Are new(post storm) major characters a waste of time?

[Quarinius]

Completely disagree with regards to Oberyn. He needed to enter a trial by combat on Tyrion's behalf, and he needed to lose. GRRM obviously wanted Tyrion to be found guilty, but survive and make it towards Daenerys, so Tyrion couldn't win the trial, couldn't get a pardon to the Wall, and couldn't die. Having Oberyn lose the trial assures Tyrion's guilt (legally, not truthfully), whilst the subsequent escape that is necessitated assures his survival. True, Tyrion could have been found guilty and then rescued, but I don't think Jaime would have saved him from the Wall as he would save him from death.

 

Oberyn is also, unlike Quentyn, interesting.

[Ser Eric]

Completely disagree with regards to Oberyn. He needed to enter a trial by combat on Tyrion's behalf, and he needed to lose. GRRM obviously wanted Tyrion to be found guilty, but survive and make it towards Daenerys, so Tyrion couldn't win the trial, couldn't get a pardon to the Wall, and couldn't die. Having Oberyn lose the trial assures Tyrion's guilt (legally, not truthfully), whilst the subsequent escape that is necessitated assures his survival. True, Tyrion could have been found guilty and then rescued, but I don't think Jaime would have saved him from the Wall as he would save him from death.

 

Oberyn is also, unlike Quentyn, interesting.

 

He didn't need to do anything of the sort. The champion was Gregor and everyone would have lost to him. You could have had just about anyone stand in for Oberyn or hell, you could have had no one standing for Tyrion (because no one wants to face Gregor) only for Jaime to help him escape from an inevitable death. Tywin dies and Tyrion ends up on a boat to Essos no matter what. Jaime would have helped him either way because he was ridden with guilt.

 

The bit in bold is obviously entirely subjective. There may be many people who find the tragic innocence of Quentyn more palpable than the woman beating Oberyn.
 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

 

I beg to differ.

 

Quentyn has already done for more for the plot than Oberyn did. He's freed the dragons on Meeren.

 

Dorne did not enter the war because Oberyn died. In fact they still haven't and all their plans (Arianne to Aegon, Quentyn to Dany) all go through even without Oberyn's death. Remove Oberyn from the 3rd book and nothing changes. Jaime still frees Tyrion and Tywin still dies. He killed one person who's been resurrected anyway so even that hasn't made a difference. From a plot perspective, Oberyn is the very definition of useless.

 

If people want to remove all the emotion from reading the books and focus solely on the plot, then Quentyn > Oberyn. People moaning about Sam or Brienne must have been reading the first 3 books with their eyes closed. There are plenty of chapters from the likes of Arya/Bran/Catelyn/Sansa/Tyrion where absolutely nothing happens and there is zero progression of plot. The irony being, most people moaning about the something not impacting the 'plot' have no idea where the plot is actually going. Even with that, you'd have to be daft to think Sam's chapters have nothing to with the plot.

 

 

Of course, that's not how it works. Oberyn was a fantastic character and regardless of whether he influenced the plot or not and the books would have been poorer for him not being in it. I don't like Quentyn as much but his chapters are still enjoyable. In fact there are a lot parallels with Oberyn come to think of it. He's the ant-Oberyn in many ways and yet they both have deep underlying issues and both die trying to do their duty.

 

 

The Jaime chapters in the Feast are some of the best written chapters in the series. I feel sorry for people who read through them and then have a moan about how it didn't impact the plot.

 

Yeah, you have a point.

 

And I remember there is one chapter of Sansa simply daydreaming while being fit a dress. Heh.

 

I agree about Jaime's chapters. They're pretty much all introspection and it's not boring. He has an interesting mind.

[Guess who's back]

I think that grrm pretty much alienated many of the readers by giving us POVs of new characters that have never been seen before and rarely if ever mentioned and it all happens in unseen locations. That's the problem I had and that is the reason I disliked almost everything in Dorne and Iron Islands. Those chapters were too separated from the story for me to enjoy them. I get that it is all part of the world building but sadly I don't care about the world if we already partly know the endgame and the new characters are mostly there to just die.

