TheLightning Lord

Winds update (not a blog)

472 posts in this topic

Absolutely. Rowling (as Martin has explicitly admitted) is also interesting as a directly comparable, contemporary example of how and how not to deal with an internet megafandom. Lemony Snicket, for example, is another (personally I find his (Daniel Handler's) approach the most endearing, though it hasn't pushed his world celebrity in the same way).

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I think a lot of you whiners are looking into this far too much. He missed some deadlines (not at all uncommon). Now you are throwing your hands up and claiming that his legacy is ruined? Grow up and stop the pouting. Grab some tissues before you drown in your tears. 

How is ASoIaF going to be ruined because it will be finished after the HBO adaptation? HBO adapted from HIS vision! If you are truly a fan of the book why would the HBO show even affect you? I get that there's going to be spoiler issues. But GRRM is going to release his story. Not HBO's. He told HBO how it was going down. They filled in the blanks with tits and violence. 

I had already watched seasons 1 and 2 before I started the books. So, I pretty much knew how things were going to go down. That didn't diminish the value of the story in the slightest bit. As I kept reading and watching it was clear that the two series were growing further and further apart. The two will be virtually unrelated before long. And to be honest, after last season it pretty much already is. 

He recently posted in his blog (as I'm sure you've already seen) about how thankful he was for the outpouring of support he was getting from fans regarding his delays. Christ, I hope he doesn't come to this thread and read everyone's incessant whining. How could any author get motivated after something like this?

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Most of us knew it anyway but the party is well and truly over.

I've met a lot of GRRM types in my professional career.  They are great at starting something but need others to help them finish otherwise they end up starting several projects and finishing none of them.  Then when the pressure is on they flounder even more and don't deliver at all.

I know it is macabre and I know it's disrespectful to the author.  But he is never going to finish these books.  He has created a vast monster he is unable to tame.  Let's be honest he is procrastinating.  He has done so since 2001.  The last two books were nowhere near of the same quality as the first three and took ages to write.  This was before the distraction of fame.  He is lost.  And these books will never be finished.

If he can't write at pace in his 50's and 60's then there is no chance he can write at pace in his 70's or 80's and there is every possibility that he won't make it that far anyway or, as is common in older people (especially those pushing themselves too hard), he will have health complications that will stop him being able to write the book even if his mind is still sharp.

Watch the show guys.  It's the only closure you're going to get on this story unless GRRM relaxes his rule of allowing someone else to finish the novels should he be unable to do so.  And I believe he should do so.  GRRM is not our bitch, but we are not his either.  The moment he decided to share the world it became part of the public domain.  It's no longer just his and he is being an arrogant **** to those of us who have invested 20ish years and money on this journey only for him to say if he dies the books won't be finished.

He brought all of this on himself.  Hand the writing over George.  And do it whilst you're alive.  Because you aren't going to finish.  You probably won't even finish TWOW.

Agree with everything you say. 

On another note the quoting mechanism on this site is dreadful, bloody hell.

Edited by StarkStan

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I think this nails it. Rowling got world-building exactly right by having it serve the plot rather than vice versa. And the only reason we care about Tolkien's world-building is because LotR was a magnificent epic.

Rowling's world-building is far skimpier than Martin's. And Martin is a much better writer, IMHO (I'm not saying that Rowling is a bad writer, either).

Tolkien took 15 years to write LOTR, which is a quarter of the length of what Martin's published so far, so good writing takes time.

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How is ASoIaF going to be ruined because it will be finished after the HBO adaptation?

I agree that "ruined" is melodramatic.  But I think it's fair to say it's been compromised by the lower quality of the recent books and will be further compromised by the likely failure to complete the series.

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Rowling and Tolkien are both fiction writers who wrote very popular and influential fantasy novels. GRRM is also a fiction writer who wrote several very popular and influential fantasy novels. Unlike GRRM, however, they finished their most famous works before the adaptations. That's the main comparison.

In terms of how people categorise and respond, they're somewhat similar.  Yes, that does happen, but that's what I'm saying is odd.  In terms of what they actually produce, they're entirely different.  I just can't see how anyone can read Philosopher's Stone, Lord of the Rings and A Game of Thrones and think "Yeah, these are similar works."  

