Why did Gregor Clegane kill Hugh of the Vale?

[Protagoras]

Why do bears shit in the woods? Why does the sun rise? Why is the grass green? Why do we need to breathe air?

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Huh. I have a totally different view on why and when Hugh was killed. 

We know that Jon Arryn, along with Stannis, was trying to build a case to take before Robert, exposing Cersei's incest/adultery and her children's true father. I believe LF went ahead and had Lysa kill Jon then, because (as he admits to Sansa) he's not ready for Cersei to be removed from the game yet. 

Then here comes Ned, picking up almost right where Stannis and Jon left off, inquiring into Jon's activities before his death; and he's already very close to the truth about Cersei's treason. 

Hugh was one of the four people remaining in KL, whom Ned had tried to talk to about Jon. Hugh had been rude and cocky, saying that he would only speak to the Hand himself, not some underling. 

It's possible that Hugh had information about Arryn's poisoning, but I think it's far more likely he knew something about the parentage of the royal children. As Jon's squire, he would have been with him almost constantly. From Cersei and LF's views, if there's even a chance he knows anything, then he's got to go, but another "whoops, got sick and died while everyone around him was healthy" could cause problems. 

As to who arranged his death, there are three possibilities. Cersei would have been in a position to order it done by Gregor. LF would have been in a position to bribe it done. Or, as some have suggested, neither of them might have gotten around to it yet, and it might have been a case of "because it seemed like a good idea at the time."

In any case, I think he was killed to prevent him meeting Ned. I doubt anyone, least of all LF, would have come up with a poisoning plan for Jon Arryn that included anyone but himself and Lysa. "Always make sure your own hands are clean."

[Young Nan]

Even though it was Lysa who did the deed, it was a happy accident for Cersei when Arryn died, and to be honest she probably would have had him killed but Lysa beat her to it.  

Cersei thought it was case closed after Jon Arryn died, but then Ned picked up where he left off, and she couldn't have him expose her so she would have ordered Gregor to make sure he didn't survive the tourney.   

[leonardof]

Thanks for the input! Gregor could be just acting spontaneously AND Petyr could be messing with the lists to feed Ned's suspicions on the Lannisters.

One last possibility is that Hugh knew or suspected Pycelle withdrew treatment from Jon Arryn. That is probably the only reason the Lannisters could order Hugh killed for. But I like the Littlefinger thesis best, as it is more elegant and fits a wider evidence base.

[7-KG]

Because Gregor Clegane is a sadistic psycho?

[Angel Eyes]

On 2/24/2016 at 7:29 PM, leonardof said:

In A Game of Thrones, Ser Hugh of the Vale is killed by Ser Gregor Clegane during the Hand's tourney, just before Ned Stark can talk to him about the manner of Jon Arryn's death. Later, Gregor's brother Sandor Clegane tells Sansa Stark that the killing wasn't an accident; Gregor always put the lance where he wants to. Because Lysa Arryn's letter to her sister Catelyn Stark had accused the Lannisters of killing her husband Jon, and the Cleganes are sworn to the Lannisters, we believe Ser Gregor Clegane killed Ser Hugh of the Vale as a means of stopping Ned Stark from finding out evidence of involvement of the Lannisters in Jon Arryn's death.

Later, in A Clash of Kings, Grand Maester Pycelle admits to Tyrion having withheld treatment from Jon Arryn, believing Cersei Lannister wanted him dead, and agrees with Vary's story about Ser Hugh of the Vale poisoning Jon Arryn. Then, in A Storm of Swords, Lysa tells Sansa that she had been convinced by Petyr to poison her husband. As of A Dance with Dragons, we have little reason to doubt these last versions.

If Lysa Arryn poisoned Jon Arryn, possibly via then-squire Hugh of the Vale, why did Gregor Clegane kill Ser Hugh of the Vale during the Hand's tourney? In So Spake Martin, the author leaves this as an unanswered question.

My answer: Because he wanted to. No agenda, just because he felt like it. Just like picking the prisoners at Harrenhal: 

"Okay, I've decided I'll kill you today."

And at Harrenhal: 

"Okay, you get to kick the bucket with rats today." 

