Will Brienne end ASOIAF a virgin?

[Ashur]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think she is very respectful of marriage, and would love to be married. But that she only wants to do so when she meets a man whom she loves and who loves her, and wishes to marry her for herself.  I don't think any relationship she has with Jaime would be unimportant or mundane, far from it! 

What is clear in the text is that these two have romantic feelings towards one another, and that they are indeed falling in love. I think it would be a poor story teller who develops such a thing, only to abandon it without conclusion. It goes against all narrative structure, and not in a good way. 

She might be respectful of marriage, but not for herself. She has been mocked because of her masculine role, and I think she believes that she is going to be seen scornfully, or compassionately at best, by any husband. I think she's mostly right, although you never know.

Secondly, when I say mundane, it is not about her relationship Jaime. I'm just discarding the idea of Brienne losing virginity to a random guy. Regarding Jaime, I agree that those two have some strong feelings between them, there will be a conclusion of that arch. But I don't think it is going to be the one that some expect.

[I Dream of Spring]

On 14/04/2016 at 7:22 AM, Chickren said:

Totally, dude.

Off topic: Are you the Chickren from the Close the Door and Come Here podcast?  If so, I love this podcast!   It's one of my favorites,  I listen every week. 

On topic: Jaime and Brienne will bang.  It is known.

[Chickren]

3 minutes ago, I Dream of Spring said:

Off topic: Are you the Chickren from the Close the Door and Come Here podcast?  If so, I love this podcast!   It's one of my favorites,  I listen every week. 

On topic: Jaime and Brienne will bang.  It is known.

Guilty as charged. Leave it to "dude" to give me away.

And yeah, they're banging. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

11 hours ago, Ashur said:

She might be respectful of marriage, but not for herself. She has been mocked because of her masculine role, and I think she believes that she is going to be seen scornfully, or compassionately at best, by any husband. I think she's mostly right, although you never know.

Secondly, when I say mundane, it is not about her relationship Jaime. I'm just discarding the idea of Brienne losing virginity to a random guy. Regarding Jaime, I agree that those two have some strong feelings between them, there will be a conclusion of that arch. But I don't think it is going to be the one that some expect.

I disagree, I think if she were to marry Jaime, he'd admire and respect her "masculine" traits. And love her for them, their love is pretty deep imo. Don't get me wrong he's noticing all her female physical attributes and her astonishingly pretty eyes. But dude admires her sword skills, her strength, her sense of honour and right. And that shit seems to matter more to him than any ideal of femininity society deems desirable. 

No, never some Random Guy; only Jaime. 

And where do you see it going? 

[HairGrowsBack]

Agree with what @The Weirwoods Eyes said. Brienne doesn't have a problem with marriage itself. She has a problem with the men she was meant to marry, who were complete douchebags, and she assumes (since it's a series of failures)she'll never find someone good (and that's where she's wrong).

It is linked to the fact that people take the "only accepts chastisement from someone who can outfight her" at face value, or alternatively to somewhat mean : never ever wants to marry ever. This is not the case at all. All she wants is someone who at the very least respects her as a woman AND a knight, and , though she never dares think it out loud, loves her.

[Ashur]

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I disagree, I think if she were to marry Jaime, he'd admire and respect her "masculine" traits. And love her for them, their love is pretty deep imo. Don't get me wrong he's noticing all her female physical attributes and her astonishingly pretty eyes. But dude admires her sword skills, her strength, her sense of honour and right. And that shit seems to matter more to him than any ideal of femininity society deems desirable. 

No, never some Random Guy; only Jaime. 

And where do you see it going? 

I don't think that their love is deep. They have strong feelings between them, but I wouldn't call it love (in a romantic way). There's a strong mutual respect, and also sexual tension, but that's not enough.

I think Brienne will either die or carry with her path of service as "men at arms". I also could envisage an scenario in which she marry some noble man, but it is a remote scenario if you ask me. But Jaime? I don't think so. Although there's a precedent in GRRM's Dying of the Light novella of a couple of fighters that teamed together while being lovers.

 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

16 hours ago, Ashur said:

She might be respectful of marriage, but not for herself. She has been mocked because of her masculine role, and I think she believes that she is going to be seen scornfully, or compassionately at best, by any husband. I think she's mostly right, although you never know.

