Some thoughts on Brynden the Blackfish Tully.

[Macgregor of the North]

Thoughts on Brynden The Blackfish Tully. 

Something I've wondered about during a current reread of AGOT. It does not seem that Brynden Tully has ever been North of the neck(by way of the Kingsroad before 298AC). First I'll have a very quick run through of Bryndens history.

Born 242-245AC. 

Squired for Lord Darry from probably around 11 years old and was knighted before the beginning of the War of the nine penny Kings (260AC) which he fought in and done excellently. 
Upon the end of the War he returned to Riverrun, but never married even though matches were made.

Upon Lysas marriage to Jon Arryn The Blackfish decided to serve them in the Vale after Roberts rebellion ended in 283AC, later becoming Knight of the gate. I understand The Blackfish remained at the Vale until AGOT where he leaves with Catelyn.

Now what got me interested was his comments in this passage. 

AGOT Catelyn VIII

"Gods have mercy," Ser Brynden exclaimed when he saw what lay before them. "This is Moat Cailin? It's no more than a—" 

"—death trap," Catelyn finished. "I know how it looks, Uncle. I thought the same the first time I saw it, but Ned assured me that this ruin is more formidable than it seems."

So when Catelyn and Brynden first meet up with Robb and his host, Brynden cannot believe this is the much famed Moat Cailin before his eyes which is confirmation he has never seen the place in his 50 odd years alive. 

If we look at Moat Cailins location, it is the first place travellers pass, (aside from Greywater watch which is by all accounts not a place most people visit anyway), and is absolutely unmissable if you travel through the neck heading North. 

So this brings me to my thoughts. It would seem that Brynden the Blackfish Tully has never passed the Neck to head North in his whole life by way of the Kingsroad as a young man/Knight fit to travel, and only sees it by the the time of the above quote in 298AC. 

I can understand this from the angle of 283AC onwards if we look at his position in the Vale and we can see that he settles there and probably never leaves there again, not to go back to Riverrun to see his brother Hoster, but he fought with him constantly so he probably never cared to visit, or even to head North to see Catelyn or her children at WF.

But if we look at the 23 years before that from when he returned to Riverrun after the WotnpK up until him leaving with Lysa and Jon and heading for the Vale. 260-283AC. 

It is already known Hoster Tully arranged a marriage for him to Bethany Redwyne that Brynden refused and other offers to for a Bracken girl and a choice of three from Walder Freys brood but Brynden never took up any offer and refused his brother flat out. 
So Brynden never married, was quite against the idea it seems. And he had a lot of time on his hands. 23 years of time. Not tied down. No kids(that we know of, barring possible bastards we've never heard of). And no real obligations in Riverrun with Hoster having no trouble producing heirs, albeit his first two attempts were girls but Edmure came later so I certainly don't think Brynden hung around Riverrun hoping to inherit the Lordship or had any ruling status, although he was no doubt a very important man. 

We also know Brynden and his brother were always conflicting. So much so that it seems like he jumped at the chance to take up service with Lysa and Jon. 

AGOT Catelyn VI

"The war had not ended until the day she and Lysa had been wed. It was at their wedding feast that Brynden told his brother he was leaving Riverrun to serve Lysa and her new husband, the Lord of the Eyrie. Lord Hoster had not spoken his brother's name since, from what Edmure told her in his infrequent letters."

So what I'm curious about is why in 23 long years did GRRM not make it so that Brynden the Blackfish Tully who never married or had children and was sick of the offers, was not really in line to inherit Riverrun, who fought constantly with his brother and Lord, and who was seemingly itching to get away from Riverrun. Why in 23 years had this man never set out to see some of the world(to the North). He was a great Knight of renown. Would have likely been welcomed in most inns and taverns in peace times. 
Why did he never fancy a ride past the neck to see the great North, to see the ancient famed Moat cailin and beyond? 

If it is for the readers benefit that Catelyn explains all Moat Cailins strengths to him so he needed to be someone that had never seen it before i could understand that, if George said that was his intent, but I think it could have worked just as well with Cat deep in thought as she approaches and remembering to herself what Ned had told her about it, or her explaining it to somebody else.

It's no big deal really but I thought that a man like Brynden Tully in the story would have travelled beyond the neck along the Kingsroad at least once in his life. 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Sometimes people just don't go to places because they're not interested in going. I think that the simplest answer is the one we should apply to this situation.

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Sometimes people just don't go to places because they're not interested in going. I think that the simplest answer is the one we should apply to this situation.

Yeah, just got me thinking though. With all that's mentioned above I thought it more than a tad strange Brynden had never made that journey once. Ever. 

Id be interested to ask GRRM if his reason was that Cat needed to explain Moat Cailins defences etc to somebody new to the place and he just chose Brynden.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Yeah, just got me thinking though. With all that's mentioned above I thought it more than a tad strange Brynden had never made that journey once. Ever. 

Id be interested to ask GRRM if his reason was that Cat needed to explain Moat Cailins defences etc to somebody new to the place and he just chose Brynden.

Likely. And besides, it's not a big deal if Brynden's never gone north. He'd have to either sail to White Harbour, or brave a journey through the Neck. Would the crannogmen let him pass? Maybe. Who knows? Who'd be willing to try after generations of invading forces getting caught in the Neck's swamps? And even if he didn't have to worry about the crannogmen, what would he do in the North? Fight? Joust? They don't have tournaments and their gods are not his. White Harbour would be the only place worth going to for a southron knight, and even then, it's super cold and harsh compared to what he's used to. So why bother?

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

Maybe he heard that northern boys were ugly.

[ForTheNorth]

Also what was Blackfish doing during Robert's Rebellion?