Absolutely. Rowling (as Martin has explicitly admitted) is also interesting as a directly comparable, contemporary example of how and how not to deal with an internet megafandom. Lemony Snicket, for example, is another (personally I find his (Daniel Handler's) approach the most endearing, though it hasn't pushed his world celebrity in the same way).

Two popular writers in an internet age so they're dealing with some of the same issues, yeah.  So for this announcement and whatnot it makes sense to bring her up.  But that wasn't what was going on in that particular discussion, which, as I was reading it, related to apparent similarities in the works.  

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Rowling's world-building is far skimpier than Martin's. And Martin is a much better writer, IMHO (I'm not saying that Rowling is a bad writer, either).

 

Tolkien took 15 years to write LOTR, which is a quarter of the length of what Martin's published so far, so good writing takes time.

 

 

Tolkien took 15 years to write LOTR but unlike GRRM, he wrote in his spare time when he wasn't teaching.

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Tolkien took 15 years to write LOTR but unlike GRRM, he wrote in his spare time when he wasn't teaching.

It also wasn't part of a series.  A sequel, yes, but The Hobbit was originally intended as a standalone title and is perfectly self-contained.  

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Rowling's world-building is far skimpier than Martin's. And Martin is a much better writer, IMHO (I'm not saying that Rowling is a bad writer, either).

 

Tolkien took 15 years to write LOTR, which is a quarter of the length of what Martin's published so far, so good writing takes time.

Twelve years. Also, the Professor had a full time job, while GRRM is a professional writer.

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Too bad for you, because the last 4 episodes of Season 5 were the best run of episodes the series has had so far.

Well the forums I frequent would disagree with you. Yes, the battle of Hardhome programme was good, and I did watch part of the battle on YouTube, but the general consensus was that the entire series was poor, badly written, and the ending infuriatingly pathetic, having been signalled with doom laden looks from someone who should be a minor character, for weeks.

Most people seemed to think that the entire series was a let down, and certainly I agreed for the first four episodes, which were very dull, and were heading in a direction which, not only did I not want to participate in, made no logical sense to the story either. Too many players doing stupid things totally outside their characters. Judging by what many forum members said about each episode after it aired, I think I made the right decision.

I will watch what people are saying on the forums next year, if it looks as though season 6 is worth watching, I'll renew my NowTV sub and start watching again, if it's rubbish, like the last series, I won't. I'll let the others do the watching and learn what happens to the story from their forum posts.

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Too bad for you, because the last 4 episodes of Season 5 were the best run of episodes the series has had so far.

...are you serious? The Burning of Shireen, Brienne straight up murdering an unarmed man, Tyrion's laughable introduction to Dany, Bad Pussy were some of the best the series had to offer? Really?

And I haven't even begun to mention the lionisation of Ramsey or how the death of the dogkeeper's daughter was portrayed as revenge for Sansa.

Season five was terrible and the idea that the same writers will be adapting tWoW makes me ill.

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Well the forums I frequent would disagree with you. Yes, the battle of Hardhome programme was good, and I did watch part of the battle on YouTube, but the general consensus was that the entire series was poor, badly written, and the ending infuriatingly pathetic, having been signalled with doom laden looks from someone who should be a minor character, for weeks.

Most people seemed to think that the entire series was a let down, and certainly I agreed for the first four episodes, which were very dull, and were heading in a direction which, not only did I not want to participate in, made no logical sense to the story either. Too many players doing stupid things totally outside their characters. Judging by what many forum members said about each episode after it aired, I think I made the right decision.

I will watch what people are saying on the forums next year, if it looks as though season 6 is worth watching, I'll renew my NowTV sub and start watching again, if it's rubbish, like the last series, I won't. I'll let the others do the watching and learn what happens to the story from their forum posts.

Actually, those negative opinions are only popular on certain self-reinforcing forums.  They certainly don't reflect popular or critical opinion.  "Most people" is an illusion.  But it's fine.  Everyone sees things differently.  Sorry you couldn't enjoy it like I did. 