[snow is the man]

On 2/24/2016 at 10:58 PM, Good Guy Garlan said:

It's super convoluted, but maybe Cersei and Pycelle both suspected each other of poisoning Jon Arryn through Ser Hugh?

I can see this

[snow is the man]

Wasn't it vary's who told ned stark that it was the squire who killed jon aryn. Ned stark would have believed it and his hatred of the lannisters would be increased. By doing this vary's seriously weakened the kingdom and created division all around. The riverlands are essentially scorched earth and with so little food stored half of the remaining people would die and the people who did the majority of the damage (not all but most) are in charge. The north hates the lannisters who are on the iron throne. That was all done by vary's helping make the lannisters and the north go to war. Granted catelyn stark was the one who set the spark but if ned had not been sure that the lannisters had killed jon aryn he would have likely been more inclined to make peace... or not be so against the idea of lannisters taking the throne.  Okay I went off on a rant but two "kingdoms" hate the people on the iron throne. Vary's played a part in that and thus made aegon's job easier

[snow is the man]

Also gregor was a complete pasycopath so why not kill someone who can't do anything about it or have anyone come back and try to get revenge for it

[Seams]

It's funny this thread should resurface today. I've been thinking about Ser Hugh and the Mountain, so I'll jot down some thoughts here instead of starting a new thread. These are half-baked ideas, but maybe this group can help to pin down the details.

The young knight in the blue cloak was nothing to her, some stranger from the Vale of Arryn whose name she had forgotten as soon as she heard it. And now the world would forget his name too, Sansa realized. There would be no songs sung for him. That was sad. (AGoT, Sansa II)

When I hear a character like young Sansa say that a person means nothing to her, I immediately assume there is literary irony at work and that character should mean something to her. What is GRRM hiding? Who is Ser Hugh, really? Why did Jon Arryn take him on as a squire?

Not long after Ser Gregor stabs Hugh in the throat, Sandor Clegane unhorses Renly Baratheon, causing part of a gold antler to snap off his helmet. Renly, ever the good sport, offers the tine to The Hound who does not want it and throws it into the crowd. A fight ensues, but Renly wades in and makes peace. It's not exactly the same thing as an antler snapping off and stabbing a mother direwolf in the throat, but here are these two images again - the stabbing in the throat and the broken antler. Could Ser Hugh have a direwolf or Stark connection? Are there any other characters we can think of who have been killed by a young Baratheon wearing a stag helmet?

The rejected "tine" from the helmet could be simple wordplay on "nite" (= knight). We learn later that Sandor Clegane has no respect for knights and does not want to be a knight. Tossing away the Baratheon tine could be a symbolic rejection of knighthood. This is an interesting contrast with Ser Hugh, who was anxious to become a knight but wasn't really ready, according to Ser Barristan in the next chapter. And it's entirely possible that the lance in the throat and the broken antler were unrelated, of course, and were not meant to evoke the death of the mother direwolf.

In the pale dawn light, the young knight looked as though he were sleeping. He had not been handsome, but death had soothed his rough-hewn features and the silent sisters had dressed him in his best velvet tunic, with a high collar to cover the ruin the lance had made of his throat. (AGoT, Eddard VII)

I haven't done a search on the word "rough," but I suspect it will be connected through wordplay to Hugor of the Hill, the first Andal king. And I suspect that Ser Hugh's name is intended to echo King Hugor. What could that mean? Does he symbolize the Andal origins? Does his death represent the end of the Andal era? Or, if we are in a mirror image of an historical event, does it mean that events are reversed, and the elimination of Hugh / Hugor means we are going back to the era of the First Men? In the next jousting rounds, we will see Ser Loras nearly killed by Gregor Clegane - he could represent Garth Greenhand, with his strong association with the green garden imagery of the Reach, so that is a good symbol of the First Men.

But what would Gregor Clegane represent? How about the era of giants during the Dawn Age? Giants and the CotF had Westeros to themselves before the arrival of the First Men, right? But then Sandor intervenes and prevents the Mountain that Rides from killing Ser Loras. Why is Sandor the one to stop Gregor? Aside from being his brother, what does he represent? In the same Sansa II chapter quoted above, she tells us that The Hound "seemed to take form out of the night" and he was "a voice from the night, a shadow." We don't have a creation myth for Westeros according to TWoIaF, but perhaps the Hound represents the mysterious void that existed before the Dawn Age and the era of the giants. This would support the idea that the tournament somehow represents the regression of history, with Ser Hugh's death marking the beginning of the Andal invasion.

