[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIX - The season with no reason

[Dragon_Rider]

^Not that complicated. It's simply the result of haphazardly trying to compress the story lines of 3000 pages into a 10 hour season. That much slicing and dicing requires a lot of care for the story threads to still hold together. They ended up cutting out a lot and combining many characters and accelerating the plot. Jeynsa was one of the result. Stannis's quick defeat, too.

HBO is probably pressuring the producers and creators to finish the series. The truth is the most successful HBO shows do not go beyond a 7th season for a reason--costs begin to rise faster than ratings towards the end.

[Mithras]

^Not that complicated. It's simply the result of haphazardly trying to compress the story lines of 3000 pages into a 10 hour season. That much slicing and dicing requires a lot of care for the story threads to still hold together. They ended up cutting out a lot and combining many characters and accelerating the plot. Jeynsa was one of the result. Stannis's quick defeat, too.

HBO is probably pressuring the producers and creators to finish the series. The truth is the most successful HBO shows do not go beyond a 7th season for a reason--costs begin to rise faster than ratings towards the end.

Yet Balon is still alive along with Kevan and Pycelle. I think the determining factor is that D&D decided to not have the Second Dance of Dragons and most of the changes they made stem from this decision. With no Second Dance, they have to stretch the things at KL. The ironborn will not be a part of the Second Dance IMO. They are simply catalysts to set the scene for the Second Dance. In the show, I think D&D will use ironborn as the filler antagonist to Lannister/Tyrells until Dany comes to Westeros.

[RedViperHD]

Yep.

I am not one who says that the show should follow the books at all.

I do find it interesting when D&D go a different route than the books because I feel like it gives me a snap shot into their minds. Obviously, Sansa's at Winterfell this season was a major departure from the books. So, was it necessary? What was the point of bringing her to Winterfell? What did it add to her character and what did it add to the story? Well, the Season is over now and we can all assess and now that it's over, the verdict is in:

Sansa at Winterfell meant nothing. It added or subtracted nothing to her character or the plot. Sansa was only at Winterfell so D&D could grab some headlines with a controversial scene by having her get raped every night she was there. It was poor writing and really immature. Maybe that impresses the 10 year olds that watch the show. What was the story's purpose of having Sansa in Winterfell? Some might say that she needed to be there in order to have her learn about Bran and Rickon. Ok, I'll buy that. But now tell me why did she need to get raped every night she was there? What was that building on or towards?

Lets trace the character arc for Sansa from the end of Season 4 to the end of Season 5.

She ends Season 4 walking down a staircase dressed in black. A symbol that she is now a new and colder and more cunning character. End Season 4.

Start Season 5: Sansa is right back to being the tortured and crying damsel in distress before she walked down that staircase dressed in black. She cries. She allows someone to send her to a place where she knows torture awaits. She goes, almost willingly, to that place. She is tortured and raped every night. She cries some more before she escapse. End Season 5.

No Arc, No Development. Just cheap shock value.

Newsflash: We've seen Sansa tortured for 4 seasons before this. We've seen her father beheaded in front of her and her mom and brother killed at dinner, she believes her other siblings have either been killed by Meryn Trant or burned alive by her step brother, we've seen Joffery torture her, we've seen Cersei mentally abuse her which includes killing her pets, we've seen Littlefinger use and abuse her. So what did having Ramsay rape her every night add to her plight? What, we didn't feel sorry for her enough before? Her character gained nothing from this and lost nothing from this. It's just a continuation of a steady decline. Watching the story of Sansa started to feel less like watching quality programming this season than it did like watching a gang rape take place on the screen. In fact, it's worse because if you some how are watching a gang rape take place then chances are you're also NOT being asked to be entertained by it, being asked to give it accolades, and being asked to keep watching it for another season. It was trash, all trashy and cheap shock value.

Not only did Sansa at Winterfell not add or subtract anything from Sansa's character but it also added or subtracted nothing from Ramsay's character. Let's trace his arc. Well, we can't because there isn't one. He was a psychopath who liked to murder and rape at the beginning of his character and seasons later, he is the exact same character. No arc, no development, still just torturing and raping everything. Raping Sansa was just more of the same for Ramsay.

I had hope for Sansa and her story but now I do not. D&D said in their post show interview last night that Stannis did the worst thing be sacrificing his daughter for the Iron Throne. Well, in a lot of ways, D&D have done the same thing. They've sacrificed the arc and development their main character (in many ways, the show's daughter) for the sake of temporarily grabbing headlines and getting ratings. You know what else? It didn't pay off.

[Woman of War]

I did not know Myrcella was beloved. That is new to me

Well, she was beloved by me.

