On the show, are Sansa and Jon destined for each other's arms?

[Le Cygne]

Wait, when did the show set up Jon and Sansa "heavily"?

A name drop about the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch is not "heavily." What the show has set up is a conflict between Littlefinger and the Hound. They had Littlefinger tell Sansa the story of his face to scare her. It worked, she was scared of him after that, even though she didn't appear scared when she spoke to him when they met on the Kingsroad.  They had Littlefinger call the Hound a grotesque in his deleted scene from S02 with Varys. Littlefinger says he needed to get some sons when Joff gave him Harrenhal. They had the Hound say Sansa's sons would "be killers someday." And that she better get used to looking at killers - that being proceeded by "look at me." Sandor attempting to spirit Sansa away, Littlefinger actually doing it. Sansa has her discussion about Rhaegar and Lyanna and her rape by him with Littlefinger  - then she herself is raped. And note that the Hound is in the cut of the Ned/Littlefinger moment when LF turns on him and holds the knife to his throat. 

Sansa must choose the 'right' monster - the right beast of a husband. Hers is the marriage fable of Westeros. That does not include Jon Snow. She will not choose UnJon as her 'unPrince.'  Sansa is the outsider in Stark-land. She's going to choose an outsider husband, who's still a beast. UnJon has far more pressing business than Sansa. 

Besides who really wants to see them hook-up? It would be yet another way the show has stripped Sansa of her story and given her to a male character who has more of a role and story, yet again, sidelining her. I think Sansa deserves better. She deserves her own storyline. Unfortunately it seems the show wants to make up their own version, but I believe it will be a version based on the books. And I don't see a Jon and Sansa partnering in the books. I do see a Sansa and Sandor one, though.

Yeah, and they also clearly set up Beauty and the Beast for Sansa and the Hound, like his favorite version (the author gives the Hound the same lines as the Beast, and he even requested artwork with Sansa and the Hound that is just like the movie poster). They've been dropping lots of Beauty and Beast references throughout the Sansa and the Hound storylines (and they do the same for the other BatB story he is telling, Jaime and Brienne). And that they set things up with the cloak symbolism is a good sign.

And yeah, the Littlefinger and Hound conflict is central, they even tipped that off in one of the things they said. If you listen to their interviews and outside the episode bits, they say lots of telling things. They had him walk up to the gate, standing in the same position that LF was standing in, next to Sansa. And they tossed out the marriage to Tyrion, to clear the path. The real conflict, and the one he's setting up in the books, is between Littlefinger and the Hound. What she wants vs. what LF wants. It's all set up.

[Jellyfish]

There are so many Beauty and beast possibilities in the story. I dont know why people concentrate on Sansa with Sandor. There is Baelish, Tyrion, Jon, so many. And none of them might be a Happy End.

I do not even know why people concentrate on Sansa at all. Brienne and Jaime are more touching. 

And Sansa will choose what GRRM will allow her to choose, the show will follow.

But it is easy to see all the possibilities if you are not emotionally involved with specifically one of them. So i am lucky, whatever happens i will not be disappointed. No San/San, Bae/San, Ty/San or Jon/San preferrence. I do not care for one of them  Only for Bri/Jai

[TepidHands]

Brienne and Jaime are more touching. 

 

I ahve to admit that I'm in this camp, too (despite my tremendous respect for Le Cygne, who is an awesome writer and scholar of this story). I loved the Jaime/Brienne story, in the books, and in season 3 on the show; remember, it wasn't that long ago when this scene appeared, maybe the last time it seemed the show was trying to be faithful to the soul  of GRRM's story and characters. 

But as for Sansa's story going where GRRM wants it to go, and the show following? In the story, she's certainly NOT married to monster Ramsay and not being raped and beaten nightly in her parents' bed. The show has gone where GRRM would never, because he's a good storyteller, and, in my opinion, the guys who wrote most of season 4 and all of season 5 are not. 

