Parts of the Series You Have Trouble Taking Seriously

[Sourjapes]

Over all I'd say ASOIAF has been pretty good with the "women warriors" thing. Brienne works and is very believable because she is described physically as being tall and strong. Asha does bother me a bit. I can certainly believe that she'd be skilled and quick with a sword and agile, and fit enough to have a lot stamina. However it seems suspect to me that those mountain clansmen wouldn't be similarly tough, but a lot taller and stronger too. That said, my issue with that scene and her as a character is that it just isn't compelling. That scene fails because it feels like something right out of a run of a mill Hollywood fantasy movie. Up to that point in terms of combat and war I feel the series has been pretty grounded. We don't see very many characters meeting one on one on the battlefield. It's what makes Robert's killing of Rhaegar on the Trident something special.

 

There is also no tension if Asha and her companions are calm and confident enough to make a game of the fight, rather than fighting for their lives. I can picture it in my head, Asha surrounded by clansmen and each of them being courteous enough to fight her one on one. Like a bad movie with a single ninja fighting 50 other ninjas but they all circle him and only attack when he has a chance to block.

 

Others have compared it to the Lord of the Rings movies and I dislike those for ultimately the same reason; if the characters don't feel like they're in danger then why should I? It's the sense of danger that adds tension and stakes, which is what makes me care about a battle or a duel. The only thing I was tense about reading about Asha's fight was that all these northmen were dying pointlessly.

 

Asha's attempt to escape from Deepwood Motte and the ambush should have been much more brief. Let her gut the first one or two soldiers who approach her, but she's only human, and no single warrior is going to take on a dozen+ enemies who have them surrounded and are intent on subdoing or killing them.

 

 

Regarding Miss C's posts. She's right about most of that. The history, biology, and differences between the sexes are well established and document with observation. Nobody has yet to explain why don't see co-ed teams in professional sports or women fighting men in MMA. Men simply have biological advantage when it comes to fighting. None of that is sexist, it's just evolution. Which by the way, we should all understand that our biology shapes our culture and our culture in turn shapes our biology.

[NutBurz]

6 hours ago, Sourjapes said:

and our culture in turn shapes our biology.

For example..?

[DarkSister1001]

12 hours ago, The Arthur Smith said:

Don't forget the blue hair.

Is there an emoji the represents that tongue roll of sexiness?

[The Arthur Smith]

1 hour ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Is there an emoji the represents that tongue roll of sexiness?

You mean this? 

[DarkSister1001]

Just now, The Arthur Smith said:

You mean this? 

Haha!  That'll do. 

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

For anybody reading/following this thread, I thought I'd just mention that, where I live, the majority of the population is raised by single mothers. The culture is fairly promiscuous, even though it's conservative, which is a bit of a weird mix lol but I don't question it too much. There is also the "village raises the child" mentality to an extent, as children are likely to be raised by mothers, aunts, grannies, older cousins and siblings, and close friends of their parents/parent. Certainly, there are often older male role models for some of the kids, but women are definitely usually the primary figures. My point being - we are not in anarchy. We certainly have crime! (Where I am right now it's getting worse, but I think that's due to increasing levels of poverty and desperation. And it's still not as bad as many places in larger countries with similar populations. Other islands are significantly safer, though they admittedly have smaller populations.) A lot of our crimes probably are committed by children who have single mothers, but since that's the majority of people that kind of follows. Most tourists also tend to describe where we are as a paradise, and it would follow that they might consider aspects of our culture 'utopian' too, even if it's untrue. For example, I've had a lot of British people tell me how good our life is here because the culture is so laid back. 

Basically, what I'm trying to say, is that the Summer Islanders culture is perfectly believable, as is the 'utopian' feel ascribed to it, even though it is likely not a utopia. 

[John Doe]

5 hours ago, NutBurz said:

For example..?

Fast food makes people fat. 

[NutBurz]

3 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Fast food makes people fat. 

An individual, ok. Not genetic inheritance.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 5/14/2016 at 5:56 AM, GraveWorries said:

1) Look up the word bigot and learn to use it properly.

2) There is not now and never has peen a patriarchal society anywhere on Planet Earth outside of Islam.  SJW apologists for misandry make me sick.

