or GRRM left a hint here that Dany isn't who she thinks she is as I know people have expressed doubts about before.

It's not saying that Dany's conception occurred when A&R were murdered, but that at that time she was only in a conceived condition, if you will. Nor does Jaime say that they slept together only when someone had been burned; rather, they did so then and rarely otherwise.

[markg171]

I would guess she was conceived just before the Sack, and quite possibly the night before Rhaella left for Dragonstone. From AFFC:

This isn't definitive by any means, since Jaime has only heard "whispering," but it fits. She would have been born on Dragonstone at the time Viserys told her.

But that wouldn't make sense as Darry was there that night, and Darry died at the Trident, and Rhaella was only sent to Dragonstone after the defeat at the Trident according to Jaime.

It's not saying that Dany's conception occurred when A&R were murdered, but that at that time she was only in a conceived condition, if you will. Nor does Jaime say that they slept together only when someone had been burned; rather, they did so then and rarely otherwise.

I'm inclined to believe it's simply mistakes. God knows it must be hard keeping track of that many characters and where they were and when so they're bound to happen, and GRRM has said before that they do. Just seemed an odd thing for Dany to think of, when you try and reconcile it with Jaime's recollection.

But then again, if we go by this, it's also clear that her source is wrong about things

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship’s black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King’s Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper’s dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar’s heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father’s throat with a golden sword.

Dany knows what she knows from Viserys. This passage is written in chronological order, except seemingly for Viserys and Rhaella fleeing for Dragonstone before the Sack. If we go by Viserys' timeline, then Dany can be conceived by the raping of Rhaella scene, and Darry can be present for it as Rhaegar dies afterwards instead of before which is when Darry also died.

So somewhere there's a mistake in our timelines. Either Viserys is right, Dany is right, or Jaime is right. But they don't really all work together.

[Voice]

Has anybody ever noticed this before?

Dany says that she was conceived when Aegon and Rhaenys were murdered in the Sack... But Aegon and Rhaenys died after Rhaella had already left for Dragonstone. Which Jaime said happened as soon as Aerys heard that Rhaegar had lost the Trident.

Furthermore, she says that she was conceived after Rhaegar died at the Trident... But according to Jaime, that's impossible

Jaime says that Aerys only slept with Rhaella when he burned someone. The last person he burned occurred while Darry was in King's Landing, thus placing Aerys and Rhaella's last night together here. We know that Darry left with Rhaegar for the Trident, but Dany is saying here that she was conceived after this.

All together, this would mean that she couldn't be a child of Aerys. So either Dany and Jaime are mistaken, or GRRM left a hint here that Dany isn't who she thinks she is as I know people have expressed doubts about before.

R+L=Twins Jon and Dany?

[JNR]

But that wouldn't make sense as Darry was there that night, and Darry died at the Trident, and Rhaella was only sent to Dragonstone after the defeat at the Trident according to Jaime.

I don't think Darry was there; I think Darry had recently died, as you say.

The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him."

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone.

The phrase "once after that" means there's no apparent conflict.

[markg171]

R+L=Twins Jon and Dany?

This wouldn't really work. I'm fine with the twin theory in general. But Dany is still saying that she was conceived around the right time, she's just seemingly placing her conception after Darry's death and around when Aegon and Rhaenys died, when it should be before they died.

There's also the issue of the timeline then. People are assuming that Ned arrived at the Tower of Joy within like a month of the Sack seeing as Jon is apparently 8-9 months older than Dany according to GRRM. It could be that that was a lie or has since been changed, but if we assume that they're twins and therefore born together and conceived like Dany says, then that would place the battle at the TOJ like 9 months after the Sack. Which is problematic as Rhaegar is already dead by this point and therefore couldn't have impregnated Lyanna.

What this was getting at to me, assuming it's not a mistake or Dany simply doesn't know her timelines, is that Rhaella was therefore impregnated after she already left Aerys which would point to someone else being the father as he can't impregnate Rhaella when he's not there.

I'm assuming though that Dany just doesn't know what she's talking about. Jaime's timeline more or less works that Darry can be present for the conception as Aerys rapes Rhaella after burning Chelstad, while not being present when Rhaella flees to Dragonstone as he's already dead.

[markg171]

I don't think Darry was there; I think Darry had recently died, as you say.

The phrase "once after that" means there's no apparent conflict.

I simply meant that it doesn't work that Darry can be present for the rape, and then Rhaella leaves the next day as Rhaella only leaves after the Trident. Darry still has to get to the Trident and die, and news of the defeat has to get to King's Landing for Rhaella to flee which makes everything happening in 1 day to be unlikely.

But I do agree that Darry can be present for the rape, but not for the fleeing to Dragonstone yes. It just can't happen within a day of each other.