Phillip Frye Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.” [...] Night’s King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. I wonder if we take this quote too seriously. Old Nan does say "mayhaps" repeatedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 The impression that I got from the AFFC blurb is that the connection with "Starfell" was with Daenerys, not Jon Snow. Apparently, Barristan is going to draw Daenerys' attention to Starfall, where she will learn something important, probably about fAegon. I don't see the publisher's blurb working to establish A+L=J, or even R+L=J for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Speaking for myself, I don't find it unusual for Robert to order the monomaniacal fruitcake burned. It would have been a convenient way to dispose of a rival. It seems like you have to have some type of formal charge to hand out the spikes, heads, walls treatment. Being part-Targaryen, Robert would have known about their penchant for cremation. In fact, Orys Baratheon may have been cremated for all that we know. The other alternative would have been to bury him face-down to ensure that he doesn't come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 And interesting about Ran's comment. I only recently found out about the Heresy threads after someone discussed them in RLJ as being more welcoming for going against the grain (which those who frequent would know that I've been campaigning against RLJ for months). That was probably me or King Tyrion. The faith militant were extra mean for a few weeks there (mayhaps still are?) and we brought a lot of new recruits over here to the darkside, simply by saying, "yeah, this would be fine to talk about over here <link>." We went from threads lasting a few weeks to threads lasting a few days pretty quickly.Great to have new ideas and new minds to throw at this stuff. That is when this thread is at its strongest. But I've found Heresy to be the most interesting thread on the board, and the one that's given me the most insights into the story. This is the thread that I find truly looks deeper into things. I don't agree with everything discussed in the Heresy threads that I've been involved in, but I certainly find that I get a deeper reading of the novels from here than I do if I just frequent the General section. People are willing to entertain other theories and contribute to them whether they agree with them or not. It's not that every theory is right on here. It's that every theory is deeply examined. Which is what discussion should be. Damn straight :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 ... I only recently found out about the Heresy threads after someone discussed them in RLJ as being more welcoming for going against the grain (which those who frequent would know that I've been campaigning against RLJ for months). But I've found Heresy to be the most interesting thread on the board, and the one that's given me the most insights into the story. This is the thread that I find truly looks deeper into things. I don't agree with everything discussed in the Heresy threads that I've been involved in, but I certainly find that I get a deeper reading of the novels from here than I do if I just frequent the General section. People are willing to entertain other theories and contribute to them whether they agree with them or not. It's not that every theory is right on here. It's that every theory is deeply examined. Which is what discussion should be.:cheers: And my apologies, markg - I should have said something to you much earlier about trying Heresy. As I recall, you and I spent some time together over in RLJ for a month or two, representing different aspects of "the opposition." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyinblack Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 At least Arthur doesn't require some convoluted polygamous marriage that no religion in Westeros would have sanctioned.You tell em....I have never been comfortable w that mess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I wonder if we take this quote too seriously. Old Nan does say "mayhaps" repeatedly. She does say that a lot, and to great dramatic effect. It's a storytelling device. Note she does not say "mayhaps" or "some say" when she says: "He never was [a Bolton, a Magnar out of Skagos, an Umber, Flint, Norrey, or a Woodfoot]." "He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” “He was a Stark of Winterfell." And though Bran employs quotative voice in the following passage, Old Nan's words are not ambiguous: Night’s King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. In the entire passage, there are only two things Old Nan isn't sure about: his first name and which bed he slept in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 When Sam has that brief encounter with Marwyn at the Citadel there's a glass candle burning in the corner. Factor in both Quaithe's interest in Danaerys the Dragonlord and the assumed use of glass candles to project herself into places she isn't and Marwyn's eagerness to go to said Dragonlord - with a certain hurried air of having just received a message/summons and we have a couple of options to consider; either Marwyn is all for dragons and wants to get in on the act, or he is quite the reverse. The way I'm thinking you see is that GRRM likes his different layers and it might be too simplistic to see this simply as a straightforward conflict between Ice and Fire with the blue-eyed lot in one corner and the red lot in the other. We've talked before about magic as a power which can be drawn upon in different ways and of