3) Women like S Williams and the E German athletes with massive steroid abuser muscles are in fact partly male. Which is why they end up having to shave, stop menstruating and can become infertile.  Hence the factually correct use of the term, "partly trans-sexual.

4) Men are stronger, faster, more intelligent, better reflexes and have a higher pain threshold than women.  Please to be explaining how inferior fighters will survive endless encounters where the odds are stacked against them?

1. From Wikipedia :  "In English the word "bigot" refers to a prejudiced, closed-minded person who is intolerant or hateful toward people of a different group, especially racial or religious." Or, as you are toward women. 

2. You are an idiot. Misandry is not a real thing, it's just your misogynist mind trying to play the victim in a society that favors you constantly. 

3.  "Transsexual people experience a gender identity that is inconsistent with, or not culturally associated with, their assigned sex, and desire to permanently transition to the gender with which they identify, usually seeking medical assistance (including hormone replacement therapy and other sex reassignment therapies) to help them align their body with their identified sex or gender. " Also from Wikipedia. Being transsexual or transgender has to do with your mind, and not always with your body. Those that are transsexual believe they do not belong to a certain gender, and instead to a different gender. It has nothing to do with taking hormones in order to compete in sports. Again, you are an idiot. 

4. .....Really? You said more intelligent ....wow you are a sexist bigot (used correctly again, cause you are close minded and hateful toward a certain group of people)You also said better reflexes and higher threshold to pain...do you have a single shred of evidence to back those up? No..no you don't cause you just made it up cause you are a bigoted idiot. Inferior fighters. Brienne is clearly suppossed to be a superior fighter than her opponents. She was trained just as much, if not more than the men she fights, and is set up as being equally as strong as many than them, and stronger than many as well. Furthermore, she is clearly more skilled than practically all her opponents in  A Feast for Crows. 

On 5/15/2016 at 8:20 PM, Orphalesion said:

Actually men and women respond similarly to pain (remember ladies have to  give birth)

Exactly, but then again that guy was just making crap up. I think you also mentioned later about GRRM having a variety of strong female characters who don't have to take on traditionally masculine traits. Just to add to that, I always throught Catelyn Tully Stark was an extremely capable and strong character (she is also my favorite character so perhaps I am biased) without having to fight or take on any sort of traditional masculine roles. 

On 5/15/2016 at 6:44 AM, Thersites said:

I suggest a reread of the offending Asha chapter. Take notice of the shield. Also, her opponents wear cheap leather armor which against a proper piercing weapon would offer the relative protection of a t-shirt. And she goes for the weak points. And she wears mail. And not only is she trained, it is reasonable to assume that being merely adequate is not enough to bear arms while not having external genitalia in westerosi society-you have to be exceptional at it (barring exceptions like the Bear Island women and the wildling spearwives). And she's taken a page from Brienne's master at arms' book, exploiting the fact that her opponents attack her recklessly because she's a woman.

Forgive my exaggerating, but imagine a fight between a man in good enough physical condition to work at a farm, but with no training to speak of, and a female olympic level fencer. A better equipped one. I trust I'm not the only one thinking the bloke will be gettiing 20 centimeters of sharpened steel through the eye in the first three seconds.

Again, this is exactly my point. They keep talking about why no women play like professional basketball with men or something. Their opponents weren't professional. Can I believe a random woman could be good enough to compete with my friends and I playing basketball...yes yes I do. In fact, one of my ex girlfriends who was a tiny woman, was excellent at practically every sport and I quite enjoyed watching her outplay men and watching their egos get crushed (fortunately my manhood doesn't depend on my ability to beat someone in sports, so I could care less when she squashed me in basketball or badminton or....hell, every sport, she was good). Yes, in a very limited sense, these guys are right, men are generally stronger than women, but Asha and Brienne are supposed to be the exception, not the rule. They are extremely talented at what they do. And quite frankly, most of their opponents are untrained, the exception being Brienne winning the Melee that Renly had in the second book. But again Brienne is supposed to be huge and quite strong, so I don't have any trouble believing it. It's not like she had to beat everyone one on one, I can only remember her beating Loras, and I think she outweighs him and is taller than him, advantages in a sword fight. 