[Cas Stark]

I think that grrm pretty much alienated many of the readers by giving us POVs of new characters that have never been seen before and rarely if ever mentioned and it all happens in unseen locations. That's the problem I had and that is the reason I disliked almost everything in Dorne and Iron Islands. Those chapters were too separated from the story for me to enjoy them. I get that it is all part of the world building but sadly I don't care about the world if we already partly know the endgame and the new characters are mostly there to just die.

 

Yeah.  I found the Iron Islands were interesting, but too much of a tangent.  I just don't like Dorne or the Dorne chapters.

 

And the proliferation of POVs was a negative, it led to the novels having a much more slapdash feel, that you're not reading a novel but a collection of related short stories.

[HoodedCrow]

Whether they are engaging to any particular reader or not, there are many chapters that do make points.

The dragons are wild and not biddable or easy to train. Showing up with a drop of Targ blood is not enough. Dany was conscientious in locking up her babies.

A good reason for Dorne, or at least Arianne, to side against Dany.

How difficult it is to actually rule. How tedious a lot of the ritual is. How conscientious Dany is and how seriously she took he marriage, not at all marrying the guy she was infatuated with. Daario shows a normal romantic heart throb for a sixteen year old, rather than a cold blooded alliance. How difficult dealing with guerrilla warfare is. How rulers have to make deep compromises. How silly it would be to expect instant perfect leadership from a charismatic but young character without good advice, we are trained by fantasy novels not to consider the hard part.

It will probably show how characters with good intentions will suffer from negative pr.

We saw how the mercenary companies functioned, and that they were a mixed bag of characters.

We saw JonCons weak areas, and motivations.

We can wonder if Aegon will be the good king that he was raised to be, whether or not he is real. Does it matter to the population, really?

We saw Tyrions descent into reactive poor behavior and how scarred he is. Penny is something like Tysha would have been,. He gets his wish of being loved for himself and he doesn't respond romantically. Tyrion does get a lot of jousting, animal care and trick riding experience. He does negotiate often, and is still cocky.

Dany shows sacrifice, concern for people and rescuing tendencies. She is acquiring armies and possibly a fleet and has a nuke.

Brienne sticks with her investigations and sticks with her task. There is no instant gratification in most detective work, or long quests.

There is not much glory for the average dude,or dudette in war, a great deal more suffering in the game of thrones than is advertised and Septon Meribald shows you a good guy trying to give comfort in a ransacked world.

Revenge is not a pretty picture.

Redeeming oneself,as Jaime wishes to, is a long process, and may be impossible to do in most people's eyes.

Some of the best commanders are not good people,mor must make brutal decisions. Barristan is a warrior not a great politician. He has a great rep but has made serious mistakes.

I suppose this needs another thread or two!

[falcotron]

He has admitted the problem was he made them too young to start with (though I doubt Rickon will be doing that much regardless, even with the gap he would only be 10 and would be even more feral).

As I said, the gap wasn't a very good solution to the problem--it was way too drastic, and at the same time insufficient. Which is presumably why he abandoned it.

If he had a time machine (or if he'd been plotting the whole series in his basement before releasing the first book), he could make changes to resolve the problem--starting with aging up the children, getting Dany the experience she needs a lot faster, fitting the devastation of the continent into a year of warfare instead of a decade, etc. But as far as I know, he has no time machine.

But the problems are still there. You can point out problems that he'd have to overcome with all of the options, but that doesn't change the fact that he has to pick one or more of those options and make them work. I think he'll probably be able to do so, but obviously I can't guarantee that, I can just wait optimistically to read it and see.

[Lord Ravenstark]

"Everyone you met after you are 20 is useless and waste of time." I can only quote that.

Adding more characters gives a sense of progression, as in you are not stuck with a cast and all revolves around these few people.

[Northbound3.0]

No, of course. Storm was the closing to the first act, of the series. Feast, Dance and Winds will act as the opening  and middle for the for the second act, with Dream likely having the same pace and layout as Storm. Though, I do expect a really brisk pace in Winds. All, or I should say; most of the characters in Feast and Dance, will play vital roles to the outcome of the series.