I think you're misunderstanding her backstory a bit.  Brienne had the same dreams as Sansa, when she was young.  All she wanted was to do her duty to her father, marry, and produce a Tarth heir.  It was only after she was rejected by Red Ronnet so cruelly (grrrr) that she began to forge another path... And even then she is not opposed to marraige.  She considers other suitors while also training to be the son Selwyn doesn't have.

Ultimately, she makes the old dude fight her for her hand not because she doesn't want to marry, but because she doesn't want to marry someone who is going to brutally repress her.  If he had been gentlemanly, accepting of who she was, and loving/gracious in his proposal, she'd have probably married the guy.  She believes in honor and duty, and part of that for her is fulfilling her duty to her father - who she happens to love more than anyone. 

That door closed, yes, she ultimately devotes herself entirely to the life of the knight errant. But that's not all she wants...  She craves romance and love, and a happy home as well.

16 hours ago, Ashur said:

Secondly, when I say mundane, it is not about her relationship Jaime. I'm just discarding the idea of Brienne losing virginity to a random guy. Regarding Jaime, I agree that those two have some strong feelings between them, there will be a conclusion of that arch. But I don't think it is going to be the one that some expect.

I'd much prefer it's with Jaime than a "random guy" like Hyle Hunt or something.  But, I think any ending where Brienne is able to both continue to live a life of honor as a knight and fulfill her father's wish to continue House Tarth would be good for me.  Alas she may die horribly...

[Wall Flower]

5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I disagree, I think if she were to marry Jaime, he'd admire and respect her "masculine" traits. And love her for them, their love is pretty deep imo. Don't get me wrong he's noticing all her female physical attributes and her astonishingly pretty eyes. But dude admires her sword skills, her strength, her sense of honour and right. And that shit seems to matter more to him than any ideal of femininity society deems desirable. 

No, never some Random Guy; only Jaime. 

And where do you see it going? 

I guess my problem is not so much with Brienne, who'd I like to see ruling Tarth and carrying on her line but more with the idea that Jaime can really just walk away from everything he's responsible for and leave Cersei and his remaining children to carry the can while he gets a happy ever after.  I'm just not sure that Jaime is going to be allowed to walk away from his past and his guilt. 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

15 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

I guess my problem is not so much with Brienne, who'd I like to see ruling Tarth and carrying on her line but more with the idea that Jaime can really just walk away from everything he's responsible for and leave Cersei and his remaining children to carry the can while he gets a happy ever after.  I'm just not sure that Jaime is going to be allowed to walk away from his past and his guilt. 

Oh, I think if Jaime really is the Valonquor and kills Cersei, he is going to be entirely wracked with guilt and mentally fucked up for a long time regardless of what happens with Brienne.  Especially because both Tommen and Myrcella will die "under his watch".  There is no walking away Scot free for him.  At best, Jaime will be recovering for the rest of his life, with Briennes help.  At worst he'll go mad with grief and kill himself immediately (the "we'll leave the world together" theory)...

A marraige to Brienne who he's come to love will still be deeply bittersweet for Jaime.  Myrcella and Tommen were innocent and Jamie failed them.  Cersei was not innocent, but he also loved her once.  You don't strangle your former lover to death under any circumstance and come away unscarred.

[Wall Flower]

14 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Oh, I think if Jaime really is the Valonquor and kills Cersei, he is going to be entirely wracked with guilt and mentally fucked up for a long time regardless of what happens with Brienne.  Especially because both Tommen and Myrcella will die "under his watch".  There is no walking away Scot free for him.  At best, Jaime will be recovering for the rest of his life, with Briennes help.  At worst he'll go mad with grief and kill himself immediately (the "we'll leave the world together" theory)...

A marraige to Brienne who he's come to love will still be deeply bittersweet for Jaime.  Myrcella and Tommen were innocent and Jamie failed them.  Cersei was not innocent, but he also loved her once.  You don't strangle your former lover to death under any circumstance and come away unscarred.

