Heresy 159

[JNR]

Are you saying Jon's member will rival Tormund's for supremacy in the North??? Because that is some heresy :D

Well, it's not a certainty that Tormund's member is supreme, because we know that Tormund's member is only half as long as it was before bitten off by a bear... and yet it is thrice the size of Mance's (though apparently not "as long and thick" as his, Tormund's, arm). All three statements come straight from Tormund.

That would still put it well into the Guinness book, I would think.

Of course, GRRM has cautioned the fans from attempting precise calculations of member volume, length, and mass on many occasions, and he refuses to include specific measurements of members for exactly this reason, to stop fans from doing this.

Along similar lines, I believe there are several different women who are said to have the "biggest teats X had ever seen," where X is some character or other. Which of these women has the supreme teats remains a Balrog-like matter of doubt and debate.

[wolfmaid7]

To JNR, yep, it's in the Worldbook:

So in addition to our May Queen (Lyanna), our Green Man (Howland) we have our Maypole, Rhaegar's lance and crown of roses. And btw, as wolfmaid may be able to further enlighten us, all of this is also celebrated on Beltane, a pagan fire ritual.

Just as an added giggle, speaking of May queens and crowns of flowers, one of the most famous passengers on the Mayflower (you know the ship that brought the pilgrims to Caster errr Plymouth Rock) was John Howland.

Yep it is a Beltane ritual.Usually after the Maypole Dance couples who want their relationship blessed or someone seeking help in the love department would jump over a fire.

In the olden days , not so old because it still happens on Beltane though the may queen and Green man did not know eachother they would be masked. He'd have to do a hunt make a sacrifice then come to her and they'd mate.

I forgot to mention there would only be one May Queen and multiple green men who ever killed a stag first would

Have the honor of bedding her.

[JNR]

To JNR, yep, it's in the Worldbook:

Ugh. Bleh.

That lance, btw, looks to be about twice as long as a tourney lance is supposed to be. There's no way any knight could wield it in a joust, accurately aiming the point, while riding and gripping it from that far back.

I'm tempted to take the impossibly long lance as a subtle clue that the story is not to be believed literally, but I imagine it's just an artist who didn't really think it through.

[JNR]

Gotta say, you see this all the time in academia. It wasn't so long ago the "climate change" guys were marginalized and laughed at. Now, their models seem quite accurate. Stem cell research, Galileo and the Inquisition...

For about half a century, until around the time GRRM was reading Marvel comics, the theory of continental drift was seen as absurd. Then it was retitled plate tectonics and put on a sounder geological footing and now it's by far the dominant belief.

[Black Crow]

From what Luuwin had said there are a few and most often their devotion is seen as foolhardy.Yeah it being specifically Walgrave's Key that got my attention,he isn't the only Archmaester to my knowledge at the Citadel (is there one more?) so is there another key?But that it should be Walgrave's is peculiar,but given what we know of the man it could be by design because as you say he was the Keeper of the White Ravens and the man is older than Father Time.

It's not necessarily Maester Walgrave's key, or rather its not unique to him. The impression I had was that one of the perks of being an archmaester was that you were given access to the club, and as Israel Hands would tell you, the wines and the pickles. I think Walgrave was targeted not because his key was special but simply because it was the easiest one to steal.

[wolfmaid7]

It's not necessarily Maester Walgrave's key, or rather its not unique to him. The impression I had was that one of the perks of being an archmaester was that you were given access to the club, and as Israel Hands would tell you, the wines and the pickles. I think Walgrave was targeted not because his key was special but simply because it was the easiest one to steal.

I can see that, it was my initial thought that he was targeted because he was said to be senile, thus an easy mark. Sometimes the most obvious is the answer.

[Armstark]

Depends. Luwin identifies the Valyrian steel link in connection with "higher mysteries," and offers some bah humbug discussion of it. And Marwyn is clearly the Archmaester associated with that particular link in the chain. When we meet him he goes on about Valyrian magic, fire and blood, glass candles, etc., yadda yadda... then runs out the door to hop a ship east to Essos. A place he's been before, where he's acquired some learning.

I always found it somewhat odd that when Marwyn and the Slayer meet all they discuss is dragons and associated magic. Sam just brought the big news of the Others while they did know about the dragons way before and yet Marwyn doesn't make one single comment on them.