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

12 minutes ago, ForTheNorth said:

Also what was Blackfish doing during Robert's Rebellion?

 

He would have been part of the Tully army. It was after the war he left Riverrun to go with Lysa to the Vale and become Knight of the Gate.

[HotPieForever]

He may have been North via boat or even crossed the narrow sea, I imagine we would have heard something about it though.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

He would have been part of the Tully army. It was after the war he left Riverrun to go with Lysa to the Vale and become Knight of the Gate.

Actually the war referred to in reference with Brynden is the war between him and Hoster. He told Hoster the day that Lysa got married that he'd serve Jon Arryn from now on. It's very likely that he did fight in RR, but he'd have fought in Jon Arryn's army, after Lysa married. While he would have fought in Hoster Tully's forces at the Battle of the Bells most likely (that occurs before Cat's and Lysa's wedding). He didn't go instantly to the Vale it seems, since Lysa stayed long enough at Riverrun after the double wedding of Cat-Ned and Lysa-Jon to  speculate that both Cat and her were preggers. Cat was, but Lysa had her bleeding shortly after. Meanwhile Brynden must have shown enough ability to lead and fight in order to become the main knight at the Bloody Gate.

[Leonardo]

1 hour ago, HotPieForever said:

He may have been North via boat or even crossed the narrow sea, I imagine we would have heard something about it though.

He fought in the war of the nine penny kings, so yeah he's seen a decent chunk of Essis.

[Macgregor of the North]

8 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Likely. And besides, it's not a big deal if Brynden's never gone north. He'd have to either sail to White Harbour, or brave a journey through the Neck. Would the crannogmen let him pass? Maybe. Who knows? Who'd be willing to try after generations of invading forces getting caught in the Neck's swamps? And even if he didn't have to worry about the crannogmen, what would he do in the North? Fight? Joust? They don't have tournaments and their gods are not his. White Harbour would be the only place worth going to for a southron knight, and even then, it's super cold and harsh compared to what he's used to. So why bother?

No I never thought it a big deal really. Just a curious fact that a seasoned Knight who has had a taste of southern culture fighting in the WotnpK wouldn't want to sample a slice of Northern culture. 

He wouldn't have to brave a journey through the neck, after the War was won the 260sAC would have been pretty peaceful and all he needed to do was hop on a horse and breeze right up the Kingsroad. He doesn't even have to see one Crannogman, and in peace times they do not hold the Kingsroad against travellers.

He doesn't have to seek combat or Tourney, just soak it all in man. See the sights, learn. I don't think White harbour is the only place worth going. For a smart man who has nothing but time, seeing some of the world is definitely a reasonable idea.

And the North isn't harsh in Summer times. Maybe a tad colder than the rest of the realm but it's not going to put anybody off travelling there if they desired, and he would have seen a good deal of summer weather perfect for travelling. 

So why bother you ask? My more inclined to say why not? But it's the way George wrote the character so all I can do is wonder. 

[Macgregor of the North]

9 hours ago, HotPieForever said:

He may have been North via boat or even crossed the narrow sea, I imagine we would have heard something about it though.

Yup there is the possibility he has went North by boat although that always seems a method of transport to take if you must make great haste and I can't see any reason he would have had to do that. 

I was thinking along the lines of just hitting the Kingsroad with a sword and a horse and some coin to get away from the atmosphere around Riverrun for a bit since it seems Riverrun would have been a bit annoying at times always clashing with his brother and being asked when he's going to marry. 

Its just something I was curious about but GRRM has his reasons so all we can do is ponder and wonder I suppose.

[FrostyDornishman]

I don't think it's very remarkable or out of place that the Blackfish hasn't seen the North.  Even for noble knights like him, I get the feeling you only travel as much as you have to in Westeros.  Traveling any distance on horseback is difficult, dangerous, and takes a lot of time.  A lot of POV characters are big travelers, but we follow their stories because they're the one-in-a-million movers and shakers.

When would he have had time?  What would be up there for him anyway?  Based on your timeline, he's spent his entire adult life in service to someone.  He seems pretty focused on carrying out his duties as best he can.  Why then, unless his knightly duties took him North, would he ever want to go?  Cat's up there after Robert's Rebellion, but by then he's Knight of the Gate, which sounds like a job that doesn't allow for time off.

I dunno, I'm guess I'm wondering why you thought this was curious to begin with.  I would have found it much weirder if at some point he was like "Yeah, I've been up north.  Just for shits and giggles, you know."  Totally out of character.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

15 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

So what I'm curious about is why in 23 long years did GRRM not make it so that Brynden the Blackfish Tully who never married or had children and was sick of the offers, was not really in line to inherit Riverrun, who fought constantly with his brother and Lord, and who was seemingly itching to get away from Riverrun. Why in 23 years had this man never set out to see some of the world(to the North). He was a great Knight of renown. Would have likely been welcomed in most inns and taverns in peace times. 
Why did he never fancy a ride past the neck to see the great North, to see the ancient famed Moat cailin and beyond? 

 

It's kind of like a Spanish hidalgo never seeing Moscow or Oslo. Not that intriguing, tbh.

[David Selig]

Because the North is really boring and cold. Why go there when there are so many interesting places with better climate to visit?

[aryagonnakill#2]

I live in NY maybe 4 hours from Niagra Falls and tons of people around here have never even been there.  That's with cars and trains etc.  A lot of people simply don't travel.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

 

It's kind of like a Spanish hidalgo never seeing Moscow or Oslo. Not that intriguing, tbh.

Was intriguing to me tbh. But the reason is most likely for the effect of telling Brynden Moat Cailins defence points to our benefit.