On the show, are Sansa and Jon destined for each other's arms?

[Courtney Love]

On May 24, 2016 at 0:24 PM, RockyRagnarok said:

Its being foreshadwed this season

1. Their common goal of destroying the Boltons and reclaiming the North, Baelish is putting a bug in Sansa's ear that her Half Brother will have a claim on Winterfell (Bran and Rickon will not make it out alive, Bran lives on via the Weirnet) This will lead to Sansa not Jon coming up with the plan to inter marry thus legitimizing Jon as a Stark and they may even raise Ramsey's bastard as their own(if he isnt impotent, which could explain some of his rage, we did see him have sex with Miranda, yet no sons?)

2. The Tower of Joy will confirm that Jon is Sansa's cousin and True King of Westeros (which he'll refuse like Ned after the Mad King)

3. All the little details like

Igritte and Sansa are both Red Heads, leading me to believe Sansa will be kissed by Fire (Jon the Dragon) Jon and Igritte were married in the old ways and he buried here in the old ways, thus he is free to marry

Sansa was a PoW, and thus here marriages are all a farce, plus Tyrion is a Kingslayer and Ramsey(in show) is a bastard lunatic and will be erased from the history books

Sansa wanted to marry a prince and we all know who is being told he is the prince that was promised(in show only ATM)

Jon wanted to have a true born family, he didn't want to father possible bastards, he wants to sire his own pack... I can only hope Ghost gives birth to a new litter before the end of the Story

Sansa is a good leader and advisor, she'll be a perfect match for Jon, she'll love him and rule after his inevitable death at the hands of the Night's Watch...

 

 

Actually it's Arya that has the similarities to Ygritte. Hair color doesn't really mean much to Jon in women, it's the personality that matters.

Anyway as the remaining two direwolves, it would make sense for Ghost and Nymeria to mate. Wolves cannot reproduce asexually. 

[Gallivant]

I can't see Jon being involved in ANY romantic relationship - at least not in the books. He has come back from the dead! This is not a normal, everyday occurence, even in Planetos, and Jon is definitely not your average Joe; he's effectively become an UnDead, and this will surely have as yet unknown implications for his character, (and, possibly, his longevity - maybe he's only back for a particular purpose and has to die once this goal has been achieved; kind of like an inbuilt expiry date).

Granted, he appears to be a fully functioning man on the show, so a 'romance' or at least an alliance might be feasible in showverse. If that is indeed the case, then an alliance with Sansa is certainly not off-limits, in view of the normalcy of inter-cousin marriage (presuming Ned is not his father). However, I think there are potential ramifications from his resurrection to come on the show too. It is almost eery how he has recovered so rapidly from being DEAD; the impact of this incredible experience has been scarily minimised so far, to the point where I'm beginning to think that this is a deliberate ploy, to maximise future dramatic effect further down the line.

[Zorral]

The entire point of such marriages is the production of heirs.  Jon Snow as having died, if he can have sex at all, surely fires only blanks.

 

[Lord_Ravenstone]

3 hours ago, Zorral said:

The entire point of such marriages is the production of heirs.  Jon Snow as having died, if he can have sex at all, surely fires only blanks.

 

This isn't really proven at all

Dont think of his reproduction capability in terms of biology 

He's a magic being at this point 

[Myself656]

10 hours ago, Zorral said:

The entire point of such marriages is the production of heirs.  Jon Snow as having died, if he can have sex at all, surely fires only blanks.

I don't think we have any evidence that resurrection works that way.

He's not a vampire or walking corpse. Biologically, he's eating and drinking and the wound on his face is healing so there's clearly biological activity going on in his body and the production of sperm is just another biological activity.

I see no reason to think that the magic did anything more than jump-start him and that he does not need magic to remain alive at this point any more than a person brought by back by CPR would need ongoing CPR in order to survive.

Short version: there's absolutely no reason to believe Jon would be shooting blanks.

[Zorral]

"Each time I return I've lost a part of myself . . . . "

[Myself656]

16 hours ago, Zorral said:

"Each time I return I've lost a part of myself . . . . "

Pretty sure Berric wasn't talking about his junk falling off. I think Jon will be fine in the having offspring department.