ETA: This is not to say that I don't love me some Sandor and Sansa. Season 2, Blackwater, when Sansa said, "You won't hurt me," Sophie was able to carry off that line with all the confidence that comes from being a teenager, and despite all that makeup, you can watch the emotions flicker across Rory's face. It was a well done scene, and the actors sold it. But that was Season 2. Instead we got the mishmash of Season 4 and the unadulterated misery of Season 5, and nary a random reference to any of these relationships. 

[Le Cygne]

The author said he's writing two Beauty and the Beast stories: Sansa and the Hound, and Jaime and Brienne. They are both popular stories, you don't have to choose one or the other. I like both.

Not every ugly and pretty story is a Beauty and the Beast story. And in fact, there are other roles being played by the various supporting characters in the two stories he's telling.

Beauty and the Beast is a story of sexual awakening (GRRM's favorite version is Jean Cocteau), the two Beauties are turned on by the Beasts, we see this in the desires of Sansa for Sandor, and Brienne for Jaime.

Sansa and the Hound is the classic take, he's following Cocteau all the way, here's a great review, and there's also a picture of the poster art that is like the calendar art that GRRM requested for Sansa and the Hound:

http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/great-movie-beauty-and-the-beast-1946

Interestingly, he also put pictures of both of his Beauty and the Beast pairs on his website:

Sansa and the Hound

Jaime and Brienne

[TepidHands]

(Arya)The story of the beasts is important, too (/Arya) Both Sandor and Jaime are damaged men, made beastly by physical and mental cruelties. The innocence (and naivete) of the beauties calls to that damaged part. It makes them want to be better men, than honor doesn't just get you killed, that trust is earned, then returned. 

Ah damn, it was a great story. Too bad they didn't show it. 

[Le Cygne]

The Beasts are important, too!

Very true. And they aren't showing the stories nearly as well as they should be. Although they keep hinting at them both, with Beauty and Beast references. They have set up the two pairings, and I think they plan to go there, from everything they have said, but these stories could have been much more beautifully told.

[Mandzipop]

The author said he's writing two Beauty and the Beast stories: Sansa and the Hound, and Jaime and Brienne. They are both popular stories, you don't have to choose one or the other. I like both.

Not every ugly and pretty story is a Beauty and the Beast story. And in fact, there are other roles being played by the various supporting characters in the two stories he's telling.

Beauty and the Beast is a story of sexual awakening, as GRRM tells it, the two Beauties are turned on by the Beasts, we see this in the desires of Sansa for Sandor, and Brienne for Jaime (she plays the Beauty in this respect).

That doesn't mean that they will end up together. He also writes realism. Sansa is a teenage girl going through puberty. Duty will come first above love/lust. Both Jon and Sansa love someone else unobtainable, if they are forced to marry for duty and political purposes then there is nothing romantic about that ending. Just because we as the viewer/reader see them as the heroic handsome prince and the fair maiden, it does not mean that the characters will view each other that way. There is that icky factor. Plus, lets face it, neither of them are the life and soul of the party.

If it is an end game in the books for political reasons, then I think the show may have to go about it slightly differently. They might opt for a slightly more romantic ending.

I really see Jamie and Brienne as organic and touching and is possible in the real world. It also translates well on screen. However, I can't see it ending well. I hope I'm wrong.

[TepidHands]

The Beasts are important, too!

Very true. And they aren't showing the stories nearly as well as they should be. Although they keep hinting at them both, with Beauty and Beast references. They have set up the two pairings, and I think they plan to go there, from everything they have said, but these stories could have been much more beautifully told.

Plus on a purely selfish level, since the show generally isn't as good as the books, even if they don't tell the damn story, I could just look at NCW or Rory McCann for an hour with the sound off.

Sad to say, f they return Sandor to Sansa, or have Jaime suddenly wake up on his way back to Kings Landing, take off his Larry face and spiffy leather coat, and go, "WAIT! WHERE'S BRIENNE?" it would feel cheap, and sudden, and disconnected. Kind of like Season 5, come to think of it. 

[SeanF]

The Beasts are important, too!