What I haven't figured out is why GRRM would want to show the regression of Westeros history through this tournament, if that's what is going on here. There are other bouts I haven't included in this theory, of course. I suspect all Royce activity is significant, and we see Andar Royce lose to Jaime Lannister early in Sansa's description of the day's events, but Robar Royce beat Lothor Brune in a later match. They are pretty clearly first men, so why is Ser Loras in the final (representing the First Men, if this notion is correct) and not one of the Royces?

This reverse cycle of history may not be right at all. Hugor of the Hill was an important figure in the Faith of the Seven, with the Father crowning him with seven stars. What if the white moons on Hugor's cloak, turning red as his blood seeps into them, represent the seven stars? Is the symbolism in his death about the Red God overtaking the Faith of the Seven?

But wait, you are saying, what about @sweetsunray's excellent analysis of the conflict between Ser Gregor and Ser Hugh in this tournament as foreshadowing a potential earthquake or landslide at the Eyrie? I am a big fan of her theory (look for the "Sansa and the Giants" thread if you are not yet familiar with it). In a nutshell, the name of the mountain on which the Eyrie is built is The Giant's Lance. Ser Gregor is a giant, of sorts, and he uses his lance to kill Ser Hugh of the Vale. Drawing on a number of the details in the description of their jousting and of Ser Hugh's death, sweetsunray has predicted that an earthquake will cause a devastating avalanche, causing major death and mayhem at the Gates of the Moon.

Here's some further speculation about the symbolism around Ser Gregor and Ser Hugh of the Vale that I don't think has been covered in other threads: the Vale could be wordplay on "veil." The most notable veil in the books, in my opinion, is worn by the Green Grace - there is a different Green Grace at each Ghiscari temple of the Graces. In Meereen, the Green Grace advises Daenerys; in Astapor, the Green Grace predicts that the dead King Cleon will lead the city to victory in battle. His dead body does not bring luck to the army, however, and they lose badly.

Stop reading and leave this post forever if you hate wordplay, but I think Gregor Clegane and Green Grace are related through an anagram - there are letters left over, I admit (log?), and I'm not sure how those figure in to the comparison. The point could be that Gregor killing Ser Hugh represents the destruction of the Vale. The advice of the Green Grace of Meereen helps to bring about peace, but undermines Dany's sense of freedom (both wearing the tokar and marrying Hizdahr) and would destroy Dany's hopes of conquering Westeros (the Green Grace tries to persuade Ser Barristan to kill the dragons after Dany disappears).

Interestingly, the impalement and slow torture death of the Green Grace of Astapor is witnessed by Quentyn Martell. Who impales and helps to bring about the slow torture death of Gregor Clegane? Oberyn Martell. It seems far-fetched, but I think there is supposed to be some kind of parallel between the Green Graces and Ser Gregor. Of course, the Astapori Green Grace died because she recommended that people follow the leadership of a dead butcher king, strapped to a horse. Ser Robert Strong is a dead knight, who appears to be ready to engage in a trial by combat for Queen Cersei. Will he be more successful than King Cleon was? We will know more after we see Ser Robert Strong again in upcoming books.

But there's another veil connected to Ser Hugh.

"This was needless. War should not be a game." Ned turned to the woman beside the cart, shrouded in grey, face hidden but for her eyes. The silent sisters prepared men for the grave, and it was ill fortune to look on the face of death. (AGoT, Eddard VII)

A grey, silent sister. Wearing a veil (= shroud). Is this the only time we remember Ned speaking to a sister? His words to her are to send Hugh's armor to the Vale for his mother. Ostensibly, the armor is valuable so it is sort of a death benefit the mother could sell. Or maybe it is a keepsake, because Ser Hugh wanted to be a knight all his life and this represents the fulfillment of his dream. But a deeper layer of meaning could be intended to evoke a woman who wears armor. If the theories are correct about Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, the sending of armor to Hugh's mother - using a grey, shrouded sister as an emissary - could be some kind of symbolic conversation between Ned and Lyanna. Perhaps reinforcing the allusion, Ned begins this line with the word "needless," which might refer to the sword "needle," made at Jon Snow's request for Arya, the woman warrior who resembles Lyanna. "I will deal with this smith," are Ned's final words to the silent sister.