Frankly, I think there's an easier explanation for the lines about coming back "less" and that's just the plain old PTSD Jon's been showing clear signs of since his resurrection (Sansa is showing signs too for that matter). I've read stories of people being worn down by long term torture and what is suffering repeated brutal and violent assaults only to be brought back again and again if not a form of torture?

[Kristy Asao]

Ewwwww there's total ick with this "topic". No. They can't be together. Now Jon and Arya I can see. Possible, however remote, romancing. I agree with those that say this (Jon, Arya).

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

2 hours ago, Kristy Asao said:

Ewwwww there's total ick with this "topic". No. They can't be together. Now Jon and Arya I can see. Possible, however remote, romancing. I agree with those that say this (Jon, Arya).

I don't get the argument that Jon/Sansa falls under the "ick" category while Jon/Arya doesn't. 

I think there's a specific reason that the sibling bond between Jon and Sansa has been downplayed. 

I'm also positive that Ghost and Nymeria will mate (at least in the books) and that there's a reason we were told that Nymeria doesn't allow common wolves to mate with her.

I also think it's strange that people don't think that Jon will have another love interest or that he somehow won't be able to father children when there isn't anythingto indicate that. 

No way is Val a factor (as far as being a love interest for Jon) either at this point or she would have been introduced on the show. This is right up there with me being completely bewildered when so many people still think that Stannis will live past TWoW or Faegon will win the Iron Throne in the end. 

[Elisabetta Duò]

I hope not, that would be clichè as hell, the young handsome Targ heir marrying the red haired beauty who once called him bastard all out of love *nope*

[Winter's Cold]

I like Jon/Arya mainly because of how icky and non-cliche it has the potential to be. There's an intense sibling bond turned incestuous. There's a heroic main character involved in a relationship with an underage girl. There might even be bestiality and even more incest involved due to Jon and Arya's status as wargs along with the relationship between Ghost and Nymeria. It's a relationship that definitely makes a lot of people uncomfortable.

[Wilnova]

48 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

I like Jon/Arya mainly because of how icky and non-cliche it has the potential to be. There's an intense sibling bond turned incestuous. There's a heroic main character involved in a relationship with an underage girl. There might even be bestiality and even more incest involved due to Jon and Arya's status as wargs along with the relationship between Ghost and Nymeria. It's a relationship that definitely makes a lot of people uncomfortable.

 Yes, this. Both Jon/Arya and Jon/Sansa have the potential to be icky, but Jon/Arya would be interesting as opposed to Jon/Sansa being bland. Which was why GRRM mentioned that both characters were 'tortured' by their passion for each other in the original outline. It's not supposed to be easy. Jon and Sansa are indifferent to each other and there is no story to be told or no stakes involved if they get together.

Anyways, after the most recent episode, I think Sansa is doomed. I don't see her surviving the last book or the show for that matter. Her story is totally diverted from the book version, but I think in both versions, she will end up underestimating LF.

At this point, it's a toss up between Jon/Dany and Jon/Arya. There is strong foreshadowing for both. I think Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Arya and Bran are more or less following their book arcs. I think they will stick to book endings for these characters.

[Myself656]

1 hour ago, Wilnova said:

Anyways, after the most recent episode, I think Sansa is doomed. I don't see her surviving the last book or the show for that matter. Her story is totally diverted from the book version, but I think in both versions, she will end up underestimating LF.

Really? Because I had the opposite impression; that Littlefinger is doomed because he's underestimated Sansa. We even have a book prophecy backing that up that also suggests Winterfell as where Littlefinger's doom will come.

If so, then I do expect Sansa's path in the books leading to a reunion with Jon and return to Winterfell with Jon being made King in the North (via Robb's will in the books and popular assent of the other Northern lords on the show) with Sansa's support. Likely she will move North in the books with the Vale army (rather than ahead of it as in the show) and shortly after Winterfell is taken, she'll turn the tables on Littlefinger by backing Jon and Baelish's head will end up on a spike on the walls of Winterfell.

I think the main reasons Sansa's plot diverged were that A) her Vale arc was just a parking spot for her until GRRM was ready to move the story forward again so D&D felt fine leaving that out. B ) D&D wanted to do Jeyne Poole without actually having Jeyne Poole and C) Moving Sansa into Jeyne Poole's story gave them a way to get Sansa up to Jon faster than she would in the books, because a television show needs more time to set up a relationship that will be satisfying to the audience than a novel written in GRRM's style would require.

