Will Brienne end ASOIAF a virgin?

[Tianzi]

Tyrion didn't stay a virgin and he didn't even have to pay. And he attracted an admirer even after losing his nose and social status.

Lollys didn't stay a virgin, though it obviously wasn't a good turn for her.

 

Brienne has actually had dozens of, umm, 'opportunities' to lose her virginity:

a. Wannabe-rapists.

Thankfully most of them ended headless or at least earless and I think it's unlikely she'll be raped.

b. Arseholes who made that bet.

Not a positive attention, but she does attract some due to her uniqueness.

c. 'Hey, she is still rich!'

She was engaged three times and twice it didn't end because of her looks. More lately she's been propositioned by Hunt, even if his pick-up line was 'I think I can get it up when it's really dark'. By his (and Jaime's) example it seems like she can at least inspire respect and platonic appreciation from men who know her long enough.

Of course, the bitten-off face isn't going to help. Enter...

d. TRU LUV!

Well, I'd say Jaime, but that's uncertain. I feel that the bath scene along with their whole interactions were ambiguous enough that the people who don't want it to happen can scream that there were no hints and the people who wish it to happen can claim that no, there were plenty of hints.

And they may still die (Brienne and Jaime, not these people. I mean, those people too, but not in the books...)

Anyway, I'm gonna use the forbidden word and say that Brienne definitely DESERVES to be romantically loved and I hope that Martin throws her a bone.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

7 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

While I agree that Jaime see past the surface with Brienne, nothing he does seem romantic. He starts to respect her and regard her as his equal and begins to defend her because of that. But I haven't seen anything indicating romantic attraction on his part. I think they will have a deep bond like best friends not romantic partners. 

It depends on what you define as "romantic". Considering this is literature, we need to examine the evidence Martin is presenting.

First, we see Jaime going from saying things like "I love Cersei, she's so perfect!" to "Brienne is not that bad" and "Brienne is attractive too". This shows a progression in how he perceives Brienne not as a fellow warrior but as a woman.

Martin presents so many parallels between Jaime and Brienne and Cersei. Jaime wants desperately to return to Cersei, yet, he turns back for Brienne when he realised she was in danger. And when Cersei asked her for help, he refused to return with her (yet, she followed Brienne easily).

The scene when they are in the White Tower is also telling. Cersei arrives and demands Jaime to kill Tyrion and offers sex. She does as much as trying to undress him and he also says no and rejects her. Cersei makes fun of him and his masculinity when he can't get hard. Yet, Jaime, willingly, offers Brienne his sword, being a sword a symbol of masculinity. He trusts that thing it defines him as a man to Brienne. He feels comfortable, as a man, with Brienne.

What Martin wants to represent is that both Brienne and Jaime are already attracted to each other, but they haven't realised how much or in what degree. Brienne is aware she sees Jaime as a "god", but not that she's in love. In the same way, Jaime hasn't yet figured out the protectiveness he feels about Brienne is love. We have been told before the characters. We'll get there.

 

[Chickren]

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As to the idea that Jaime and Brienne are destined for a romantic relationship, you guys miss the plot completely. Jaime's arousal in the bath house was largely due to the grotesque nature of the situation, kind of like some people get aroused at crash scenes, or during situations of extreme peril. He had just has hand chopped off, after days of suffering was suddenly in a hot bath, feeling pleasant sensations wash over him at last, and a naked woman - however grotesque - climbs into the tub with him.

It was a moment of weirdness depicted by Martin, not a hint that he is geniunely romantically attracted to her. Her face being bitten off in the last book just carries on this grotesque theme. So the answer is no, Jaime is not going to sleep with her. So yes, she will probably die a virgin.

You're wrong (and you're also wrong).

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Jaime's arousal in the bath house was largely due to the grotesque nature of the situation, kind of like some people get aroused at crash scenes, or during situations of extreme peril.

You're wrong here. Nothing about the bathhouse situation is a "crash scene" or "extreme peril" sort of scenario. For the first time in weeks (months for Jaime), they are relatively safe and relatively well fed under Roose Bolton's questionable hospitality. 

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Jaime felt a hundred and nine years old, which was a deal better than he had been feeling when he came to Harrenhal. (Jaime V, ASoS)

The show may imply that the scene where Qyburn dresses Jaime's hand is followed immediately by the bathhouse scene, which could perhaps give the impression that Jaime has just suffered extreme trauma. This is decidedly not the case in the books. Something like one-two weeks (depending on the timeline you like) pass uneventfully between their arrival at Harrenhal and the bathhouse scene. While it's true that Jaime is still feverish because of his hand, he walks into the bathhouse of his own volition and has enough snark and wherewithal not only to insult both his and Brienne's guards, but also to send them all away, which leads us to your next point of wrongness...