Martin has presented her as very intelligent girl who outwits her young fiancé at cyvasse. Given the cyvasse symbolism in the books she is constructed as a potential strategist, apart from being simply a nice girl. So we could have rooted for her to end in a position of power, not due to her name but due to intelligence, to merit.

Unfortunately this got lost in the show, no cyvasse allegory, (not for her not those wonderful scenes during Tyrion's boat trip). In the show Myrcella is a nice and normal teenager in love who comes over as warm hearted and caring right before she may be dead. If she is dead now she has been no more than a story tool.

[Woman of War]

Also, to be entirely fair to Sansa, when Tyrion languished in prison in Season 4, required the assistance of Jaime and Oberyn, did nothing when his death sentence was pronounced except wait to be executed, and had to be rescued by Jaime, I don't recall anyone denouncing him as a helpless damsel for not trying to engineer his own escape from prison, relying on the assistance and generosity of others (JAime and Oberyn), and needing to be rescued from imprisonment. At least Sansa picked her own lock.

LOL :agree:

[Woman of War]

Less. Ten days, most likely. Otherwise, Sansa's scenes with Theon make no sense. We know Episode seven was their first interaction after the wedding, most likely two or three days. Theon betrays her and the next day - Episode 8 - She confronts him. That same night - Episode 9 - Ramsay burns Stannis supplies and the next day, Stannis burns Shireen. Then, in what appears to be a day later, Stannis marches on Winterfell - Episode 10.

Six days at least, ten days at most.

I disagree.

A grown woman who knows about her body would know how to read the signs after ten days. A young girl who has been through so much and has no medical knowledge might not even realize that her period is missing or she would put any physical discomfort or nausea on her dire situation. It is quite likely that Sansa, like so many pregnant teenagers, only gets aware of her situation when she is three months into her pregnancy, at a time when the amount of moon tea needed might turn into serious poisoning. If she knows where to get any. Would there be a competent midwife around to do a "mechanical" abortion?

And women have stayed pregnant under the most horrendous conditions: starving in torture camps, after car accidents and whatever. There is, unfortunately for Sansa, a huge advantage for pregnancies in young women. And healthy 18 year olds will most likely get pregnant if they have regular sex during the time of ovulation, meaning over a week or more in one cycle.

So we do not know if Martin wants to go that road with Sansa. But from a medical point of view a pregnancy story would not be anyhow absurd or illogical.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Well, realistically, they're still married, so they're marriage wouldn't end even if Sansa was to survive the jump and successfully escape. The only way it would dissolve at this point is if Sansa or Ramsay were to die. As for everything else, let's just agree to disagree. You are right though...Ramsay obviously wasn't there the nights he was attacking Stannis' camp.

Or she could get married again since being already married doesn't matter in the show.

^Not that complicated. It's simply the result of haphazardly trying to compress the story lines of 3000 pages into a 10 hour season. That much slicing and dicing requires a lot of care for the story threads to still hold together. They ended up cutting out a lot and combining many characters and accelerating the plot. Jeynsa was one of the result. Stannis's quick defeat, too.

HBO is probably pressuring the producers and creators to finish the series. The truth is the most successful HBO shows do not go beyond a 7th season for a reason--costs begin to rise faster than ratings towards the end.

Oh. I read the opposite. They want the money maker to last.

[Wouter]

I call bullshit if Theon and Sansa escape from a fall that height without dying or suffering extremely serious injuries. Bull. Shit. They are not fucking cats.

...Yes, I am aware that it happened that way in the books, with Jeyne having only some broken ribs to show for it. I still call bullshit. GRRM's medical knowledge is shit, but there's no reason for the show to make the same mistake.

Just as it is BS that Sam survived his end-of-S2 encounter with a huge army of wights and white walkers? It's TV. Apparently they didn't put much effort in making this scene even semi-realistic, but the plot calls for their survival so survive they will (which probably also means not even broken legs).

If they were supposed to be death, they would have shown it like they did with Myranda's fall and probably have focused extra on the silent bodies afterwards.

Thus my speculation that one or both of them could die from the fall. If all Theon has left to do in the books is being executed by Stannis, something which cannot happen in the show, I'd say bumping him off in 6x01 would be a good way of getting rid of the character to streamline the narrative, something as we have seen the writers are extremely fond of doing; he shatters his spine, Brienne and Pod arrive to whisk Sansa away, Sansa wants to take Theon, Theon requests a mercy kill, Sansa tearfully forgives him, Brienne offs Theon, DONE. As for Theon being kept around in the show to invalidate the kingsmoot, it depends on whether there is one in the show. I tend to think it will be left out; a big crowd scene with a bunch of nobodies except Yara? Seems like the sort of thing that would easily get cut for budget reasons so they can save up money for dragons. And if there's no kingsmoot, there's no reason to keep Theon around. I imagine there might be some scene where Yara's like "Why does Euron get to appoint himself king? I'm Balon's daughter" and someone else is like "Girl, please, no one will take you seriously after your disastrous outing against Ramsay," and that will be the end of that.