Because the whole "Ooh, Sansa lied about the source of her information" thing reads like a Screenwriting 101 romantic couple obstacle. The sort of thing that will be overcome by learning to trust each other more and be reversed before any real damage is done. Sansa will end up siding with Jon instead of Littlefinger (by making Jon king at the expense of her own claim) and unlike Cat, who begged that Baelish be spared, Sansa will expose Littlefinger's treachery and let Jon finish him off once and for all. Then Bran will show up with the news that Jon is actually Lyanna and Rhaegar's son and the groundwork is firmly laid for the new House Stark of Ned/Cat 2.0.

The reason why I think it will also happen in the books is because when you really boil down Jon and Sansa's respective happy endings they really are the same ending. Every other female PoV in the story is an Action Girl to some extent or another and while he has fantasized about Val in the books, Jon's actual vision of married life only focuses on Val as a mother figure, not as some warrior princess. Jon's happy ending is to become the new Ned in a Winterfell filled with children named for his dead family members. Sansa's happy ending was to be a Queen (or at least the Lady of a noble house) and be mother to children named for her dead family members.

Yet neither of them would have ever guessed that Jon was going to be the Prince in that particular fairy tale... nor how messed up and horrible the actual events behind those stories actually were. I bet neither of them will even remember what they'd dreamt of as kids after everything they've each gone through. It's probably going to be enough that they've found someone who isn't intent on using them for some scheme or another and just wants to settle down and have kids without people trying to kill them.

But then that would be great irony of the story of Jon and Sansa. They started out as the ones who most believed the stories about knights and princesses. Then they lived through one. If they could see the stories and songs that will be written about THEM a few generations down the line they'd probably not be able to stop laughing... or crying... over the ridiculousness of the whitewashed tales.

That's exactly the sort of wonderful subversion of expectations (everything they wanted in the worst possible way) that I see in the other aspects of GRRM's storytelling (the other subversion I see being that Dany is actually a villain protagonist with a sympathetic POV). Its a twist I find even stronger than the theoretical Jon/Arya match-up precisely because Jon and Arya ARE on each other's radars (even if not romantically) whereas Jon/Sansa literally do not see it coming.

I think in the end Jon/Arya will be something akin to Kevin/Winnie on the "Wonder Years." Its something that could have possibly been, but then Arya was gone on her side-quest of vengeance while Jon and Sansa's stories moved on and merged. As a result Sansa will be there when Jon needs her to be and Arya will not. The bittersweet ending I see for Jon/Arya is that by the time Arya comes back into Jon's life, he'll already be with Sansa and while Arya will be happy for them because she loves them both, it will be tinged by the sadness of what might have been if only she'd been there.

[Winter's Cold]

Romantic couples lie to each other about crucial military information? This might be excusable if Jon and Sansa were on enemy sides like Jon and Ygritte. However, they are family members who share the same goal, thus there is no good reason for Sansa to deceive him. Sansa plainly distrusts Jon and is manipulating him to gain revenge on the Boltons. She advocates for him as King of the North because she wants to mimic Littlefinger's style. Instead of actually being the power on the throne, she wants to be the power behind the throne. She views herself as Littlefinger and Jon as Sweetrobin. 

Also where are you getting Jon's happy ending from? I thought that what he really wanted was to save Arya. 

[Joan Jett]

3 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

I like Jon/Arya mainly because of how icky and non-cliche it has the potential to be. There's an intense sibling bond turned incestuous. There's a heroic main character involved in a relationship with an underage girl. There might even be bestiality and even more incest involved due to Jon and Arya's status as wargs along with the relationship between Ghost and Nymeria. It's a relationship that definitely makes a lot of people uncomfortable.

Agree. That's not what I love most about the pairing, but it's definitely unique. Even though Arya was originally supposed to be 16ish when reuniting with Jon bc of the 5 year gap, I think this unexpected  change will actually makes things more interesting, at least for GRRM to write. He has dabbled in stuff like this before, like the mentioned "child-women" and the sexualization of young girls in his other works. Besides that there's a lot of evidence that they're still ending up together, interviews and book quotes combined. 

[Mehmet Eren]

Very Possible altrough If Jon will have love interest this must Val in the show there is no Val so show can go Sansa and Jon love story but In the Book I hope it will be Val she is perpect women for Jon I dont like the idea Jon ending up with Dany and Sansa Even jon is stark in my eye and he has blood of dragon in him in his core I believe he is Northman and moreso Wilding because of this My choose will be Val

[Darksky]

Val aka Ygritte 2.0 aka GOT's Pocahontas? That'd be boring imo.