Very true. And they aren't showing the stories nearly as well as they should be. Although they keep hinting at them both, with Beauty and Beast references. They have set up the two pairings, and I think they plan to go there, from everything they have said, but these stories could have been much more beautifully told.

I think Jaime's attraction to Brienne is based on seeing in her the chivalrous knight he once dreamed of being. "Once he had dreamed of being Ser Arthur Dayne, but somewhere along the way, he had become the Smiling Knight instead."

One important thing they have in common is an absolute lack of worldly ambition. Brienne doesn't care if her father produces a son, who'll inherit Tarth, and Jaime has no interest in Casterly Rock. They're quite content to be knights-errant.

[Le Cygne]

And the same for Sandor, he once dreamed of being a chivalrous knight, too.

[Le Cygne]

Plus on a purely selfish level, since the show generally isn't as good as the books, even if they don't tell the damn story, I could just look at NCW or Rory McCann for an hour with the sound off.

Sad to say, f they return Sandor to Sansa, or have Jaime suddenly wake up on his way back to Kings Landing, take off his Larry face and spiffy leather coat, and go, "WAIT! WHERE'S BRIENNE?" it would feel cheap, and sudden, and disconnected. Kind of like Season 5, come to think of it. 

That is a pretty sight! As bad as they tell the stories, at least there are the pretty pictures. Fans can put the right words with them later.

[Granatto]

Looks like there's a alternative version of the song on the DVD audio files 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNLvfpVbzhM

 

*My topic about this is still pending

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

This business about "political" marriages working better than "love matches", I'm not sure Jon Arryn of Robert Bratheon would agree.

[Woman of War]

This business about "political" marriages working better than "love matches", I'm not sure Jon Arryn of Robert Bratheon would agree.

But people who believe a political marriage of Jon and Sansa might ( please, fellow posters, MIGHT! We are basically writing fanfic, like any shipping is ) happen do not think that this match has to work wonderfully  on a personal level. These two might have common political goals, might arrange themselves to let the baby making process become remotely agreeable and stay polite with each other as co-workers. Sansa as respected co-ruler in politics would be more than most  women could ever expect in  arranged marriages. And much more than Cersei or Lysa got.

But, as I wrote above, I do not believe that a truly dead Jon will sit the IT for fifty years and have a somewhat satisfying human family life.

[Winter's Cold]

But people who believe a political marriage of Jon and Sansa might ( please, fellow posters, MIGHT! We are basically writing fanfic, like any shipping is ) happen do not think that this match has to work wonderfully  on a personal level. These two might have common political goals, might arrange themselves to let the baby making process become remotely agreeable and stay polite with each other as co-workers. Sansa as respected co-ruler in politics would be more than most  women could ever expect in  arranged marriages. And much more than Cersei or Lysa got.

But, as I wrote above, I do not believe that a truly dead Jon will sit the IT for fifty years and have a somewhat satisfying human family life.

He can do that with Arya as well honestly.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I think even if it was a political marriage, the baby making process is still problematic. Despite what people here are suggesting, Jon and Sansa and Arya all grew up together in a situation where they saw each other as brother and sister. Even if its discovered thats not the case later on then it won't really change the way they see each other. 

Even being apart from your sibling for a few years and being reunited with them would not suddenly mean you fancy them. 

The Lannister twins are pretty messed up anyway and had been going on for a long time, its a different situation. 

I still don't see any of this happening, even the Arya thing in the books, its clear his feelings for her are brotherly and to do with his longing for a different life and for the past rather than wanting to bone his own sister. 

[Myself656]

 

He can do that with Arya as well honestly.

Not really. If Bran remains a tree and, has been rumored, Rickon ends up dead, then Sansa is heir to Winterfell. If you've got a new king who's looking to unite the realms in a long term peace do you wed the person that controls the largest chunk of land in the kingdom or the younger sister of the person who controls the largest chunk of land in the kingdom and who only inherits if the elder sister has no children of her own?