12 hours ago, Sourjapes said:

Over all I'd say ASOIAF has been pretty good with the "women warriors" thing. Brienne works and is very believable because she is described physically as being tall and strong. Asha does bother me a bit. I can certainly believe that she'd be skilled and quick with a sword and agile, and fit enough to have a lot stamina. However it seems suspect to me that those mountain clansmen wouldn't be similarly tough, but a lot taller and stronger too. 

.

Regarding Miss C's posts. She's right about most of that. The history, biology, and differences between the sexes are well established and document with observation. Nobody has yet to explain why don't see co-ed teams in professional sports or women fighting men in MMA. Men simply have biological advantage when it comes to fighting. None of that is sexist, it's just evolution. Which by the way, we should all understand that our biology shapes our culture and our culture in turn shapes our biology.

Yes, I did. Again to repeat, Ronda Rousey vs. You, equals victory for Ronda Rousey. These are random dudes, not professionals, with the exception of Loras I mentioned above, but again, Brienne is well trained, strong, tall, and just big. She could outreach most of her opponents and she is strong enough to hold her own against smaller men. I don't think there are any cases of her overpowering larger men in the books. The northmen in general are described as not being trained with swords basically at all except noblemen. So in Asha's case really. Again, like random man playing basketball vs. Sue Bird....Sue Bird is going to win 99% of the time. Physical strength doesn't make up for training and athleticism and skill. Otherwise, you would hear of random non trained gigantic dudes becoming professional athletes, but that doesn't happen. Training wins every time vs. a completely untrained person. 

[Clegane'sPup]

The part of the series I have trouble taking seriously is how Brandon received word of Lyanna’s disappearance/kidnapping/absconding and how Eddard knew to look for his sister at Rhaegar’s tower of joy.

Eddard did say he thought to see the three KG at Trident, at the fall of KL and Storm’s End. Kinda implies to me Eddard had no idea these three KG were with his sister.

Eddard was at the Trident, fall of KL and SE taking care or war business. Who told him he could find sister at this tower located in the Prince’s Pass.

[JonisHenryTudor]

15 hours ago, The Arthur Smith said:

 

In real life, the whole case may be a thing back then with women have to be man if they want to fit in their role and reject their femininity. Like Joan of Arc, there was an instance where she told a woman to stay in the kitchen, despite herself was a woman who managed to become the commander of the army. 

I wonder if GRMM's writing on rebellious women was influenced by this considering his knowledge on medieval era/

But she didn't that is more myth than anything. The surviving letters suggest that she acted more as an inspiration than a leader under any capacity. Was she brave? Certainly. Leader, no, not likely.  

 

As for the second point, yes. This book is based on medieval social norms. Having hipster type lordlings sipping cappuccino while discussing feminism in the Reach just doesn't fit the medieval world. If Martin took this route, I wouldn't read the book. Why? Because I expect a medieval type environment. 

[OuttaOldtown]

8000 years & there's, like, 20 songs..

[Peaceable Warmonger]

@Clegane'sPup

Lyanna my may have had guardsmen with her who weren't killed for whatever reasons. Or she could have been expected at a castle on the way who looked for her after not showing up after a time.

Eddard finding Lyanna is probably a intentional mystery that will be reveled later.

On the 8000 years thing getting poked at; people in the books do that too. Many think the dates might be different.

[The Arthur Smith]

6 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

But she didn't that is more myth than anything. The surviving letters suggest that she acted more as an inspiration than a leader under any capacity. Was she brave? Certainly. Leader, no, not likely.  

Whether this is a myth or not, it does express the attitude toward a warrior woman, as to whoever wrote the accounts on Joan's life.

[JonisHenryTudor]

1 hour ago, The Arthur Smith said:

Whether this is a myth or not, it does express the attitude toward a warrior woman, as to whoever wrote the accounts on Joan's life.

Fair enough. 

 

[Florina Laufeyson]

4 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

8000 years & there's, like, 20 songs..

lmao right?

As for Ned knowing where Lyanna was, i actually think this is going to be answered, so i can take it seriously. This is deliberate in how it is left hanging and a mystery.