(By the way, Immediately before that excerpt saying that it's ill fortune to look on the face of death, we read, "Eddard Stark looked at his face, and wondered if it had been for his sake that the boy had died." Nice going, Ned. Bring ill fortune on yourself, how 'bout it. Or is this a "kill the boy and let the man be born" echo?)

One last thing about Ser Gregor. I think it's important to keep in mind the story of the knight marionette, relayed by the Hound in the same chapter in which Ser Hugh dies:

A woodcarver set up shop in the village under my father's keep, and to buy favor he sent us gifts. The old man made marvelous toys. I don't remember what I got, but it was Gregor's gift I wanted. A wooden knight, all painted up, every joint pegged separate and fixed with strings so you could make him fight. (AGoT, Sansa II)

What if this knight was bewitched or somehow magical? You could make him fight. Could Gregor have been skinchanged or glamoured through this wooden knight? Who was the old man? Did he really want to buy favor with the Cleganes, or had he been sent to them with this toy? I suspect it might be worth knowing what kind of toy Sandor got, although maybe giant Gregor was the only target for this mysterious old man, if the theory is correct. If so, it seems as if he was probably working for Tywin, who used Ser Gregor to do a lot of his dirty work.

At any rate, Gregor as a puppet knight might support the comments in this thread that indicate that he is a killing machine, and that he killed Ser Hugh because the opportunity presented itself.

On 2/25/2016 at 0:46 AM, The Mountain That Flies said:

Finally someone asks the right question. I don't know there is a standard of how long before a tourney lists are drawn up, but there's one man who would know where bribes need to go to make it happen. And by coincidence that person would greatly benefit from saying something suspicious about Hugh, then having him die to accelerate a conflict.

Littlefinger, you utterly clever bastard.

I happen to agree with this, which responded to the question posed by @Blackfyre Bastard. I suspect that Littlefinger is a descendant of Uthor Underleaf, who bribed tourney officials throughout Westeros. Littlefinger probably did the same thing to ensure that Ser Hugh would face Gregor the killing machine. But I suspect he had an additional layer of motivation in setting up Ser Hugh to die. I suspect that Littlefinger knows the paternity and/or materinity of this young man for whom no songs will be sung. He wanted that death to take place while someone in particular was watching. Was it Ned? Sansa? Jeyne Poole? Septa Mordane? King Robert? I don't think the person was aware just who Ser Hugh was, but I'm guessing we will find out later, perhaps at the next tournament when TWoW is published.

[Seams]

I forgot to note that Ser Hugh's sigil is a crescent moon. He is often referred to as a boy, especially with reference to his tragic death at such a young age.

Moon Boy, the court fool, takes the stage during the Sansa II chapter, at the dinner served after the first day of the tournament.

I suspect there is a symbolic connection between Ser Hugh and Moon Boy.

[Lion of the West]

Why did Gregor kill Ser Hugh? Why did he rape that girl in a tavern? He's Gregor Clegane and that's the kind of things that he does.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Because he could .

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Why did Oberyn Martell cripple Willas Tyrell?

[Walda]

It was Petyr Baelish. Baelish does everything. And blames Cersei (everyone wants to blame Cersei).

A poor squire like Hugh, suddenly honoured with a knighthood by the King himself. Who could organise that for him?

And once he has notice that he is to be so honoured, he will need a suit of armour to be knighted in. How can he afford it?

If there was an armourer in the city that happened to have a plain new suit of plate, sans niello design, sans blue jasper falcon, sans mother-of-pearl moon on the breast, that he felt was incriminating and desired to be rid of,  who would take it off his hands for a nice price? Or perhaps, for a concession on his loan arrangement?

Admittedly, that last could be any of the many antler-men in Kings Landing, and Tobho Mott was not identified as an antler-man. Also, Baelish was helpful to many Renly supporters before the tourney of the Hand - almost as if the tourney of the hand was a ruse to facilitate the rise of an army behind Renly.