A political marriage to Sansa binds the North to the Crown in perpetuity for their heirs will be one and the same. It also ensures that a non-Stark doesn't abuse the situation as was the case with the Boltons, by ensuring that a Stark cousin is the father of any heirs. A political marriage to Arya wouldn't gain any of that (and once Sansa had a child of her own the claim to Winterfell would pass out of Crown's direct control and to Sansa's husband).

The only way that a marriage between Jon and Arya could be as good dynastically speaking as one between Jon and Sansa would be if Bran returns from the North and/or Rickon remains alive (as both are in line for Winterfell before Sansa).

On the metaphysical level, I believe that it is specifically Jon's balance between ice and fire that will be the key to resolving the oncoming armageddon in a way that doesn't end the world in eternal fire or ice. Based on rumors of his resurrection it will include both fire magic (via Mel) and ice magic (via Ghost) and those keep in the balance. It follows that the same would hold for his choice of bride. Dany is fire and right out (the same goes for Mel). Arya has the "wolfsblood" a strong tie to ice magic and is learning to bring death (which has been linked to cold and darkness vs. fire and light and life) and so should similarly be out as an options because she would throw the balance off every bit as much as Dany would.

Sansa though has specifically been cut off from her mystical heritage by the execution of Lady. She is neither fire nor ice (indeed, she's a balance too in that she's the most southern culturally despite being from the North and her appearance favors neither that of the First Men as Arya does nor the Targaryans as Dany does).

Then throw in D&D deciding to rush Sansa's storyarc north and towards Jon specifically (there was no other plot reason for Ramsey to specifically name drop that Jon had become Lord Commander; i.e. had forces that could protect her from Ramsey; to Sansa other than to put the plot point into her head of where she could go to when she decided to run) so that they would have more time to interact on the show than they would in the books (likely because D&D want something more general audiences would accept as a bittersweet rather than simply bitter ending because they have to show us and can't just write what their internal thoughts are). There's no reason to do that if Sansa is intended for someone else. If her story was to wed someone in the Vale or Littlefinger then they never would have sent her North in the first place. The same if her fate was to end up with Sandor (last seen near the Vale) since he's not up in the North either.

Its not so much that any one thing is a knockout punch in favor of Jon and Sansa, its that there's a whole bunch of little things that add up to a reasonable conclusion that Jon and Sansa are intended to end up as King and Queen of whatever post-apocalyptic world emerges from the coming Winter.

I think even if it was a political marriage, the baby making process is still problematic. Despite what people here are suggesting, Jon and Sansa and Arya all grew up together in a situation where they saw each other as brother and sister. Even if its discovered thats not the case later on then it won't really change the way they see each other.

And Cat was still in love with Ned's dead brother when they first laid in their wedding bed. In a dynastic situation love is a distant second to the needs of the realm to produce a legit heir (and backups because tragedies happen).

That said, I think both GRRM and D&D have taken steps to lessen this aspect. GRRM has made a pointed case of showing the distance between Jon and Sansa. She doesn't really think of him as her brother. He's her HALF-brother or BASTARD-brother. She's always qualified it to put distance between herself and him. Jon would never be Sansa's ideal choice... but he'll probably end up being the best of the bad options that are actually available to her.

Similarly, provided Jon is Rheaghar's son, they've already established that Targ's can be attracted to their sisters, regardless of how closely they were raised. That Sansa is instead his cousin makes it acceptable to the Smallfolk and the Faith while Jon's family predilection makes it less of a barrier for him.

Likewise, from a narrative standpoint, they barely interacted in the books and, other than a group shot where they were all lined up to meet the king, Jon and Sansa have never even been in the same scenes as each other or spoken a single line of dialogue to each other... from the audience's perspective they may as well be perfect strangers (whereas Jon has a number of brotherly scenes with Arya before they go their separate ways).

Like I said, there's no one knockout punch to the theory... but there's a lot of structural elements that support it if that's where the narrative chooses to go.

[Le Cygne]

1) Jon is a Stark, too.

2) The Hound took Lady's place. "Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it." That's about him. Her story is raining dogs, specifically, hounds. She thinks, Lady "could smell out falsehood," then literally runs right into Sandor, who says "a dog can smell a lie." And much more.