course there's that business of it being a sword without a hilt. Keeping it simple is it possible that for whatever reason the power of magic is increasing but while at one level various practitioners or would-be practitioners are trying to exploit that under the various banners of Ice and Fire, while on another, perhaps higher, level other practitioners are trying to limit the damage. Always you are sleeping when I catch up. So you see Marwyn as a lot like Mel, taking advantage wherever possible? I can see that. Unfortunately at this moment in time I have no real opinion as to what Marwyn might be up to (ie for or against Dany). Quaithe. . . I have a similar problem with her. Thanks. This leaves me optimistic. Possibly only 9 months til the Bearded Glacier's Rantings and Ravings of Hodor and His Member. :laugh: Write like the wind! I think this is one of those instances that highlights Dany's ignorance of events but moreso how much things via Viserys and her own danm mind how she romanticizes events.Everything that she has ever known came from the mouth of a brother who himself was also a child but a child whose paranoid father isolated him for fear that there were people trying to kill him.So much of what he told her has to looked upon with skepticism.Plus even in Dany's language the way she relays things i.e "The midnight flight to Dragonstone" which contradicts Jamie statement that "that he last saw the Queen the morning she fled to Dragonstone". . . . Dany is pretty clear with herself from the get-go that she doesn't remember the Westeros she remembers. "[viserys] ''You do not steal from the dragon, oh, no. The dragon remembers.' And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not. She had never seen this lande her brother said was theirs, this realm beyond the narrow sea. These places he talked of, Casterly Rock and the Eyrie, Highgarden and the Vale of Arryn, Dorne and the Isle of Faces, they were just words to her. . . . Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling for the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident, and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before he eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword. . . (AGOT, Dany, 30). So. Interesting also that what Dany recalls are "just words to her." Also, wonder why the Isle of Faces is thrown in there? Know who it reminds me of? Jon and his list of places that he wishes he could visit, and then decides to join the NW and go north. Oh, that is... so appalling and unexpected and yet logical, I wouldn't be surprised if you're right. (GRRM loves appalling and unexpected and yet logical.) ETA: Although I'm not sure how Rhaegar's corpse could get there in time. But I agree it wouldn't likely be cremated by enemies of the Targs. Just a lot of completely agree, all around. Hmm, yeah, spoilers are one of those areas where things get awkward. It might be interesting if a dedicated Heresy site were set up with no mods and a default spoiler policy of Anything Goes. Meaning, anybody reading this site is assumed to be in a spoilers-yay! frame of mind, and nobody posting needs to worry about tagging or hiding any text for any reason. Since Ran is on record declaring Heresy the thread he finds most annoying, I doubt there'd be any objection from that quarter. Why does this fill my heart with such delight? I generally have nothing against Ran. . . and yet. . . This is an interesting idea, though. How often do we need a mod around here? I mean even in adversity, we seem to manage to keep our shit together for the most part. Is that down to a mod swooping in? Doesn't seem that way to me. . . . .And interesting about Ran's comment. I only recently found out about the Heresy threads after someone discussed them in RLJ as being more welcoming for going against the grain (which those who frequent would know that I've been campaigning against RLJ for months). But I've found Heresy to be the most interesting thread on the board, and the one that's given me the most insights into the story. This is the thread that I find truly looks deeper into things. I don't agree with everything discussed in the Heresy threads that I've been involved in, but I certainly find that I get a deeper reading of the novels from here than I do if I just frequent the General section. People are willing to entertain other theories and contribute to them whether they agree with them or not. It's not that every theory is right on here. It's that every theory is deeply examined. Which is what discussion should be. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Makes little difference once Bran is wed to the trees imo. He's the GS now.I know I'm a day behind but :agree: Bran's blood makes him a greenseer. Maybe he was picked early in life with his accident forcing the situation, but he is who he should be. As long as he chooses to carry on he will be a greenseer. I mean, if the singing folk were looking for a bad mofo to take up the cause then why not pick Varamyr or Euron even? Because they were lacking something. Something that Bran has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 The impression that I got from the AFFC blurb is that the connection with "Starfell" was with Daenerys, not Jon Snow. Apparently, Barristan is going to draw Daenerys' attention to Starfall, where she will learn something important, probably about fAegon. I don't see the publisher's blurb working to establish A+L=J, or even R+L=J for that matter. :agree: That's basically what I was suggesting. Back in the day the synopsis didn't at first appear to be accurate because a lot of the stuff didn't happen, but in