[Kyll.Ing.]

It wouldn't be that hard for Ned to find Lyanna. Follow the rumours ("The prince was seen travelling south..."), and since Westeros' road network isn't that extensive, there aren't many places for them to go once you can pin a general direction. Just keep asking in village after village if and when the prince and his men passed through, and eventually you'll find one where a lot of craftsmen say they were paid by him to refurbish an old watchtower.

Among the things I find the strangest is that the same language is spoken all throughout Westeros. So many thousand years after the Andals arrived, and still Dornishmen and Northerners, even Wildlings, can speak to another without problems. Even in small real-world areas with a common history and lots of inter-trading, languages are all over the place and have always been. See the Mediterranean, for instance. Even China is smaller than Westeros, and has been a nation for several hundred years, yet some dialects are mutually unintelligible.

[Sourjapes]

On 5/20/2016 at 4:11 AM, NutBurz said:

For example..?

Culture determines how we live and has a large effect on how we choose our mates. It strongly influences who succeeds and who fails. As culture shifts so too do the skills or traits that are the most beneficial. For a specific example, birth control pills influence what traits many women find attractive in a man; their tastes change depending on whether they are on or off the pill.

 

Or look at mass media, a cultural invention, that can spread ideas about attractiveness and behavior to distant peoples that previously could never have been reached. It's literally memes. Think about why a male peacock has such large and useless tail feathers. They certainly didn't evolve for survival. In fact, they can hinder it.

 

 

[Sourjapes]

23 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Yes, I did. Again to repeat, Ronda Rousey vs. You, equals victory for Ronda Rousey. These are random dudes, not professionals, with the exception of Loras I mentioned above, but again, Brienne is well trained, strong, tall, and just big. She could outreach most of her opponents and she is strong enough to hold her own against smaller men. I don't think there are any cases of her overpowering larger men in the books. The northmen in general are described as not being trained with swords basically at all except noblemen. So in Asha's case really. Again, like random man playing basketball vs. Sue Bird....Sue Bird is going to win 99% of the time. Physical strength doesn't make up for training and athleticism and skill. Otherwise, you would hear of random non trained gigantic dudes becoming professional athletes, but that doesn't happen. Training wins every time vs. a completely untrained person. 

Where is it stated that these northmen have no training with swords or other weapons at all? Why would they even be armed with swords? I thought swords were too expensive for most peasants to even own. Axes and spears would be most likely, though I don't recall if the text described precisely what they were armed with.

 

Regardless, my point was that it's a bad scene due to the character's reaction to it and the whole thing feeling very cliche.

[NutBurz]

21 minutes ago, Sourjapes said:

Culture determines how we live and has a large effect on how we choose our mates. It strongly influences who succeeds and who fails. As culture shifts so too do the skills or traits that are the most beneficial. For a specific example, birth control pills influence what traits many women find attractive in a man; their tastes change depending on whether they are on or off the pill.

 

Or look at mass media, a cultural invention, that can spread ideas about attractiveness and behavior to distant peoples that previously could never have been reached. It's literally memes. Think about why a male peacock has such large and useless tail feathers. They certainly didn't evolve for survival. In fact, they can hinder it.

 

 

You´re looking at it the opposite of how it happens. Cultures are created around genetic traits and fenotypes, and not the opposite. It was not the cult for a thin body that led people into being thin, it was the fact more and more important people became thin as diets became more balanced, and such effect led societies into believing thin was good.

And the effect of mass media on genetics needs some hundreds of years of study for any correlation to be measured.

And again, about the peacock, you´re looking at the opposite way. "Think about why a male peacock has such large and useless tail feathers. They certainly didn't evolve for survival." There´s no such thing as evolve for. Things evolve due to. If those feathers are there, it benefited them in some way that not having them wouldn´t. What it was is incredibly hard to distinguish - maybe they show females a correlation with immune system, maybe they look like owls and keep harmful insects away, who knows? Maybe someone does, but it´s certainly not the peacock´s genes. They don´t know anything. They just happen. They can´t choose to evolve into something more beautiful because that´s what females peacock want.