I like Jaime a lot as a character but he's equally complicit in many of Cersei's crimes. A bittersweet marriage to Brienne isn't really justice or redemption. Living with guilt (and self-pity) may be tough but it's probably better than being strangled to death by the one person you trusted. If Jaime outlives Cersei and his children, I'd prefer to see him take the black as Ned Stark once wanted. This is Westeros of course, so justice may not be served.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

5 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

I like Jaime a lot as a character but he's equally complicit in many of Cersei's crimes. A bittersweet marriage to Brienne isn't really justice or redemption. Living with guilt (and self-pity) may be tough but it's probably better than being strangled to death by the one person you trusted. If Jaime outlives Cersei and his children, I'd prefer to see him take the black as Ned Stark once wanted. This is Westeros of course, so justice may not be served.

That's reasonable.  I honestly have no clue what's in store for them.  Also despite my post I hope Jaime is not the Valonquor - I certainly don't consider such action "redemptive".  But there are Plenty of very satisfying possible outcomes exist if they both survive LS.  Jaime could also be sent to the wall by Dany and Tyrion, for example, or even join the KG of Jon or Dany (latter would be a bit ridiculous).  Maybe Brienne would follow him there, or come north with whatever king or Queen she is following by the end and both will fight side by side as part of the new 13 companions.

Or, he could die by Lady Stonehearts hand - I've said before I give even odds to one or the other dying, or neither (Both dying seems like overkill).  

Regardless, I'm about 75% sure that Brienne and Jaime will have sex before one of them dies, I'd give a another 50% chance she gets pregnant, but only like 10% chance they "end up" together (either married or romantically together in some oestesibly organization like the NW or KG).  If Jaime dies, Brienne could raise her child as the Tarth heir (legitimate or not) and refuse to name the father.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

2 hours ago, Ashur said:

I don't think that their love is deep. They have strong feelings between them, but I wouldn't call it love (in a romantic way). There's a strong mutual respect, and also sexual tension, but that's not enough.

I think Brienne will either die or carry with her path of service as "men at arms". I also could envisage an scenario in which she marry some noble man, but it is a remote scenario if you ask me. But Jaime? I don't think so. Although there's a precedent in GRRM's Dying of the Light novella of a couple of fighters that teamed together while being lovers.

 

In which case we could not disagree more. 

I guess it all depends upon what you personally think Love is. I've come to realise that a few people have a very narrow and exclusionary idea about what love is. And I really disagree with that notion. Love is a multifaceted thing, it can arrive quickly, or grow over decades. it can be romantic, platonic, exciting or offer security. It can be dangerous, Ugly, sometimes scary and unhealthy. Love can keep you going or destroy you.  I certainly wouldn't have the cheek to say I knew exactly what love is to any given person, nor to tell someone that what they feel is not really love. How patronising. 

Certainly when we examine the science of love it basically boils down to some neuro-chemicals. 

I think their love runs deep, each offers the other something which they deeply desire. For Brienne, Jaime offers love of her as her true self, and not just a tolerance of her knightly tendencies, but a deep admiration!  He provides something which she could previously only dream of. A man who wants her sexually, admires her talents and skill, and respects her philosophy on life. 

For Jaime Brienne offers true love, not the empty narcissistic love Cersei gave him, but something real, which she feels for him as a man, and isn't simply a reflection of her own self love as in his sisters case, Brienne, offers compassion, She inspires him, she supports his own desires in terms of his life goals (be a true knight) and he can respect and admire her as a human being. Brienne also brings what Jaime says he wants in a woman - innocence, and I don't mean that in terms of her being a virgin, as he jests about in the text. But she is free of artifice, and her love is offered without condition. She doesn't want to use him. 

Both offer the other fidelity, which is something each demands within a relationship. As I said Jaime was truly devastated to learn of Cersei's other lovers and Brienne takes vows seriously, no way would she be cool with her husband having a bit on the side. 

I'm absolutely convinced they will fight together, and marry and he'll die leaving her with child. She gets to carry on Tarth's lineage but is left a widow having lost the one man whom she knew loved her and accepted her as she was, and he gets the real wife and child he craves and redeems himself as a Knight, only to die and go down in history as an outlaw, despite having been fighting for the right and justice and being more of a true knight than he ever was as a KG. And having never had the chance to hold his own babe. Still! 

Bittersweet. 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

@The Weirwoods Eyes

great post, very romantic!

