wolfmaid7 Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Are there more than one? Sort of seems like it's just Marwyn who is devoted to the Higher Mysteries, but I could definitely be wrong...hard to remember... And speaking of forgetting things, I totally forgot about Walgrave's key!!! Think about this. AFFC and ADWD are two halves of the same book...sort of. If we combine them into a single volume we have: In the prologue, Pate bringing Jaqen the key belonging to the keeper of the Citadel's white ravens... Then in the epilogue, there is a white raven in Pycelle's quarters... Might it be Winter hasn't truly come yet after all? Or did I just crack another iron cooking vessel? From what Luuwin had said there are a few and most often their devotion is seen as foolhardy.Yeah it being specifically Walgrave's Key that got my attention,he isn't the only Archmaester to my knowledge at the Citadel (is there one more?) so is there another key?But that it should be Walgrave's is peculiar,but given what we know of the man it could be by design because as you say he was the Keeper of the White Ravens and the man is older than Father Time.I think Winter has come given the signs in the external world,but i think there's something to the points you brought up. The real purpose in him being 998th is so that he can return as 999th, which upside down is 666... Illuminati... LOL Yes it is so obvious....The spawn of the Mayqueen and He-who- Cannot- Be -Named ( because we are still trying to figure that out) will rise harder and stronger. That is beside the point I was trying to make, but noted and agreed. Mercy-killing and suicide are just as possible as childbirth. Re: the convo about the Citadel maesters vs. greenseers, we already have a SCREAMING example of a Maester specifically placed with the Starks, who also happens to be a Hightower. Barbrey goes out of her way to remind us. Maybe the Citadel is more in the know than we give them credit.They have a lot of the history though maybe watered down in some places but some of them may have guessed that the Old Powers (GS) have been stirred once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Sure, I can dig that. The whole ravenry idea, spending time with ravens, teaching them words, sending messages... all evokes Old Gods imagery. I don't mind saying there are two at the Citadel then, who've gone beyond forging a Valyrian link in terms of the Higher Mysteries. But it still seems like both Marwyn and Walgrave are marginalized. The institution of the Citadel, according to Marwyn, seems quite opposed to magic. While their element obviously exists, and is making gains (the candles are burning), they seem to be the subversive element in hiding, rather than respected for their strides. It's come up before in Heresy, and it makes for an interesting discussion. Because as you say, the two "magic" maesteries look like they may have been marginalized... cubby-holed off on the Isle of Ravens, an old forsaken building on the backside of campus, as it were. Yet there's certainly something puzzling and contradictory about the relationship between the Citadel and magic. The Citadel was founded, and is still patronized, by House Hightower. And at the end of AFFC, we're told that "Lord Leyton's locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells..." while the ironmen raid the coasts, and Oldtown itself is practically under siege. So how do we reconcile the idea of an anti-magic Citadel with the fact that its political and financial backer consults with the old powers? And more broadly... why would the Citadel keep Walgrave and Marwyn around at all, with their magical interests, if part of its mission was to snuff that stuff out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 Sure, I can dig that. The whole ravenry idea, spending time with ravens, teaching them words, sending messages... all evokes Old Gods imagery. I don't mind saying there are two at the Citadel then, who've gone beyond forging a Valyrian link in terms of the Higher Mysteries. But it still seems like both Marwyn and Walgrave are marginalized. The institution of the Citadel, according to Marwyn, seems quite opposed to magic. While their element obviously exists, and is making gains (the candles are burning), they seem to be the subversive element in hiding, rather than respected for their strides. I'm inclined to see it more in the nature of vetting who gets admitted to the higher mysteries. Marwyn is clearly as dodgy as they come - and keen on dragons - and therefore may be kept at arms length and not be regarded as a suitable person to be brought into what's really going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Dragons Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Well you've got a great memory, then... that's just the next part of Sam's statement to Jon. There was some discussion of these lists in a (relatively) recent Heresy thread... oh, about a dozen renditions back. We even did a bit of math, to estimate about how old that list might be that Sam found. Though you may or may not find that reasonable. There's a good bit of disagreement on how to handle chronologies around here. :)Thank you, I would finish my reread if I wasn't so distracted by these forums. And thanks for the links, too, I'll look them over.You know I was doing a bit of math myself, this morning, and I don't think most of you sleep (I look at your timestamps sometimes :)). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 ... we still have one Archmaster left on the Isle of Ravens: Walgrave, Archmaester of Ravenry and the black iron link... secret skinchanger, and breeder of white ravens for the Citadel. He looks senile - and he's older than anyone realizes - but we know from Varamyr's prologue that spending too much time warging birds tends to leave you "moony." ... Father of Walys. Mark my words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Dragons Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 The MMD connection is literally far-fetched ;) but I think it'd be awesome writing if he was the experimentor that cut Varys.This might be tinfoil hat worthy, but my friend and I noticed that when Varys is killing Pycelle I meant Kevan, sorry, his voice gets deeper, so maybe he's not really a eunuch. ETA- I went back to the ADWD epilogue, forgot Pycelle died too (I spoiled my reread), but when Kevan first hears Varys' voice, he calls it half familiar, and then it says the Eunuch's voice seemed deeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Just another thought on the idea of Lyanna as a May Queen, and what role Rhaegar and Howland may have played. The image of Rhaegar giving Lyanna the crown of roses with his lance (was this in the books or just an image in the Worldbook?) in addition to the phallic imagery (or perhaps because of the phallic imagery) also resembles the Maypole, with the Lance as the pole and the crown of roses as the ring of flowers atop the pole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Just another thought on the idea of Lyanna as a May Queen, and what role Rhaegar and Howland may have played. The image of Rhaegar giving Lyanna the crown of roses with his lance (was this in the books or just an image in the Worldbook?) It can't be in the books, because none of my books are covered in barf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion06 Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Here's the thing. I have a hard time with Lyanna accepting a polygamous marriage, too, but we do have precedent for it south of the wall with the Targs. I think at least 2 of them married all their sisters, not just one. If Rhaegar is trying to fulfill this prophecy, he could conceivably follow his ancestors' ancient custom. Especially as he's portrayed as an intellectual, I'm sure he read the histories. The thing is, polygamy seems to have completely disappeared from use by the Targs after Maegor. It's likely that once a peace was reached with the faith, polygamy was no longer recognized as a legal institution. I mean, if Targaryens were allowed polygamy, then why didn't Daemon Targaryen ever think to use it instead of having so many arguments with Viserys over annulling his first marriage? Aerys could have used it too, when Rhaella was having stillbirth after stillbirth. And I'm sure Aegon IV would have loved the idea of multiple wives, especially when he started growing suspicious of Daeron II. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 This might be tinfoil hat worthy, but my friend and I noticed that when Varys is killing Pycelle I meant Kevan, sorry, his voice gets deeper, so maybe he's not really a eunuch. ETA- I went back to the ADWD epilogue, forgot Pycelle died too (I spoiled my reread), but when Kevan first hears Varys' voice, he calls it half familiar, and then it says the Eunuch's voice seemed deeper. Ah well, there is a theory in these here parts that Varys wasn't disguising himself as Rugen, but that Rugen was disguising himself as Varys, hence the powdered skin and perfumes to keep people well away from his stubbly chin, and that as a faceless man he facilitated Syrio Forel's release as Jaqen H'gar - amongst other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 It can't be in the books, because none of my books are covered in barf. Then whatever you do don't look at this http://40.media.tumblr.com/39671f1b8915a087404b797004e13aac/tumblr_neb67rCP8F1r2xrqzo1_1280.png Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 The thing is, polygamy seems to have completely disappeared from use by the Targs after Maegor. It's likely that once a peace was reached with the faith, polygamy was no longer recognized as a legal institution. I mean, if Targaryens were allowed polygamy, then why didn't Daemon Targaryen ever think to use it instead of having so many arguments with Viserys over annulling his first marriage? Aerys could have used it too, when Rhaella was having stillbirth after stillbirth. And I'm sure Aegon IV would have loved the idea of multiple wives, especially when he started growing suspicious of Daeron II. I'm sure that if Rhaegar really was the fruitcake he was portrayed as before the World Book revealed just how deeply political he really was, then he might have been able to convince himself that polygamy was the way forward. The problem is that he also has to convince Lyanna Stark that its a good idea and he has to convince Messrs Hightower, Dayne, Whent and the Gods know who else, that its a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Father of Walys. Mark my words. Undoubtedly. There are enough hints and suggestions surrounding Walgrave to make it clear that he's quite relevant to the larger picture. He was the lover of a Hightower daughter, the father of the maester blamed for Lord Rickard's "southron ambitions," and the breeder of those unusually large, unusually intelligent white ravens used by the Citadel to herald the change of seasons. He is a skinchanger, hypothetically the control center and information hub of the Westeros Raven Network, and possibly as old as Bloodraven. To top things off, he's got a gauntlet under his bed that once belonged to a prince, and a lock of someone's yellow hair. Mysteries abound with this