Petyr Baelish helps a lot of knights in their quest to get what they want. He brought Loras Tyrell to King's Landing where he met Renly (I think Sansa was right that her red rose signalled something different to the other girl's white roses - just that the signal was to a different person and for a different purpose to the one she supposed).

I think he also facilitated the purchase of a high-spirited, bad-tempered stallion exactly suited to Ser Gregor's need and temperament. Clearly Gregor didn't know (as Hullen did) that a war horse was not the best tourney horse. And Gregor would no doubt suppose he would have the ready money to pay for it after the tourney, after he killed his brother. And Petyr would know that whether he did or he didn't, he would still be indebted to Petyr Baelish, and in need of another horse to ride away from Kings Landing on.

Thing is, the time between Gregor leaving King's Landing after the tourney of the Hand and the trouble at Sherrer is not enough for Gregor to have ridden to Clegane Keep, or Casterley Rock, or really, any further from King's Landing than Sherrer. If Tywin had ordered him to harry the riverlands, the order was given to him at Kings Landing, while Tywin was sitting at Casterley Rock. Or given to him in the Riverlands, while he was travelling from Kings Landing (ie: Not by raven - unless some of the riverlands houses are Lannister turncoats already, willing to receive messages from Casterley Rock and pass them on to Clegane when he arrives on their land).

But the chances are that that frisky horse had left him in debt to Petyr bloody Baelish, and banditry might have been a way to reconcile the debt before the matter came to his bannerlord's attention, either repaid by the monetary value of the plunder, or by the trouble it caused between Tully and Lannister. (Although I don't think Gregor is that calculating, and also, Honestly, looking at Edmure without any of Catelyn's sisterly affection, I could almost believe he was a Lannister plant, as determined to cross the Starks as any Frey could be. Except that would take a certain low cunning - I don't doubt the depths Edmure would sink to, but he, like Gregor, seems to lack the cunning.)

To paraphrase @Good Guy Garlan , it is complicated.

I don't know who Baleish was working for or with, but I do believe it was Petyr Baelish who set Ser Hugh (whose ser-name is no doubt significant in the Vale) up to be knighted by the king, and killed at the tourney. Like the other three members of Jon Arryn's household that Baelish gave Eddard access to, that is a huge favour he owed Baelish, and like all the people Baelish does favours for, he is easy to dispose of, seems almost to be paying for his own demise (as Eddard did, when he had Baelish buy the Gold Cloaks with Stark money. And as Tyrion and Cersei did, when they gave Baelish Lannister Gold to buy the chivalry of the South...although they have not yet learnt to repent their error).

Quote

 Ser Hugh had been brusque and uninformative, and arrogant as only a new-made knight can be. If the Hand wished to talk to him, he should be pleased to receive him, but he would not be questioned by a mere captain of guards … even if said captain was ten years older and a hundred times the swordsman.

Perhaps Eddard misread the situation - perhaps Ser Hugh had information that he was eager to tell the Hand of the King, but wanted to be sure it was the Hand of the King and not some spy of Baelish's that heard him. Doubtless Hugh thought it could keep until after the tourney.

I do wonder how Eddard (or Jory) knew Ser Hugh was not a great swordsman, True, Ser Hugh had been squire to Jon Arryn, which I can't imagine was a very active kind of squiring, the Hand being too busy with matters of state to spend much time in his armour in the training yard, and also being near eighty. Hugh of the Vale had been his squire for only four years, of the fourteen Jon Arryn had been at Kings Landing. Hugh couldn't have been much more than twenty when he died (and was possibly as young as sixteen or fifteen).

All these count against him, but still, it seems to me that of the three only Barristan had the opportunity to see Hugh wield a sword. Only Barristan was in a position to judge (and did judge him 'not ready to be knighted'). Neither Jory nor Eddard appear to have had any way of knowing exactly how many times better a swordsman Jory was.

[devilish]

I wonder how long Lord Tywin would accept and protect Gregor's savagery. His OTT attitude burned bridges between Dorne and the Westerlands and he nearly killed Mace Tyrell's favourite son. The old Lion must thank the gods that the Hound stopped him because if that occurred the anti Gregor fan club could have easily wiped the Lion during the war of the 5 kings.