I think some forget that emotional attraction is a thing that many people experience, and something that can often build to sexual attraction and romantic love. A lot of literature written during the Romantic period emphasizes this aspect of love - the word "admire" was often used synonymously with romantic love.   Part of this is that it would have been considered inappropriate to discuss physical aspects of desire but it's more than that.  People often do connect intellectually and emotionally before they do sexually.   in my experience (and I think some science backs this up also) emotional attraction tends to persist when pure physical attraction fades (like what time does to us all..), allowing sexual and romantic love to continue throughout a long term relationship.

Jaime is deeply emotionally attracted to Brienne, I believe.  He absolutely admires her more than anyone alive.  I don't believe he ever admired Cersei - he tolerated her at best, for the sexual aspects of their relationship which he enjoyed, but was frustrated by her emotionally and intellectually.  They were never on the same wavelength mentally - he pretended to be what she wanted him to - badly, and it killed him inside.

Jaimes attraction to Brienne is especially evident when they meet again in DWD. He is deeply caring, compassionate, even soulful in their interaction.  He immediately drops his facade of cynicism and forgets everything except to do what she asks of him to do.  He is smitten.

[norwaywolf123]

So Jaime pairning are

Jaime/Cersei

Jaime/Brienne

and maybe

Jaime/Daenerys "I wonder what the mad king would think if his daughter married jaime, Tywins son?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1 hour ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

@The Weirwoods Eyes

great post, very romantic!

I think some forget that emotional attraction is a thing that many people experience, and something that can often build to sexual attraction and romantic love. A lot of literature written during the Romantic period emphasizes this aspect of love - the word "admire" was often used synonymously with romantic love.   Part of this is that it would have been considered inappropriate to discuss physical aspects of desire but it's more than that.  People often do connect intellectually and emotionally before they do sexually.   in my experience (and I think some science backs this up also) emotional attraction tends to persist when pure physical attraction fades (like what time does to us all..), allowing sexual and romantic love to continue throughout a long term relationship.

Jaime is deeply emotionally attracted to Brienne, I believe.  He absolutely admires her more than anyone alive.  I don't believe he ever admired Cersei - he tolerated her at best, for the sexual aspects of their relationship which he enjoyed, but was frustrated by her emotionally and intellectually.  They were never on the same wavelength mentally - he pretended to be what she wanted him to - badly, and it killed him inside.

Jaimes attraction to Brienne is especially evident when they meet again in DWD. He is deeply caring, compassionate, even soulful in their interaction.  He immediately drops his facade of cynicism and forgets everything except to do what she asks of him to do.  He is smitten.

Thank you very much, and yes, Oxytocin is the bonding hormone. It is released during intercourse, orgasm, birth and breastfeeding. And Skin to Skin contact. 

it is what bonds us together over time, both within romantic/sexual relationships, platonic friendships, and familial bonds. We even make it in response to our pets affection, hence why it kills us when they die. 

 

[Equilibrium]

3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

In which case we could not disagree more. 

I guess it all depends upon what you personally think Love is. I've come to realise that a few people have a very narrow and exclusionary idea about what love is. And I really disagree with that notion. Love is a multifaceted thing, it can arrive quickly, or grow over decades. it can be romantic, platonic, exciting or offer security. It can be dangerous, Ugly, sometimes scary and unhealthy. Love can keep you going or destroy you.  I certainly wouldn't have the cheek to say I knew exactly what love is to any given person, nor to tell someone that what they feel is not really love. How patronising. 

Certainly when we examine the science of love it basically boils down to some neuro-chemicals. 

I think their love runs deep, each offers the other something which they deeply desire. For Brienne, Jaime offers love of her as her true self, and not just a tolerance of her knightly tendencies, but a deep admiration!  He provides something which she could previously only dream of. A man who wants her sexually, admires her talents and skill, and respects her philosophy on life. 

For Jaime Brienne offers true love, not the empty narcissistic love Cersei gave him, but something real, which she feels for him as a man, and isn't simply a reflection of her own self love as in his sisters case, Brienne, offers compassion, She inspires him, she supports his own desires in terms of his life goals (be a true knight) and he can respect and admire her as a human being. Brienne also brings what Jaime says he wants in a woman - innocence, and I don't mean that in terms of her being a virgin, as he jests about in the text. But she is free of artifice, and her love is offered without condition. She doesn't want to use him. 

