Le Cygne Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 OK first of all, Jon would never view Arya as just a "murdered-obsessed cousin". He will accept her no matter what. Arya even thinks to herself, "Jon will want me, even if no one else does. " and it's fucking true. They have an extra special bond of unconditional love, its right in the books.Also I don't think that Jon would forget how Sansa made him feel different for being a bastard when they were growing up. Even when Jon is thinking about his family he says that he misses all of them "even Sansa". Their relationship was a little more than distant. Yeah, that's all insurmountable stuff. It wasn't put there for no reason at all. They teamed up against Sansa! I'm both an Arya and a Sansa fan, but Sansa wasn't very nice to either Arya or Jon. There's no great love set up there. They are family, they'll be loyal to an extent, but there's nothing deep between either one of them and Sansa. Jon and Arya, that goes deep. As does Sansa and Sandor...Also, the speculation is actually pretty funny, it's a sign of how badly they've developed these characters, that people think they are all interchangeable. Swap one sister for another, no one is special to anyone. These characters are so shallow on the show, they really screwed up. That someone who means so much to someone in the books could seem to mean nothing on the show.The show doesn't do missing each other well (that's an understatement). Here, Kit is telling us that right here, they wouldn't help him show he missed her UNTIL SHE DIED:No. The hard thing for me with this season – and I wrote to the writers about it early on – is that I wanted the audience to know he's been missing her. In the books he thinks about her constantly. It's there, written down, that he's thinking about Ygritte. In this he doesn't mention her once until the very beginning of this episode. The real challenge for me this season was showing the audience that he loves her without saying anything or talking about it. Which is kind of impossible, showing the audience the inner-workings of your head. So I had to find moments of that happening and I hope I did.http://www.elle.com/culture/movies-tv/news/a24864/kit-harington-dragon-interview/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya-Jon Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Sorry, I fixed it! That's what I meant to grab. I've never seen a show this bad at showing characters missing each other. It's damned odd.That quote was a real nice find ! I just feel that they could have removed some unneccesary scenes and actually done some character development especially for Arya and Jon and the reasons behind his oathbreaking. And a few more seasons to fit it. I hate their logic of "We need a character whom the audience are invested in" to change storylines in such a way that it diverts from in the book. It is these changes and incomplete character developmetn which has lead to this thread and the false presumptions. I do think they handled Sansa well at most places other than the rape scene. Though that last scene with the hound could have been done a bit better. They made her more smart, and a little less of an idiot(running to Cersei to tell about Ned's plans) That scene with Royce and Littlefinger was cool. The change in the reasoning behind Tyrion killed his father, the way Jaime raped Cersei were certainly not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Sorry, I fixed it! That's what I meant to grab. I've never seen a show this bad at showing characters missing each other. It's damned odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 On the Show, I think Jon and Mel are destined for each others' arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Friendzone Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 On the Show, I think Jon and Mel are destined for each others' arms.Hahaha. If she lives...sex yes, romance no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Hahaha. If she lives...sex yes, romance no.It's one area where I expect the Show and Books to coincide. I don't think Jon and Mel are destined to end the series together, but I think they will be lovers for a time in TWOW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 I could imagine D&D thinking, "would it not be awesome if Jon Snow was placed on a funeral pyre, naked and Mel stripped and climbed on top of him and orders it lit as she bends down to kiss him and we see the flames engulf them and Jon emerges a moment or two later" ..... Do not doubt that this has not crossed their minds since they love her to flash nudity so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woman of War Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 I could imagine D&D thinking, "would it not be awesome if Jon Snow was placed on a funeral pyre, naked and Mel stripped and climbed on top of him and orders it lit as she bends down to kiss him and we see the flames engulf them and Jon emerges a moment or two later" ..... Do not doubt that this has not crossed their minds since they love her to flash nudity so much.uh, go on imagining........did you have an interesting night.......nice of you to pass on your fantasies for all of us to enjoy.......:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted December 16, 2015 Author Share Posted December 16, 2015 uh, go on imagining........did you have an interesting night.......nice of you to pass on your fantasies for all of us to enjoy.......:DWell, my dear, you are very welcome, it would, creatively that is, certainly be up D&D's alley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Friendzone Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 It's one area where I expect the Show and Books to coincide. I don't think Jon and Mel are destined to end the series together, but I think they will be lovers for a time in TWOW.Not sure if I would use term lovers, because that would require feelings from both sides. I can see Mel thinking "this is my chosen one" and be