Theon has story left in him in the books, IMO. I see him being used as a figurehead against Euron. Euron is getting cast for S6, by the way. The show probably will not use a King's moot, but I expect the basic story to remain: Euron takes power and then leads the Ironborn to ruin because of his dragon ambitions, and Asha/Yara and/or The Reader make use of Theon as part of a plot to depose him.

And Sansa is still in the learning phase in the books, like Arya and Bran. No way that GRRM hasn't stuff planned, "post-graduate", for all three of them.

[Wouter]

I hate to be pessimistic, and I hate to say this even more, but she really isn't out of the woods yet. How much time has passed between episodes 6 and 10? Maybe a month, if that? The majority of women learn of a pregnancy during the 5th-6th week after conception. Assuming that Ramsay visited her every night, Sansa would have to wait at least another 2-3 months to find out if she was, indeed, pregnant herself.

We can be sure that Sansa is not pregnant with Ramsays child (or anyone's child) in the books. Apparently, Jeyne wasn't pregnant either. Hence, there will be no consequences of this kind in the show either.

For Sansa's character, this plotline was to give the actress something to do with the Vale arc scrapped. Only for Theon will it have much lasting meaning. It is his book plot, after all.

[Lord Freypie]

Yep.

(...)

Not only did Sansa at Winterfell not add or subtract anything from Sansa's character but it also added or subtracted nothing from Ramsay's character. Let's trace his arc. Well, we can't because there isn't one. He was a psychopath who liked to murder and rape at the beginning of his character and seasons later, he is the exact same character. No arc, no development, still just torturing and raping everything. Raping Sansa was just more of the same for Ramsay.

I had hope for Sansa and her story but now I do not. D&D said in their post show interview last night that Stannis did the worst thing be sacrificing his daughter for the Iron Throne. Well, in a lot of ways, D&D have done the same thing. They've sacrificed the arc and development their main character (in many ways, the show's daughter) for the sake of temporarily grabbing headlines and getting ratings. You know what else? It didn't pay off.

Good resume.

[Wouter]

HBO is probably pressuring the producers and creators to finish the series. The truth is the most successful HBO shows do not go beyond a 7th season for a reason--costs begin to rise faster than ratings towards the end.

It's the other way round. D&D want to finish the show in 70-75 episodes because it has been taking so much of their time for so many years that they are getting exhausted, and they want to work toward a well-defined ending.

High ranking HBO executives have gone on record they would like GOT to get 10 or so seasons. It's a money-machine for them, and also their flagship show. Without it, they have a gaping hole in their schedule.

[Wouter]

Double post.

[Kobayashi Maru]

I believe their thought process went something like this: We need to conserve resources (i.e., money). She is heading there anyway. This was there is one less location to film and many less actors we have to cast (and pay). We can spend more time on less locations, rather than less time on more locations. This will simply the story.

Budget issues is perfectly understandable excuse. If there isn't money there isn't...then why spend all that money to shoot Dorn scenes in Spain (they said it was so expensive they only could afford couple of days shooting time ). They've spent so much more than they needed just so we could see how beautiful Seville or wherever they were shooting were. Considering how stupid and pointless Don was this year I just don't see that budget as an excuse for making Sansa's arc melt into Jayne's is anything more than bs. They had all that Sand Snakes and Ellaria when they could have had one actress playing Arianne...so they do want to spend the money but they just didn't want to spend it on Sansa and northen conspiracy because they are not interesting enough (in their opinion) to deserve that. Instead we got Dorn and three xena wariors who conveniently undress often.

I am not really speaking to the merits of their decision or the execution, those are wholly separate issues. But I can understand the reasoning behind it.

One thing to consider, if they had tried to adapt Sansa's somewhat faithfully, that would be five to eight minutes less screen time everywhere else, for six to eight episodes at the very least.

Six to eight minutes less of Jaime being as useful as ficus in the corner, Gray Warm and Missandei discussing whores and unsullied, Tyrion not being bummed about the fact he killed his father at all joing about cock merchants,Ramsay flaying more people, Ollie giving looks like it's candy, Arya washing corpses for three episodes,Brienne camping and looking at the tower,....real tragedy. And we could have had, Frey Pies, Mysterious murders in WF, Mormont she bears, Sansa learning LF plan slowly like she did in the books,us seeing SR being poisoned little by little and her eventually being betrothed to HtH.