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and a naked woman - however grotesque - climbs into the tub with him.

Nope. Wrong again. 

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Jaime climbed in with the wench (Jaime V, ASoS)

Brienne shrunk away from him. “There are other tubs.”

“This one suits me well enough.” (Jaime V, ASoS)

He climbs in with her. Deliberately. After clearing the room.

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It was a moment of weirdness depicted by Martin

No. It wasn't. This argument is used a lot. 'GRRM's just setting a scene, blah blah.' or 'Boners are meaningless.' But no. The entire bathhouse setup and the boner are deliberate choices and they absolutely are the beginning hints that Jaime has latent sexual and romantic interest in Brienne. 

How do we know? Well, GRRM revisits baths with both Jaime and Brienne in Feast just to reiterate the message he intended the reader to take from this scene. And, before you ask, no--not the Heartfelt True Confession™ message, but the sexual attraction message. Witness:

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The bathhouse had been thick with the steam rising off the water, and Jaime had come walking through that mist naked as his name day, looking half a corpse and half a god. He climbed into the tub with me, she remembered, blushing. She seized a chunk of hard lye soap and scrubbed under her arms, trying to call up Renly’s face again. (Brienne II, AFfC)

Cersei rose from the bath. Water ran down her legs and trickled from her hair. “When I want your counsel I will ask for it. Leave me, ser. I must needs dress.”

“Your supper guests, I know. What plot is this, now? There are so many I lose track.” His glance fell to the water beading in the golden hair between her legs.

He still wants me. “Pining for what you’ve lost, brother?”

Jaime raised his eyes. “I love you too, sweet sister. But you’re a fool. A beautiful golden fool.” (Cersei V, AFfC)

He was grateful when the bath was deep enough to conceal his arousal. As he lowered himself into the steaming water, he recalled another bath, the one he’d shared with Brienne. He had been feverish and weak from loss of blood, and the heat had made him so dizzy he found himself saying things better left unsaid. This time he had no such excuse. Remember your vows. (Jaime IV, AFfC)

All three of these reflections on the Harrenhal bathhouse are sexual in nature. Brienne has a fantasy about Jaime. Jaime gets to see Cersei re-enact the bath scene (this time with Cersei in Brienne's place) right down to the pubic hair staring which had caused him to think of Cersei at Harrenhal. And Jaime has himself yet another awkward boner, which reminds him of the one he had with Brienne. So, no, absolutely not just a moment of weirdness but a moment so intentional that Martin replays it three times.

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not a hint that he is geniunely romantically attracted to her

You're so wrong here. This is exactly, without question, what it is. Just look at the scene again:

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She jerked to her feet as if he’d struck her, sending a wash of hot water across the tub. Jaime caught a glimpse of the thick blonde bush at the juncture of her thighs as she climbed out. She was much hairier than his sister. Absurdly, he felt his cock stir beneath the bathwater. Now I know I have been too long away from Cersei. He averted his eyes, troubled by his body’s response. (Jaime V, ASoS)

Look at the denial Jaime reaches for as he describes what causes his erection. This is, of course, after he's been making comments about her breasts and cleared the room so he can climb in the tub with her naked.

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As to the idea that Jaime and Brienne are destined for a romantic relationship, you guys miss the plot completely.

If anyone has missed the plot here, it's you. I'm not even getting into the other obvious signs of romantic interest Jaime shows in Brienne, and I'm not getting into the signs of sexual interest he shows beyond the bath either. We're just talking about the bathhouse itself here. Is Jaime himself in denial about all this? Famously so, to the point that he even mocks himself for his failure to pinpoint what his feelings are for Brienne.

GRRM is a very deliberate writer, and he's been deliberate as fuck in showing what's going on with Jaime and Brienne. I mean, he's revisited their bath scene alone three times! The part of the plot that you've missed is the thing called narrative. The message the author is trying to convey. The message here isn't about a random boner to set a """""grotesque""""" scene as you are trying to insist. The message is that a Jaime and Brienne romance is coming like a freight train.

And if you want to step further outside the narrative, you can also consider this Gwendoline Christie quote:

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I spoke to George R.R. Martin about this, and he said that it was always his intention with Jaime and Brienne to take the classic Beauty and the Beast story, and turn it on its head. Brienne is not ‘unconventionally attractive’, she’s ugly, and she’s ugly to society. She is the beast. [x]

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

BONERS ARE NOT MEANINGLESS IN LITERATURE!

[Maxxine]

8 minutes ago, JonCon's Red Beard said:

It depends on what you define as "romantic". Considering this is literature, we need to examine the evidence Martin is presenting.

First, we see Jaime going from saying things like "I love Cersei, she's so perfect!" to "Brienne is not that bad" and "Brienne is attractive too". This shows a progression in how he perceives Brienne not as a fellow warrior but as a woman.