fact with hindsight we can see it as an accurate synopsis for AFFC and ADwD combined. The business of Starfall is the only thing that hasn't happened but in the context Aegon is the most likely answer - and it strongly suggests that he's real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 And interesting about Ran's comment. I only recently found out about the Heresy threads after someone discussed them in RLJ as being more welcoming for going against the grain (which those who frequent would know that I've been campaigning against RLJ for months). But I've found Heresy to be the most interesting thread on the board, and the one that's given me the most insights into the story. This is the thread that I find truly looks deeper into things. I don't agree with everything discussed in the Heresy threads that I've been involved in, but I certainly find that I get a deeper reading of the novels from here than I do if I just frequent the General section. People are willing to entertain other theories and contribute to them whether they agree with them or not. It's not that every theory is right on here. It's that every theory is deeply examined. Which is what discussion should be. This, as I said a couple of threads ago is exactly how I see Heresy myself and the reason why we're so seldom visited by the Mods is down to the local house rules: All that we ask in heresy is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 Always you are sleeping when I catch up. So you see Marwyn as a lot like Mel, taking advantage wherever possible? I can see that. Unfortunately at this moment in time I have no real opinion as to what Marwyn might be up to (ie for or against Dany). Quaithe. . . I have a similar problem with her. The problem I've got with both is that they barely figure in the story and we really know nothing about them and yet they seem to know far more than they should do and appear to be communicating by radio seemingly to try and keep the dragons under control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 I mean, if the singing folk were looking for a bad mofo to take up the cause then why not pick Varamyr or Euron even? Because they were lacking something. Something that Bran has. The "something" I would say is his vulnerability. He's been drawn north by the Crow because he thought he would be able to walk again; he's been drawn up by the devil to see the world and been offered dominion over it, and he's young enough to be manipulated into believing that the darkness is good. As has been suggested before there are close parallels with Arya and the House of Black and White and I'd say the real question is going to revolve around identity. Arya, we've seen, is hanging on the Needle and remembering that she is still Arya Stark of Winterfell. Is Bran doing the same? Does his invasion of Hodor truly represent his descent into darkess, or the reverse and a determination to explore for himself that shows he is still Brandon Stark on the roof of Winterfell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 The problem I've got with both is that they barely figure in the story and we really know nothing about them and yet they seem to know far more than they should do and appear to be communicating by radio seemingly to try and keep the dragons under control It's hard to decide about this Seems like you think they are trying to divert her in order to keep the dragons out of Westeros? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 It's hard to decide about this Seems like you think they are trying to divert her in order to keep the dragons out of Westeros? The problem is that we know so little about either but Quaithe's interventions all appear to be aimed at warning her off people with their own agendas. Whether this is intended to keep her out of Westeros and send her in a different direction entirely - or the reverse - remains to be seen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I know I'm a day behind but :agree: Bran's blood makes him a greenseer. Maybe he was picked early in life with his accident forcing the situation, but he is who he should be. As long as he chooses to carry on he will be a greenseer. I mean, if the singing folk were looking for a bad mofo to take up the cause then why not pick Varamyr or Euron even? Because they were lacking something. Something that Bran has. That, is a great way to look at it. And honestly, I wasn't looking at it that way. I didn't really see Bran as bringing anything to the table. It seems like his youth alone would be something useful, like these threads need new minds for old questions, so too does the weirnet need Bran's childlike sense of wonder? His desire to climb higher? Who can say, but I think you are right. I've always admired Bran, and enjoyed his chapters, but I've pitied him more than respected him. When it comes down to it, the kid is truly brave, and regularly faces fears that would drive others mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Or maybe he's just evil :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 In the linked AMA, Ran's dismissal of mythology influencing GRRM is kind of funny, considering our dear Turtle was a comic book and sci-fi/fantasy nerd. Even people who don't read comics could probably name a dozen mythological figures/stories that became Marvel or DC characters. Saying "George doesn't really work that way" is a headscratcher since the influence is clear. “I wrote a letter to Marvel [when I was a kid] in praise of ‘The Avengers #9’ issue that introduced Wonder Man. He comes along and he’s really powerful and he joins the Avengers as a new hero and he’s really a plant who’s been sent in to destroy them from within. But then when the crucial time comes he can’t bring himself do to it so he revolts against his evil masters and dies heroically in the same issue they introduced him. And I look back on it now from a distance and think ‘My God the influence over my work is enormous.’ He seems to be a hero to the outside world but he’s really a villain. But when it comes to the point where he’s supposed to murder someone he can’t bring himself to do it and he pays the ultimate price for that and dies heroically. And I’ve been stealing from that every since.” “Maybe Stan Lee is the greatest literary influence on me, even more than Shakespeare or Tolkien." Stan Lee created versions of Thor, Loki, Odin, Athena, Hercules, Mephistopheles, Cyclops, Perseus - the list goes on and on. I suspect Ran was talking about some of the more obscure mythologies that pop up occasionally? Also, funny thing about Wonder Man in addition to the above quote by George. Wonder Man (Jon) is later resurrected by the The Scarlet Witch (Mel), controlled by the Enchantress (Val), battles Goliath (Hodor) and Splice the assassin (Arya), then travels to Hades (the Heart of Winter) to fight with Blackheart (Bran) whose mentor is Mephisto (Bloodraven). Oh and then he finds out he's immortal. :) ETA: keyword "Heresy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tyrion XX Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 As I said after that post, it also would fit with Dany having a vision of Rhaegar (seemingly at the Trident) burning with fire, and then when she lifts his visor she sees that Rhaegar is her. Which has always been odd to me, but if there's a connection between Rhaegar's death and Dany's conception it would make some sense that Dany views herself as Rhaegar in AGOT. He died and she was conceived, same as Aegon V and Duncan the Small died at the same time that Rhaegar was born. But as we've said, we still need to get Rhaegar to King's Landing first to really play this out. If the rebels burned him (and I'm not really sure any of them would know that Targaryens only get cremated and thus burn him, let alone give him that honour as they were usurping him), we then need some kind of ritual that transfers Rhaegar's death to Dany's conception. Which they wouldn't know. At least Aerys would likely know this ritual as he was at Summerhall where Aegon was trying to create dragons and thus likely knows some sacrifice/blood/fire magic spells. Just seemed odd. The author had literally released the chapter on his website. It was canon and released information. There's not really any spoilers discussing this information, as the author himself spoiled it. But I spoilered it anyway in case people didn't want to see it (same as I did with the Jaqen information last thread). I mean, if TWOW had been released, and the mod chose not to read the book yet, and I posted something about the book, would I then get in trouble for not spoiler tagging it? The information was out, but the mod hadn't chosen to read it. That seems like its the mod's problem for not being up to date about the released information, not my problem for discussing released information. There is a "Still Reading" section that people are welcome to frequent if they aren't up to date. And interesting about Ran's comment. I only recently found out about the Heresy threads after someone discussed them in RLJ as being more welcoming for going against the grain (which those who frequent would know that I've been campaigning against RLJ for months). But I've found Heresy to be the most interesting thread on the board, and the one that's given me the most insights into the story. This is the thread that I find truly looks deeper into things. I don't agree with everything discussed in the Heresy threads that I've been involved in, but I certainly find that I get a deeper reading of the novels from here than I do if I just frequent the General section. People are willing to entertain other theories and contribute to them whether they agree with them or not. It's not that every theory is right on here. It's that every theory is deeply examined. Which is what discussion should be.Nice post. You will absolutely know the books better and from a better angle from reading Heresy threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 In the linked AMA, Ran's dismissal of mythology influencing GRRM is kind of funny, considering our dear Turtle was a comic book and sci-fi/fantasy nerd. Even people who don't read comics could probably name a dozen mythological figures/stories that became Marvel or DC characters. Saying "George doesn't really work that way" is a headscratcher since the influence is clear. To be fair I don't think that Ran was dismissing the mythology, although it may have come over a bit that way, but rather the extrapolation of it to figure out how this will end. As I've said before its good to figure out the ingredients but its GRRM's recipe as to how much of each goes in to the blender and what comes out of the comes out of the oven. Bloodraven and Kurtz are one and the same but there's much more to this than the Heart of Darkness, and a story which mingles it with the Mabinogion, the Tain, Ragnarok and all the other influences historical and mythological, isn't going to turn out as any one of them did simply due to the diversity of the sources. It's GRRM's story, not theirs. All of which being said it remains both educational and fun to explore them in a way which seems unique to Heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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