[Saltire Knight]

But now tell me why did she need to get raped every night she was there? What was that building on or towards?

Precisely because she was there. If you put Sansa in that situation it makes no sense for her not to get raped.

The only thing we know for sure is that it builds towards a Reek/Theon 'redemption' arc.

Regards anything else (Sansa/Ramsay) it may yet build to something, but that we have not seen. There is at present absolutely no evidence of that, so all you and I can do is have some faith that D&D will set that right. *sigh*

Sansa and Stannis are my two favourite characters so you can imagine how I feel about season 5.

[Kobayashi Maru]

Theon has story left in him in the books, IMO. I see him being used as a figurehead against Euron. Euron is getting cast for S6, by the way. The show probably will not use a King's moot, but I expect the basic story to remain: Euron takes power and then leads the Ironborn to ruin because of his dragon ambitions, and Asha/Yara and/or The Reader make use of Theon as part of a plot to depose him.

Before he's dethroned by Asha and Theon he will probably rape both of them just to empower them enough for the rebellion...and then someone else will do it for them.

/sarcasm

I hate what they did with Sansa's arc this season. It started when she just stood up and said who she is in front of the Vale lords last season. It continued when she left the Vale this season and went traveling like it's not a big deal while she was still one of the two most wanted people in Westeros. Well yes she changes her hair,only to have that scene with Brienne in the middle of some Inn where they said her name often and loudly. Right there and then I was disappointed already with the stupidity of LF and Sansa's character (and even Brienne's in the show,remember in the book she is also not looking for Sansa but for a girl who she claims is her sister) in the show and the aloof way they were treating the matter of Sansa being in danger. They had Varys keep Tyrion in the box for episodes and the first time he got out he got kidnapped,and he was on another continent. This idiotic depiction of the events alone made me cringe but I held my breath in hope that D&D know what happens next in Sansa's story line in the books cause GRRM told them and they decided to cut short her Vale time in order to get to this story.I actually hoped they are going in that direction cause I wanted to see what is next for Sansa....but they didn't want to tell Sansa's story apparently...they decided to just ignore Sansa's story and do what they like.

And it was a disaster.

Justifying Sansa becoming Jane with budget issues falls flat on the face when you see where they've decided to spend that money instead. Dorn could have easily been shoot in Croatia for example (they did shoot Dany's walk across the red waste there so it's possible) and it would cost less and be more like actual Dorn in the books (which is desert and not grassy Rohan ) and they could have less people cast as nameless whores or even cut Myranda entirely and use that money to pay for one maybe two appearances of Jayne Pool. There you go no budget issues. Vale in general looked like build set,so they have it already,they've used it last season so why not just keep what you already have and continue using it?

And all those who say she did nothing in Vale....well I disagree,those were one of the more interesting chapters in the books for me. Trough her we saw first glimpses of LF plans and to me that and the fact she was constantly in the tense situation of being in hiding, scared she might be outed and delivered to the queen, the threat of SR being poisoned, prospect of marriage and the reasons behind it....all this is to me far more interesting than many plots in ADWD and AFFC including Dany sitting and doing nothing in Mereen. And if they wanted it could have been made good,and it wouldn't have to use up more than 4-5 episodes stretched trough the season. Anything would be better than what they did.

They changed her location, her behavior, her intelligence, her story (they had her raped) and only thing that is left is her name....to me what they have at the end of season 5 isn't Sansa...it's some fanfiction creation. And for all those who say I am only upset it's Sansa and she's people's favorite,and if it wasn't her if it was indeed Jayne who got raped no one would react that strongly I again say I must disagree. I am upset she got raped but not because it's our prescious Sansa...it's because IT NEVER HAPPENED TO HER!!! Call me insensitive but that's the reason why I can't get passed it...it...never ...happened ...to her. I was equally outraged and upset and very vocal in my rage when they decided to take other character,who never ever raped anyone and make him the rapist. Equally enraged,disappointed and loud in talking about it. Jaime is now so different from the books he's just ...Paul at this point, not Jaime.

The reason Sansa was there was explained so poorly it is laughable,they actually had to bend backwards to shoehorn her in WF and they didn't even provide half satisfying explanation. There is no reason for her to be there! If LF wanted to play the game with whoever gets out of the Bolton-Stannis conflict why put here there before the conflict. It's idiotic. Even if he didn't care about weather she will be raped or harmed by theBoltons,wouldn't he care if she survives at least? Putting here in the middle of the siege just puts her in position of becoming collateral damage. Even if you believe not Bolton or Sannis would ever harm her she might have easily been just a chance victim of the battle and no one ,not even stupid LF from the show would do that when all he has to do is wait for the battle to be over and then deal with whoever has won.