Martin presents so many parallels between Jaime and Brienne and Cersei. Jaime wants desperately to return to Cersei, yet, he turns back for Brienne when he realised she was in danger. And when Cersei asked her for help, he refused to return with her (yet, she followed Brienne easily).

The scene when they are in the White Tower is also telling. Cersei arrives and demands Jaime to kill Tyrion and offers sex. She does as much as trying to undress him and he also says no and rejects her. Cersei makes fun of him and his masculinity when he can't get hard. Yet, Jaime, willingly, offers Brienne his sword, being a sword a symbol of masculinity. He trusts that thing it defines him as a man to Brienne. He feels comfortable, as a man, with Brienne.

What Martin wants to represent is that both Brienne and Jaime are already attracted to each other, but they haven't realised how much or in what degree. Brienne is aware she sees Jaime as a "god", but not that she's in love. In the same way, Jaime hasn't yet figured out the protectiveness he feels about Brienne is love. We have been told before the characters. We'll get there.

 

I don't remember him ever calling Brienne attractive. I know he stops commenting on how ugly she is, but I don't remember him going that far. Not saying you're wrong I just don't remember that,

In the context of what has happened between Jaime and Cersei, the fact that he doesn't help Cersei but helps Brienne doesn't say a lot to me. He's pissed at Cersei for the insults she says to him and for what Tyrion told him plus he knows he can't help her because he lost his sword hand. Despite this he still pines after Cersei and as you said desperately wants to be with her. Almost every chapter he's thinking about Cersei and comparing women to Cersei. That's the woman he wants romantically. On the other hand, he trusts Brienne in a way he can't trust Cersei right now so it wasn't anything to think about (even though she may be the one about to betray him). But that doesn't mean he wants her romantically. She's just shown she's trustworthy. That, to me, doesn't indicate romantic feelings.

Once again, context, she wanted him to kill his brother who he truly loves. So denying her in this context doesn't say a lot. And I understand the sword (and sheathe) symbolism. However, symbolism is something I've always taken an issue with since I first learned about back in middle school or high school or whenever it was. There's a lot of sword-giving in this series. When is it symbolism and when is a sword just a sword? It's hard to know. So I'm not going to say you're wrong. I'm just not there yet.

I definitely see it from Brienne's POV. She mixes up Jaime & Renly (someone who it is known she's attracted to) in her memories and calls for him while having fever dreams. Her attraction to him imo is obvious. I'm just not seeing it from him. From him I see companionship, not romantic partner. For him, it seems to be Cersei or bust especially considering he has noted that he wants to stay true to his vows now.

[Ruhail]

If she somehow makes it past bwb and Mother merciless i see her confessing her inner feelings to Jaime

[Brother of edd tollett]

Hope this never gets answered by george: because its not something that defines her as a person. Whether she will have sex or not in the end this is not something i would be interested in at all. Its not that which makes Brienne a special character. Being a virgin doesnt mean she has a high morality or any of her other traits. 

[Nevets]

I think Brienne and Jaime are attracted to each other, although may not fully realize it yet.  Whether they will have an opportunity to have sex I don't know.  I do believe that Brienne will have sex at some point, though.  I still like Ser Hyle as a potential partner.  He actually seems to care about her.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

2 hours ago, JonCon's Red Beard said:

BONERS ARE NOT MEANINGLESS IN LITERATURE!

 Perfection.  

i certainly hope Brienne doesn't die before she gets Jaime into bed.  But I hav honestly no idea.  I give even odds to she dies / he dies / they both live for the stoneheart thing. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Good job explaining why there is a definite attraction between these two all those who've contributed. I think if you are in any doubt regarding these two's romantic frisson take a read of Rose Papillon's humerous look at their relationship from the rethinking Romance threads. 

It begins on page 6 and is peppered throughout the first version of the thread. 

[Meera of Tarth]

14 hours ago, Maxxine said:

I don't remember him ever calling Brienne attractive. I know he stops commenting on how ugly she is, but I don't remember him going that far. Not saying you're wrong I just don't remember that,

In the context of what has happened between Jaime and Cersei, the fact that he doesn't help Cersei but helps Brienne doesn't say a lot to me. He's pissed at Cersei for the insults she says to him and for what Tyrion told him plus he knows he can't help her because he lost his sword hand. Despite this he still pines after Cersei and as you said desperately wants to be with her. Almost every chapter he's thinking about Cersei and comparing women to Cersei. That's the woman he wants romantically. On the other hand, he trusts Brienne in a way he can't trust Cersei right now so it wasn't anything to think about (even though she may be the one about to betray him). But that doesn't mean he wants her romantically. She's just shown she's trustworthy. That, to me, doesn't indicate romantic feelings.