[morgan1213]

No I don't think the characters introduced later in the books are irrelevant. Some of them I was not interested in, looking at you Dorne. I do think they're there for a reason.. Damphair, although I was bored reading his chapters. I loved Victarion though, don't know why. He has an awesome appearance in my head. I feel bad for Jon C. I hope he gets something he wants before dying and infecting Westetos with greyscale. I think it all pans out that we've waited so long between books. So, so long

[nyser1]

Of course, just like how anyone you meet in real life after you're 20 doesn't actually count as a person.

 

To he/she who actually folllows this: Time to leave the village.

[Nevets]

"Everyone you met after you are 20 is useless and waste of time." I can only quote that.

Adding more characters gives a sense of progression, as in you are not stuck with a cast and all revolves around these few people.

 

"Few people?"  To (mis)qoute Sir Hyle (a new character we got about the right amount of) 

 

Five would be a few.  14 (the number of major pov's) is a lot.  This is a cacophony.

 

There are already several dozen characters that can be considered "important", plus several hundred more minor ones. We're not only adding characters, but whole story lines to an already insanely (but wonderfully) complex story.  At some point, you have to say, "enough".  

 

Of course,my frustration may result from the fact that I have been unable to stay interested in the Dorne or Iron Islands subplots (or Daenerys, but that's another matter).

[Lord Ravenstark]

 
"Few people?"  To (mis)qoute Sir Hyle (a new character we got about the right amount of) 
 
Five would be a few.  14 (the number of major pov's) is a lot.  This is a cacophony.
 
There are already several dozen characters that can be considered "important", plus several hundred more minor ones. We're not only adding characters, but whole story lines to an already insanely (but wonderfully) complex story.  At some point, you have to say, "enough".  
 
Of course,my frustration may result from the fact that I have been unable to stay interested in the Dorne or Iron Islands subplots (or Daenerys, but that's another matter).

These may look much, but when you remember the continent-spanning war, possible world war, and war for life… these are few. If not that way, it would look like the world simply stops to spectate when two parties engage conflict, and only making moves when they are done.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

Simply put, no. No the new post-Storm characters and their character arcs are not a waste of time.

 

It's my humble opinion that the writing, characterization, and thematic significance of Feast/Dance, is some of the best work Martin has ever done. If you found it distracting and frustrating during your first read-through, I highly suggest reading the two books together. It makes Martin's themes much more clear, gives some great parallel character arcs, and always feels exciting since there are so many POVs. I recommend using Sean T. Collins model for merging the books.

 

If you want to talk specifics on characters, I think the Greyjoys are by far the most unfairly maligned.

 

First, how can anyone hate Asha's POV? She's awesome-sauce and by far the best of the iron born.  Aeron "Damphair" is so sassy and subtly snarky that reading his chapters are a riot. Victarion is one of the only clear cut villains that Martin gives us a POV for. Imagine being able to see how Joffrey or Roose thinks. Even better, Victarion is one of the dumb baddies, which means his chapters have a wealth of innuendo and depth that fly completely over his head.

 

And Euron is shaping up to be the dark lord of Westeros. Seriously, madeinmyr's essays on him will make you shiver.

 

As for the Dornish POVS, I think Martin is making a very clear case on why vengeance is futile. Doran wants revenge for the brutalization and murder of his family, but this commitment to vengeance is destroying his family.

Oberyn and Quentyn are dead, and more will die. The whole purpose of the Dornish is to illustrate how useless and tragic grudges and blood feuds are. It's the children who pay the price, as evidenced by Arianne's disastrous plot with Myrcella and by Quentyn's failed "adventure" that ends in "fire and blood." Those were the very things that Doran promised at the end of AFFC, and that's whats coming to Dorne.

 

I could go on and on, I have waaaay too much already, lol. But basically I highly encourage a re-read. There is some truly fantastic stuff in the Feast/Dance arc, and yes the characters are totally worth your time.

[JonSleet]

It's all about how the characters make you feel or think. Just off the top of my head I felt empathy for quentyn, I love to hate euron, victarion is my favourite character, the damphair gives us great insight in the the ironborns religion, and I'm hugely interested in the Aegon/Jon con storyline is really interesting, regardless or if Aegon is real or fake. This is an Epic fantasy and I think in the end well be happy for the incredibly long diverse and rich world the author created even if these tangents don't interest everyone, they serve a great story telling purpose none the less