If you say it's only an adaptation and we can't put everything in...well if you take away characterization, plot and logic all you have left is a hot mess and not adaptation. It's amockery of an adaptation is there for your amusement alone,it's nothing more than fanfiction.I wouldn't even be surprised if it was taken from some very bad fanfiction,I'm sure there is one out there in which Sansa and Ramsay get married,hell she's been paired with everyone.

[Lady Lovisa]

(snip)

Sansa and Stannis are my two favourite characters so you can imagine how I feel about season 5.

Same boat, buddy. You and me both :grouphug:

TWOW is our last hope

[A Ghost of Someone]

Well, she was beloved by me.

Martin has presented her as very intelligent girl who outwits her young fiancé at cyvasse. Given the cyvasse symbolism in the books she is constructed as a potential strategist, apart from being simply a nice girl. So we could have rooted for her to end in a position of power, not due to her name but due to intelligence, to merit.

Unfortunately this got lost in the show, no cyvasse allegory, (not for her not those wonderful scenes during Tyrion's boat trip). In the show Myrcella is a nice and normal teenager in love who comes over as warm hearted and caring right before she may be dead. If she is dead now she has been no more than a story tool.

You have my sympathies. However, in my opinion there is a whole world of difference between Sansa and Myrcella. To each there own.

[A Ghost of Someone]

I disagree.

A grown woman who knows about her body would know how to read the signs after ten days. A young girl who has been through so much and has no medical knowledge might not even realize that her period is missing or she would put any physical discomfort or nausea on her dire situation. It is quite likely that Sansa, like so many pregnant teenagers, only gets aware of her situation when she is three months into her pregnancy, at a time when the amount of moon tea needed might turn into serious poisoning. If she knows where to get any. Would there be a competent midwife around to do a "mechanical" abortion?

And women have stayed pregnant under the most horrendous conditions: starving in torture camps, after car accidents and whatever. There is, unfortunately for Sansa, a huge advantage for pregnancies in young women. And healthy 18 year olds will most likely get pregnant if they have regular sex during the time of ovulation, meaning over a week or more in one cycle.

So we do not know if Martin wants to go that road with Sansa. But from a medical point of view a pregnancy story would not be anyhow absurd or illogical.

This is D&D''s travesty, Cogman too. Not GRRM. just saying.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Same boat, buddy. You and me both :grouphug:

TWOW is our last hope

Sansa, hell all of the Starks and Jon Snow. They are all either missing, life's hanging on a cliffhanger or blind. This was the most dreadful season. Sansa though, having her prolonged suffering of rapes is worse to me as we cannot help her, Arya had some agency but she was on track with what we knew. Jon has Mel nearby. Bran is in the Tree with Bloodraven, Rickon has Osha. Sansa, like LE Cyre stated," a virgin lamb being led to the slaughter", we hoped other things would intervene but no. Reg Stannis, what a deflated let down. Lame, Lame, Lame.

[BlackStark]

Precisely because she was there. If you put Sansa in that situation it makes no sense for her not to get raped.

The only thing we know for sure is that it builds towards a Reek/Theon 'redemption' arc.

Regards anything else (Sansa/Ramsay) it may yet build to something, but that we have not seen. There is at present absolutely no evidence of that, so all you and I can do is have some faith that D&D will set that right. *sigh*

Sansa and Stannis are my two favourite characters so you can imagine how I feel about season 5.

My problem with this is I think you have the sequence of events D & D wanted to show backwards. Rather than Sansa is there, so she must be raped, from the way the season progressed, it seems to be D & D wanted Sansa to be raped (for shock value) so let's figure a way to get her there. Considering they stripped away all the elements of the Winterfell/Northern storyline (Mance and the spearwives, the tension between the Northern lords and the Freys, mysterious deaths among Bolton partisans, Stannis making common cause with the Northern clans), it is quite eye opening the one element they chose to keep: the rape and brutalization of Jeyne Poole only this time replaced by Sansa Stark. The Battle of Ice on the show has ended and the Boltons are victorious and the presence or absence of Sansa Stark had no impact on it or the Northern storyline whatsoever.

You argue that it is necessary for Reek/Theon's redemption arc. My question is why are you twisting and destroying a primary character's arc (Sansa) to service a secondary character's (Theon). And to what end? Given that Stannis has been removed from the equation and the Ironborn have been a non-factor (in show Balon is still alive), what purpose does Theon really serve?