It's come up before in Heresy, and it makes for an interesting discussion. Because as you say, the two "magic" maesteries look like they may have been marginalized... cubby-holed off on the Isle of Ravens, an old forsaken building on the backside of campus, as it were.

Yet there's certainly something puzzling and contradictory about the relationship between the Citadel and magic. The Citadel was founded, and is still patronized, by House Hightower. And at the end of AFFC, we're told that "Lord Leyton's locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells..." while the ironmen raid the coasts, and Oldtown itself is practically under siege. So how do we reconcile the idea of an anti-magic Citadel with the fact that its political and financial backer consults with the old powers? And more broadly... why would the Citadel keep Walgrave and Marwyn around at all, with their magical interests, if part of its mission was to snuff that stuff out?

I think the Citadel is conflicted regarding magic. They obviously have a long tradition of studying it and the initiation ritual with the glass candle but on the other hand the ruling class seems to be inclined against magic and likely has been for a long time. But they can't get totally rid of the 'magical wing' in the Citadel because of traditions and customs. Imagine the scandal when they would abolish the office of the Archmaester of the higher mysteries as the composition of the conclave likely has been the same for thousands of years. So instead the 'grey sheep' do their best to marginalize the 'magical wing'.

Regarding the Hightowers I am unsure what they are up to but if you believe Marwyn's statement that the grey sheep were behind the demise of the dragons there can be no doubt that the Hightowers were co conspirators in that endeavor as they feature prominently in the Dance.

After reading the relevant WB passages and P&Q with Marwyn's statement in mind I really have little doubt left that Marwyn is correct. The whole Dance seems carefully orchestrated and Maesters played some key roles at critical points and every time it lead to more dragons dying. Even the cause of the war seems fabricated because Rhaenyra had several full-blooded brothers who conveniently died in the cradle.

Regarding the destruction of all records of the NK: If the record keeping at that time consisted of weirwoods maybe it was them that were cut down and burned. There are no Heart Trees on the Wall (except that new one nobody knows about). And you would have to place the NK's bones somewhere safe were his memories can't enter the whole weirwood.net ...

[Armstark]

Regarding the destruction of all records of the NK: If the record keeping at that time consisted of weirwoods maybe it was them that were cut down and burned. There are no Heart Trees on the Wall (except that new one nobody knows about). And you would have to place the NK's bones somewhere safe were his memories can't enter the whole weirwood.net ...

It seems i am guilty of creating a hanging participle so let me expand on that:

If the NK was a Stark his natural resting place would be the crypts of Winterfell so to erase all memories of him the Winterfell Heart Tree gets some kind of magical protection against access of its roots from anywhere else. That is the Stark's privilege and burden: they have access to that dangerous knowledge but must also protect it against the rest of the world thus there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

[Mother of Dragons]

The thing is, polygamy seems to have completely disappeared from use by the Targs after Maegor. It's likely that once a peace was reached with the faith, polygamy was no longer recognized as a legal institution.

I mean, if Targaryens were allowed polygamy, then why didn't Daemon Targaryen ever think to use it instead of having so many arguments with Viserys over annulling his first marriage? Aerys could have used it too, when Rhaella was having stillbirth after stillbirth. And I'm sure Aegon IV would have loved the idea of multiple wives, especially when he started growing suspicious of Daeron II.

Good points; like I said earlier, I'm trying to reread, but my ADD keeps looping me here every 5 minutes when a mystery comes up.

I'll need to employ self discipline when WoW comes out, because I'm a slow reader.

[The Reckoner]

I really hate it when the book ruins a fantastic blurb. Absolutely.

[Joe Pine]

Interesting points on Walys.

I had assumed him dead, for Luwin became the Maester to Winterfell. I hadn't connected the dots on how he died or where though, just that it happened between the rebellion starting and the return of Ned to Winterfell with Jon after the rebellion.

[JNR]

I'm tempted to take the impossibly long lance as a subtle clue that the story is not to be believed literally, but I imagine it's just an artist who didn't really think it through.

Figured this out.

What happened was that Rhaegar jousted with a normal, twelve-foot tourney lance... but then after he won the tourney and got a good look at Lyanna, it grew and thus became twenty-five feet long.

[Mother of Dragons]

Ugh. Bleh.

That lance, btw, looks to be about twice as long as a tourney lance is supposed to be. There's no way any knight could wield it in a joust, accurately aiming the point, while riding and gripping it from that far back.