Both offer the other fidelity, which is something each demands within a relationship. As I said Jaime was truly devastated to learn of Cersei's other lovers and Brienne takes vows seriously, no way would she be cool with her husband having a bit on the side. 

I'm absolutely convinced they will fight together, and marry and he'll die leaving her with child. She gets to carry on Tarth's lineage but is left a widow having lost the one man whom she knew loved her and accepted her as she was, and he gets the real wife and child he craves and redeems himself as a Knight, only to die and go down in history as an outlaw, despite having been fighting for the right and justice and being more of a true knight than he ever was as a KG. And having never had the chance to hold his own babe. Still! 

Bittersweet. 

Nicely said.

It would be bittersweet.

I would like to add that the Jaime's first breaking of KG vows when he killed Aerys and his last breaking of KG vows, having sex with Brienne and producing a child would form nice thematic circle. Murder for the benefit of others he was reviled for and procreation for love, for which he and Brienne may be celebrated, parallel to Aemon the Dragonknight and Naerys.

[flying mosquito]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Thank you very much, and yes, Oxytocin is the bonding hormone. [...] We even make it in response to our pets affection, hence why it kills us when they die. 

 

Damn, just ask John Wick...

ETA: to the OP, I certainly feel the vibes between Brienne and Jaime, but I don't think the circumstances will allow them to explore this path... And banging with another guy? I don't see it at all.

[HexMachina]

Relevant

Great discussion though. And I particularly like The Weirwoods Eyes' idea of Jaime and Brienne having a child then Jaime dying. Although, given timescales (and I guess this really depends on how long GRRM j tends the remaining story to cover) it may just be he case that Brienne is pregnant by the end, rather than actually having given birth. 

Brienne having a child would be a rather fitting callback to her "nobody sings song about childbirth" (paraphrasing). She clearly understands the thankless and painful experience it must be. 

[Marcus Agrippa]

An interesting tree branch on the whole we go out together thing- what happens if it's jaime old self that dies? Another one for you- considering Martins historic repersantion of cripples, maybe Jaime will survive the series after all? I have long suspected that two of the Lannisters will end up dead, and the more I read into tyrion, part of me wonders if he isn't doomed to die for his more recent crimes.

[Ashur]

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

In which case we could not disagree more. 

I guess it all depends upon what you personally think Love is. I've come to realise that a few people have a very narrow and exclusionary idea about what love is. And I really disagree with that notion. Love is a multifaceted thing, it can arrive quickly, or grow over decades. it can be romantic, platonic, exciting or offer security. It can be dangerous, Ugly, sometimes scary and unhealthy. Love can keep you going or destroy you.  I certainly wouldn't have the cheek to say I knew exactly what love is to any given person, nor to tell someone that what they feel is not really love. How patronising.

 I agree. Wonderfully stated, by the way.

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think their love runs deep, each offers the other something which they deeply desire. For Brienne, Jaime offers love of her as her true self, and not just a tolerance of her knightly tendencies, but a deep admiration!  He provides something which she could previously only dream of. A man who wants her sexually, admires her talents and skill, and respects her philosophy on life. 

For Jaime Brienne offers true love, not the empty narcissistic love Cersei gave him, but something real, which she feels for him as a man, and isn't simply a reflection of her own self love as in his sisters case, Brienne, offers compassion, She inspires him, she supports his own desires in terms of his life goals (be a true knight) and he can respect and admire her as a human being. Brienne also brings what Jaime says he wants in a woman - innocence, and I don't mean that in terms of her being a virgin, as he jests about in the text. But she is free of artifice, and her love is offered without condition. She doesn't want to use him. 

Both offer the other fidelity, which is something each demands within a relationship. As I said Jaime was truly devastated to learn of Cersei's other lovers and Brienne takes vows seriously, no way would she be cool with her husband having a bit on the side.

I agree on most of your remarks, but still I'm reluctant to admit that there is romantic love between them. And don't get me wrong, it is not because I'm flippant enough as to think that Jaime wouldn't love Brienne because he's shiny, handsome and popular with women, and so on. I just think that their relation developed into something different from romantic love, and if it has a romantic side, it is more of a platonic nature. I might be wrong, of course.