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Well the forums I frequent would disagree with you. Yes, the battle of Hardhome programme was good, and I did watch part of the battle on YouTube, but the general consensus was that the entire series was poor, badly written, and the ending infuriatingly pathetic, having been signalled with doom laden looks from someone who should be a minor character, for weeks.

Most people seemed to think that the entire series was a let down, and certainly I agreed for the first four episodes, which were very dull, and were heading in a direction which, not only did I not want to participate in, made no logical sense to the story either. Too many players doing stupid things totally outside their characters. Judging by what many forum members said about each episode after it aired, I think I made the right decision.

I will watch what people are saying on the forums next year, if it looks as though season 6 is worth watching, I'll renew my NowTV sub and start watching again, if it's rubbish, like the last series, I won't. I'll let the others do the watching and learn what happens to the story from their forum posts.

If by general consensus you mean 5 people who regurgitate the same posts every few minutes then yes.

On the other hand, this season won an Emmy for best drama, on IMDb the highest rated episode of the show is from this season, it has a 91/100 on Metacritic, and going by ratings it is the most watched season of the show. So if we're talking about consensus between audiences, critics, and award shows, then this season has been received with universal acclaim.

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Actually, those negative opinions are only popular on certain self-reinforcing forums.  They certainly don't reflect popular or critical opinion.  "Most people" is an illusion.  But it's fine.  Everyone sees things differently.  Sorry you couldn't enjoy it like I did. 

I think there must be something terribly wrong when violent rape and the burning alive of a little girl is accepted as 'entertainment', not to mention all the illogical events that had 'shock' value and yet more pointless killing off of main characters that aren't dead in the books.

I made my own mind up taking into account what several forums members thought, and reading the precis of each episode on this site.  There were a lot of story lines I simply didn't want to see, which made no literary sense, and were clearly only there for some warped S&M shock value.

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I think there must be something terribly wrong when violent rape and the burning alive of a little girl is accepted as 'entertainment', not to mention all the illogical events that had 'shock' value and yet more pointless killing off of main characters that aren't dead in the books.

I made my own mind up taking into account what several forums members thought, and reading the precis of each episode on this site.  There were a lot of story lines I simply didn't want to see, which made no literary sense, and were clearly only there for some warped S&M shock value.

ADWD had violent rape and bestiality. Horrible events are just the norm for Martin's universe.

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sWhy are people even comparing Rowling to Martin?  They write nothing that's even remotely similar.  

Tolkien's works are appreciated by those who enjoy the classics and the myths of other cultures and the way he engaged with them.  As far as I'm concerned, The Silmarillion is his greatest creation, uncompleted (necessarily) as it was.  But again, he has next to nothing in common with Martin.

Try comparing his world with the Malazan Empire world then, that Steven Erikson created with Ian Campbell Esslemont. That's much much larger than Westeros by far, and yet he's managed to turn out TEN books, the shortest of which is over 600 pages, most being between 800-1000 pages long, the longest being 1230, since the series started in 1999, with the maximum length of time between books being two years. That particular series is now complete. Campbell Esslemont also started writing and has turned out another 6 books  since 2007.

I'm afraid the work rate of GRRM doesn't compare, even to writers that are working on a world far more complex than his.

 

 

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I think there must be something terribly wrong when violent rape and the burning alive of a little girl is accepted as 'entertainment', not to mention all the illogical events that had 'shock' value and yet more pointless killing off of main characters that aren't dead in the books.

I made my own mind up taking into account what several forums members thought, and reading the precis of each episode on this site.  There were a lot of story lines I simply didn't want to see, which made no literary sense, and were clearly only there for some warped S&M shock value.

I have a friend, who didn't read the books, and she said that the most disgusting scene she saw on television was Cersei's walk, and it shamed her as a jew and as a woman to see this scene. But for a lot of book readers that scene is fine I guess, so let's not be hypocrites about one scene that hasn't happened in the books and one that has.

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ASOIAF is escape literature but let's not bringing it down to HP level FFS. 

As long as ASOIAF isn't brought up to LOTR level.

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