I'm tempted to take the impossibly long lance as a subtle clue that the story is not to be believed literally, but I imagine it's just an artist who didn't really think it through.

That lance is a clue to the answer of your explanation about the rivaling members of Jon Snow & Tormund.

ETA: I didn't notice you already figured out Rhaegar won the contest.

[redrose]

As for the old houses, House Dayne and House Hightower was the reason that I edited my initial post. Which is why I find it interesting that two of the three Kingsguards were from those Houses. I still think that Rhaegar and his bachelor friends had something going on that was greater than Rhaegar's interest in House Targaryen.

I like this line of thinking as it ties in some of the information we are obviously missing. We are yet to get a decent look at house Dayne and I believe GRRM is on record as saying we will find out more about their role in events as they unfolded and this information was purposely left out of TWOIAF as it was considered too spoilerish for the main book series.We do start to get a little taster of the Citadel in AFFC but we still don't know what role the Hightowers played leading up to RR except we have walgrave and his son winterfells maester walys pushing Southron ambitions on Rickard Stark.

As two of the oldest houses in Westeros I can't help but tie them to the original pact on the isle of faces which is again another place that we know next to nothing about at the moment but will be given more information on in the coming books.

[redrose]

Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

[...]

Night’s King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule.[/

The nights king ruled for 13 years as the 13th lord commander of the nights watch. Whether the number 13 is significant asides from being an unlucky number in the real world I can't help thinking that Bloodraven being The Lord commander of the nights watch for 13 years will be significant.

[Urrax2]

... as Israel Hands would tell you, the wines and the pickles. ,,,

LOL. But he came to a bad end.

[redrose]

It's come up before in Heresy, and it makes for an interesting discussion. Because as you say, the two "magic" maesteries look like they may have been marginalized... cubby-holed off on the Isle of Ravens, an old forsaken building on the backside of campus, as it were.

Yet there's certainly something puzzling and contradictory about the relationship between the Citadel and magic. The Citadel was founded, and is still patronized, by House Hightower. And at the end of AFFC, we're told that "Lord Leyton's locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells..." while the ironmen raid the coasts, and Oldtown itself is practically under siege. So how do we reconcile the idea of an anti-magic Citadel with the fact that its political and financial backer consults with the old powers? And more broadly... why would the Citadel keep Walgrave and Marwyn around at all, with their magical interests, if part of its mission was to snuff that stuff out?

I believe there is enough wiggle room in the story to allow for a theory where upon Gerold Hightower after finding Rhaeger and hearing all his prophetic ramblings could have returned to his house of origin to confer with the mad maid and Leyton Hightower to check the validity of such prophetic ramblings. This of course ignores the political implications of the story but nevertheless is a plausible theory in my mind. It would however downgrade the ToJ to a mere meeting place or rendezvous with his fellow KG.

[Voice]

Well, it's not a certainty that Tormund's member is supreme, because we know that Tormund's member is only half as long as it was before bitten off by a bear... and yet it is thrice the size of Mance's (though apparently not "as long and thick" as his, Tormund's, arm). All three statements come straight from Tormund.

That would still put it well into the Guinness book, I would think.

Of course, GRRM has cautioned the fans from attempting precise calculations of member volume, length, and mass on many occasions, and he refuses to include specific measurements of members for exactly this reason, to stop fans from doing this.

Along similar lines, I believe there are several different women who are said to have the "biggest teats X had ever seen," where X is some character or other. Which of these women has the supreme teats remains a Balrog-like matter of doubt and debate.

A discussion of such girth and magnitude, such as this, deserves its own thread methinks...

[Voice]

The nights king ruled for 13 years as the 13th lord commander of the nights watch. Whether the number 13 is significant asides from being an unlucky number in the real world I can't help thinking that Bloodraven being The Lord commander of the nights watch for 13 years will be significant.

Sure. I think it is another parallel. Bloodraven was LC for 13 years, then made his way to a heart tree. Night's King was LC for 13 years, then made his way to the heart of winter.

[Mother of Dragons]

A discussion of such girth and magnitude, such as this, deserves its own thread methinks...

Maybe I'd get my first warning point! I'm beginning to notice that topics like MJ & Tormund's Member seem to occur once Black Crow goes to retire for the evening.