guy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Haha considering how utterly vague my theory is, feel free to disagree I dunno. I just have a feeling there's more to the FM than assassination, and I think whatever it is they're after in the Citadel is something bigger than just another hit. I'm with you. That was quick huh? LOL I totally forgot about the key... I'm wondering if winter really as come after all or if that was a trick from Jaqen. Seems like Walgrave's key would be needed to send white ravens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 From what Luuwin had said there are a few and most often their devotion is seen as foolhardy.Yeah it being specifically Walgrave's Key that got my attention,he isn't the only Archmaester to my knowledge at the Citadel (is there one more?) so is there another key?But that it should be Walgrave's is peculiar,but given what we know of the man it could be by design because as you say he was the Keeper of the White Ravens and the man is older than Father Time.I think Winter has come given the signs in the external world,but i think there's something to the points you brought up. Yes it is so obvious....The spawn of the Mayqueen and He-who- Cannot- Be -Named ( because we are still trying to figure that out) will rise harder and stronger. Yeah, there's more than just a hit going on. Can't believe I forgot about that key. I'm with you on the signs pointing to Winter, but it seems strange Jaqen arrives at the Citadel, then the white ravens take wing. Something's afoot. As to the last, that one got me :lol: Are you saying Jon's member will rival Tormund's for supremacy in the North??? Because that is some heresy :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 To JNR, yep, it's in the Worldbook: And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy.So in addition to our May Queen (Lyanna), our Green Man (Howland) we have our Maypole, Rhaegar's lance and crown of roses. And btw, as wolfmaid may be able to further enlighten us, all of this is also celebrated on Beltane, a pagan fire ritual. Just as an added giggle, speaking of May queens and crowns of flowers, one of the most famous passengers on the Mayflower (you know the ship that brought the pilgrims to Caster errr Plymouth Rock) was John Howland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 It's come up before in Heresy, and it makes for an interesting discussion. Because as you say, the two "magic" maesteries look like they may have been marginalized... cubby-holed off on the Isle of Ravens, an old forsaken building on the backside of campus, as it were. Gotta say, you see this all the time in academia. It wasn't so long ago the "climate change" guys were marginalized and laughed at. Now, their models seem quite accurate. Stem cell research, Galileo and the Inquisition... Yet there's certainly something puzzling and contradictory about the relationship between the Citadel and magic. The Citadel was founded, and is still patronized, by House Hightower. And at the end of AFFC, we're told that "Lord Leyton's locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells..." while the ironmen raid the coasts, and Oldtown itself is practically under siege. So how do we reconcile the idea of an anti-magic Citadel with the fact that its political and financial backer consults with the old powers? And more broadly... why would the Citadel keep Walgrave and Marwyn around at all, with their magical interests, if part of its mission was to snuff that stuff out? I think the Citadel has always sought to acquire other powers, secularize them, and market them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Undoubtedly. There are enough hints and suggestions surrounding Walgrave to make it clear that he's quite relevant to the larger picture. He was the lover of a Hightower daughter, the father of the maester blamed for Lord Rickard's "southron ambitions," and the breeder of those unusually large, unusually intelligent white ravens used by the Citadel to herald the change of seasons. He is a skinchanger, hypothetically the control center and information hub of the Westeros Raven Network, and possibly as old as Bloodraven. To top things off, he's got a gauntlet under his bed that once belonged to a prince, and a lock of someone's yellow hair. Mysteries abound with this guy... Voila. Added crackpot, just because... why not?: The Hooded Man is Walys, I've been saying it for years simply because I believe it's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Gotta say, you see this all the time in academia. It wasn't so long ago the "climate change" guys were marginalized and laughed at. Now, their models seem quite accurate. Stem cell research, Galileo and the Inquisition... I think the Citadel has always sought to acquire other powers, secularize them, and market them. via placing Walys at Winterfell..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Yeah, there's more than just a hit going on. Can't believe I forgot about that key. I'm with you on the signs pointing to Winter, but it seems strange Jaqen arrives at the Citadel, then the white ravens take wing. Something's afoot. As to the last, that one got me :lol:Are you saying Jon's member will rival Tormund's for supremacy in the North??? Because that is some heresy :DYeah i'm with you it seems to coincidental.We could look at it as because Winter is here there was a play for the citadel. And it could maybe have something to do with Walgrave's work in the hands of the Face less men?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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