all lovey around him. Jon hardly, but it depends if he is truly a changed man. But something sexual is on the cards, me thinks. Who do you think he is destined to end up with if with anyone at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 From the last season it seems clear that Mel suspects Jon has Kingsblood in him, or has seen him in her fires. I suspected her odd seduction scene was about her trying to get some sort of shadow baby from him, or whatever her motive, it wasn't out of sexual attraction or any feelings she had for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Friendzone Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Based on that scene...a lot of people thought that Mel knows something about his Targ side and his true parentage, but I doubt that. Starks were Kings too. She tried to seduce him for shadow baby and next time he will be more willing to cooperate. Maybe that's why Roose is out of a picture. Not by the hands of Ramsay, but this is for another debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winds of Winter blow cold Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 She may not have it all figured out in either the books or show but she definitely wants to make Demon Shadow Babies with him! :nod: Which brings me back to my belief that maybe she might need for Sansa to take over that chore when Mel can't do it anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masha Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 OK first of all, Jon would never view Arya as just a "murdered-obsessed cousin". He will accept her no matter what. Arya even thinks to herself, "Jon will want me, even if no one else does. " and it's fucking true. They have an extra special bond of unconditional love, its right in the books.Also I don't think that Jon would forget how Sansa made him feel different for being a bastard when they were growing up. Even when Jon is thinking about his family he says that he misses all of them "even Sansa". Their relationship was a little more than distant. We are talking about the show not the books now, if Sansa runs toward Jon (as it looks more and more likely due to rumors of season 6 filming), by the time they both meet they both will be wounded both in body and spirit. Him obviously because of his NW brothers betrayal and murder (and death can certainly mess up someone mind) and her through Ramsey's abuse, wounds taken while jumping from that wall, and if she literally slogs through the snow to get to him - major food and shelter deprivation So regardless of their distant relationship when they were children, now that, as far as they know, they are only Starks left other than missing little brothers, are are hunted, abused and wounded and weak, when they would meet like that - they relationship would turn from "distant" to "us against the whole world" type. And that would make them become really close, unless some new love-crush (Dany, fAegon.., Harry the Heir) would enter the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 They are still basically brother and sister. Arya too.. Honestly think this is a dead end theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myself656 Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 They are still basically brother and sister. Arya too.. Honestly think this is a dead end theory."Basically" is just another way of saying "not at all, actually."They're cousins by blood. Jon and Arya were very close like siblings (so Westermarck effect is likely). Jon and Sansa were distant with Sansa being sure to add "half-" or "bastard" before any use of the phrase "brother."----------I agree with Masha above that the show is very likely setting up an "us against the world" scenario for Jon and Sansa in season six (which will be further transformed by the revelation that they're cousins and not half-siblings), particularly if the rumors of...Rickon being killed...turn out to be true. Gotta remember, from their POV's Arya has been missing/presumed dead since the end of season one, Jon knows Bran went off on a quest north of the Wall (so missing/presumed dead) and while Rickon is alive they don't know WHERE he actually is or if he's even still alive (just that he was alive when last Sam saw him back in season three).If this meetup is intended to lead to a marriage then pushing them together now in the show vs. sticking with the books where Sansa is unlikely to arrive in the North until late in book six with the Vale armies (at the earliest) could be due to the belief by D&D that Jon/Sansa would be a harder sell to general audiences accustomed to romance than it would be to readers of the books where purely political marriages have been portrayed as the norm and one between cousins might be used to resolve some dispute or consolidate power (plus its easier/quicker to convey internal emotions and their in a book than onscreen).Even leaving aside the Westermarck effect (Jon IS part Targ after all) the big reason why I'd expect Sansa over Arya is that GRRM has been pretty consistent on "love matches equal disaster" while political matches can bring stability and the simple fact is that, in terms of inheritance Sansa has precedence over Arya. If Bran remains a tree and something happens to Rickon then Sansa inherits the North while Arya only inherits if Sansa also dies.Presuming Jon ends up on the Iron Throne (which I consider likely because I think Dany's going to have to end up doing some spiritual union of opposites with the Night King that will put her well behind the realms of mortals when its all over) what better way to gather a whole bunch of land under one banner than to wed the Queen of the North? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya-Jon Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 They're cousins by blood. Jon and Arya were very close like siblings (so Westermarck effect is likely). Jon and Sansa were distant with Sansa being sure to add "half-" or "bastard"I guess you need to sharpen your definitions of Westermarck effect. Here is what it statesA study of the marriage patterns of these children later in life revealed that out of the nearly 3,000 marriages that occurred across the kibbutz system, only fourteen were between children from the same peer group. Of those fourteen, none had been reared together during the first six years of life. This result suggests that the Westermarck effect operates during the period from birth to the age of six.What matters is not whether they are close but whether they are reared together (bolded in the above quote) . As both Sansa and Arya were reared with Jon both would have Westermarck effect operating on them (theoretically).For Jon he grew up with Sansa from the age of 4, And he grew up with Arya from the of 6 (which falls outside the period from birth to age of 6 in which Westermarck effect is supposed to act). So theoretically if at all any Westermarck effect is operating on Jon it will be lesser towards Arya and more towards Sansa.Though its amusing so many people are taking Westermarck effect seriously when Grrm has never cared about it , at least with Jaime and Cersei and the Targaryens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drogonthedread Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 I guess you need to sharpen your definitions of Westermarck effect. Here is what it statesWhat matters is not whether they are close but whether they are reared together (bolded in the above quote) . As both Sansa and Arya were reared with Jon both would have Westermarck effect operating on them (theoretically).For Jon he grew up with Sansa from the age of 4, And he grew up with Arya from the of 6 (which falls outside the period from birth to age of 6 in which Westermarck effect is supposed to act). So theoretically if at all any Westermarck effect is operating on Jon it will be lesser towards Arya and more towards Sansa.Though its amusing so many people are taking Westermarck effect seriously when Grrm has never cared about it , at least with Jaime and Cersei and the Targaryens.people really stop picking targaryens and jamie and cersei as an way of defending this theory ..... Is it that hard to see what is the difference between targs Jamie and cersei and this theory .... The targs from the moment they born they know they are going to Marry their sibling....which is not the case here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya-Jon Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 The targs from the moment they born they know they are going to Marry their sibling....which is not the case here Firstly , what you are saying implies that the aversion to incest is not due to Westermarck effect, which would prevent Jaeharys from being attracted to his sister and defy his fathers will (Aegon arranged a match for JaeharysII with Celia Tully. But he defied his father and married his sister.) but it is due to cultural pressure. What westermarck effect claims is that even if there is no cultural pressure of not marrying siblings, siblings will naturally not be attracted to each other if they have grown up together.Jamie and Cersei knew they were not marrying each other right from the begining. And even according to the Westermarck effect rules they are extremely unlikely to get attracted to each other. Some people say that they got attracted because they look similar.. But hey that applies to Arya/ Jon too. Loras and Margaery too for that matter.Thats why I dont see the whole point of your statement? What are you trying to say? The discussion was about Westermarck effect. How is your point related to it. Are you trying to say - That Grrm takes care of Westermarck effect and bows to its laws in his books? As the evidence i have provided suggestes, he does not care much about it.The reason i mentioned Targs is not to talk about cultural barriers but Westermarck effect in particular. Do you know what it is? It is about growing up together, not about knowing all along whether or not you are going to marry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drogonthedread Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Firstly , what you are saying implies that the aversion to incest is not due to Westermarck effect, which would prevent Jaeharys from being attracted to his sister and defy his fathers will. (Aegon arranged a match for JaeharysII with Celia Tully. But he defied his father and married his sister. ) But it is due to cultural pressure. What westermarck effect claims is that even if there is no cultural pressure of not marrying siblings, siblings will naturally not be attracted to each other if they have grown up together.Jamie and Cersei knew they were not marrying each other right from the begining. And even according to the Westermarck effect rules they are extremely unlikely to get attracted to each other. Some people say that they got attracted because they look similar.. But hey that applies to Arya/ Jon too. Loras and Margaery too for that matter.Thats why I dont see the whole point of your statement? What are you trying to say? The discussion was about Westermarck effect. How is your point related to it. Are you trying to say - That Grrm takes care of Westermarck effect and bows to its laws in his books? As the evidence i have provided suggestes, he does not care much about it.The reason i mentioned Targs is not to talk about cultural barriers but Westermarck effect in particular. Do you know what it is? It is about growing up together, not about knowing all along whether or not you are going to marry. no iam not talking about westermarch effect in particular I was more pointing towards people who use this argument that as for as marrying your sister the targs and Jamie and cersei did that many times so it can appen with arya and jon or sansa too ...but the difference is they were brought up its ok to marry their sibling but the starks were not brought up the same way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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