3) Sandor can go north, Sansa can go south. In the books, they are very close to each other. And there have been lots of hints, they even said a few seasons back, "The developing relationship between these two." "Much more to come." And there's more. From the author, too.

4) That Sansa and Jon had nothing to do with each other is not a good sign. They had a chance to make her important to him last season, and replaced her with Olly. And they said that it was learning that Bran and Rickon were alive that made the difference for her (this was AFTER she heard Jon was alive).

They are not going to put Sansa with the "brother" who loves the other sister. And then there was one. They even had Sandor hint he's coming back for her ("Ask her who came back for her.")

He's been telling a long, detailed story for them, since the first book.

Also, there's this (from the season 2 commentary, and here's a more recent picture):

Weiss:  It's a good thing that Rory is as tall as he is… Sophie must have grown a foot in the first year of the show…  Luckily she's playing against Rory who's also...
Benioff:  Yeah, he's genuinely massive.

[Arya-Jon]

 

That said, I think both GRRM and D&D have taken steps to lessen this aspect. GRRM has made a pointed case of showing the distance between Jon and Sansa. She doesn't really think of him as her brother.

Jon in the show had a line, where he said that my sisters are at King's landing. Sansa had a line in the books where she thought, "He may be  baseborn but he is the only brother that remains to me". So you are manipulating things to fit your story and then claim the theory has no loophole.

The reason why Jon-Sansa is unlikely is -Arya . Why do you think Sansa would care less about incest than Arya? How do you think Arya would react when the brother she misses the most, is always in bed with her sister? Wont she want to join up in the fun, lol? Ah.... I see Jon/Sansa theorists always like to paint Arya as a asexual or some sort.  But that is not true.

Her line to Gendry in the show "That I can be your family" does show she desires men as much as any other girl. Maisie said that the directors made her say the line as if she loves him. This crush is hinted at in the books too. One of the chief issues with Arya is "No one thinks I am pretty. Only Jon and Father" .  . It does not imply being asexual , but a distinct lack of esteem on her prettyness. This coupled with the line "Jon would want me, even if no one else does"  actually supports Arya-Jon as she looks to Jon as her only possible source of love and belonging. As someone who would love her despite anything. She actually has a fierce sense of loyality to Jon "I would never betray Jon, not even to my father:",  Further we have seen many references to Arya's growing beauty" http://donewithwoodenteeth.tumblr.com/post/71317665349/arya-stark-on-beauty-romance-and-all-those", even though she herself thinks she is not beautiful . 

When Jon is thinking abt Arya his internal monologue to Mellisandre is "What do you know of my heart priestess, what do you know of my sister" And his last line before death being "Stick it with the pointy end", it shows how inportant the Arya-Jon relationship is to the author. 

Read this- http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/125364-jon-arya-hints-and-overall-significance-of-their-relationship-including-part-3/

They even have a line "Where Jon tells Arya whatever you do dont Tell Sansa".  The speculation of Jon-Sansa laughs in the face of everything the author has built by just changing one sister for the other, under the false assumption that Jon does not think of Sansa as a sister even when there are so many lines which point to the same.

 

 

[Woman of War]

 

2) The Hound took Lady's place. "Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it." That's about him.

 

The Hound does precisely NOT take Lady's place.

When posters  refer to Lady's death they mean that Sansa has lost her spiritual link to the North. There Sandor is in no way a replacement. First reason: he is not Northern at all. Second reason: people refer to the metaphysical, the spiritual aspect, the link Lady as magical being presented to the mystical magical heritage some members of the Stark family have, the warging, greenseeing etc. How would Sandor be a replacement here, how would he wake any abilities in Sansa that have anything to do with her Northern family background?

 

I think Sansa is Sandor's doom, their possible common story  is about his tragedy  and not hers, though  she might finally shed one tear or two for him. Him being her bodyguard for the rest of his days would be quite lame, their story will end in tragedy, his tragedy.