 

 

[GhostNymeria]

5 hours ago, Myself656 said:

I think in the end Jon/Arya will be something akin to Kevin/Winnie on the "Wonder Years." Its something that could have possibly been, but then Arya was gone on her side-quest of vengeance while Jon and Sansa's stories moved on and merged. As a result Sansa will be there when Jon needs her to be and Arya will not. The bittersweet ending I see for Jon/Arya is that by the time Arya comes back into Jon's life, he'll already be with Sansa and while Arya will be happy for them because she loves them both, it will be tinged by the sadness of what might have been if only she'd been there.

What makes you think book Sansa will reach Jon and Winterfell before Arya? There are boats in Braavos you know. And what about Harry the Heir and Sweetrobin? Why are you so sure Sansa's arc will move on faster than Arya's. And based how prominent of a character Arya still is in the books (GRRM have given her way more POVs than Sansa), coupled with GRRM's comments on Nymeria's wolfpack, basically comfirms that Arya still has a big role to play in the war of the dawn along with Jon and Bran, like in the original outline. She's not going to do that by being on revenge mission for the rest of the story. I'm not saying Sansa doesn't have a role play in the endgame, I think she will, but she doesn't have to take over Arya's role to do that.

[Arya Targaryen]

I think that in the show, the fact that Sansa and Jon are reunited before Jon/Arya, can be viewed as a indication that Sansa/Jon won't happen. True, they never had a real brother/sister connection, but right now they are developing that, as they still think they are brother/sister. And Jon definitely won't learn R+L before ep 10, and even then I think it will revealed only to the viewers (and Bran), but not to Jon.

But he may learn it next season, and, I think, before he meets Arya. So by that time they will know they are just cousins, and they (Arya and Jon) have both changed a lot, so they definitely need to start to get known each other again (Ghost/Nymeria might help as well). Knowing they are just cousins, any romantic feelings between them won't need to be supressed.

And Arya is so much more Jon's type than Sansa.

[Myself656]

9 hours ago, GhostNymeria said:

What makes you think book Sansa will reach Jon and Winterfell before Arya?

Because the showrunners know the endgame and we don't. If there was going to be a romantic relationship for Jon and Ayra, they wouldn't have been dragging her through a boring holding pattern of a story in Braavos this season and gotten her eyesight back and out of the Faceless Men and headed back to Westeros inside of the first two episodes so she could make it to Castle Black in time to meet Jon before Sansa got there.

Instead Arya is stuck in a slow-motion plot on another continent and based on the episode titles won't even leave Braavos until 608 (and only make it to the Riverlands in 610). She's more likely to reconnect with the Hound this season than with any member of her family.

That wouldn't be happening if Arya's relationship with Jon was going to have any importance to the endgame because once this season ends we're down to just over a dozen episodes left in the entire series.

By contrast, Jon and Sansa have reunited and teamed up against the Boltons to make Jon King in the North. The latter bit is relevant because its a sign that despite the detours, the show is still more or less on track in terms of character paths. Jon will still be King in the North and based off of spoilers it will be Sansa who pushes for this after bringing the Vale army to aid in the battle.

In the books it will be Robb's will that makes Jon king and Sansa's plots won't amount to much until she rallies the Vale to aid the effort to retake her home... but both of those plots converge at Winterfell and will do so in the next book. The show just moved some things around to give Jon and Sansa more time to actually interact with each other, because it takes longer to set up a romance the audience will find acceptable on screen than it does in the story format GRRM has been using for the novels.

Watching where the showrunners put their focus is a good measure of how important things will actually turn out to be in the novels because they can't waste their time on stories that ultimately go nowhere (I'm looking at you, Quentyn) and they have put more focus on certain things like romantic relationships to make them satisfying to general audiences.

If Jon/Arya were important to the endgame we'd have seen some movement towards it on the show and we just haven't. Dany wouldn't be languishing over in Meereen since forever if the showrunners knew Jon/Dany was an endgame they'd have to sell. General audiences need the SHOW and not the TELL to go away satisfied and we're running out of time to show much of anything if its going to be anything other than Jon/Sansa.