Once again, context, she wanted him to kill his brother who he truly loves. So denying her in this context doesn't say a lot. And I understand the sword (and sheathe) symbolism. However, symbolism is something I've always taken an issue with since I first learned about back in middle school or high school or whenever it was. There's a lot of sword-giving in this series. When is it symbolism and when is a sword just a sword? It's hard to know. So I'm not going to say you're wrong. I'm just not there yet.

I definitely see it from Brienne's POV. She mixes up Jaime & Renly (someone who it is known she's attracted to) in her memories and calls for him while having fever dreams. Her attraction to him imo is obvious. I'm just not seeing it from him. From him I see companionship, not romantic partner. For him, it seems to be Cersei or bust especially considering he has noted that he wants to stay true to his vows now.

I agree with you that Jaime's feelings are not that obvious and, in fact, my personal view on them is that he is in the process of falling in love with her, but this process hasn't finished yet (whereas Brienne's has).

He has never said she is gorgeous or sexy, so I agree with you. However, he  has recognised she has astonishing eyes, and recognised her womanly shape in his dream. Well, maybe saying her eyes are beauty does not mean anything, but I think it's the first step to falling into her physically.

Like the Beauty and the Beast, the Beauty (Jaime in general, although Jaime is also the beast) doesn't fall in love with the outside side at the beginning. It's a very slow process. He will fall first  for her inner side and he is actually beginning to realise she is "kind of" beautiful. (The eyes), and gets angry when someone says she is ugly...

Concerning Cersei, I can't agree.he is thinking of her constantly but...how? He is becoming more and more disillusioned with her every chapter, and thinks she is a whore. I don't think Cersei is completely out of his heart, but in the process. Brienne is becoming the new figure of romantic interest, gradually replacing Cersei.

 

 

[Hoppy Hour]

Brienne is Dunk 2.0., so I see her ending up on some Kingsguard or Queensguard.

Though it might be released from chastity vows by the time the story ends.

[daccu65]

Actually, I'm looking forward to her marrying.  Perhaps Jaimie, perhaps Hyle, perhaps someone yet to be met.  I hope it's an honest affection.  However, I like the idea of the bedding ceremony going something like this.

Host:  "Let's get these two to bed!"

As the assembled men approach Brienne, intending to strip her and haul her to the bedchamber, she glares at them and growls, low in her throat.  The metal wine cup in her hand starts to deform in her grip.  All the men halt...abruptly.  An awkward silence ensues. 

"On the other hand," the host declares.  "It's a new age!  Why don't we celebrate with a new wedding custom?  Let's escort the couple, with dignity, to the bedchamber, leave some small gifts outside the door, and return to the great hall and get drunk, giving these two some privacy."

The assorted knights and lords respond...

"Excellent suggestion."

"It's time for new traditions."

"The old bedding ceremony was demeaning to the bride."

"...was a poor influence on the children."

"...barbaric practice."

"I'm sure the septon will approve."

"We can toast them in the morn."

 

 

[Tianzi]

5 minutes ago, daccu65 said:

Actually, I'm looking forward to her marrying.  Perhaps Jaimie, perhaps Hyle, perhaps someone yet to be met.  I hope it's an honest affection.  However, I like the idea of the bedding ceremony going something like this.

Host:  "Let's get these two to bed!"

As the assembled men approach Brienne, intending to strip her and haul her to the bedchamber, she glares at them and growls, low in her throat.  All the men halt...abruptly.  An awkward silence ensues.

"On the other hand," the host declares.  "It's a new age!  Why don't we celebrate with a new wedding custom?  Let's escort the couple, with dignity, to the bedchamber, leave some small gifts outside the door, and return to the great hall and get drunk, giving these two some privacy."

The assorted knights and lords respond...

"Excellent suggestion."

"It's time for new traditions."

"The old bedding ceremony was demeaning to the bride."

"...was a poor influence on the children."

"...barbaric practice."

"I'm sure the septon will approve."

"We can toast them in the morn."

This post is flawless.
 

[SevasTra82]

1 hour ago, Hoppy Hour said:

Brienne is Dunk 2.0., so I see her ending up on some Kingsguard or Queensguard.

Though it might be released from chastity vows by the time the story ends.

100% agree.  Brienne is an incarnation (literally and figuratively) of Dunk, and I sense her story following a similar pattern.  We never got a clear answer (yet) on who Dunk ended up marrying, but we know that it *did* eventually happen.  Same thing will happen with Brienne...maybe a short story after ASOIAF is over with in which we see a Brienne descendant, but it is never made quite clear on who the partner was.

[Guest]

Or it could go like this.

 

The men approach to strip Brienne and take her to the marital bed, when she removes the thick veil used for the wedding, exposing hideous scarring and a bulging eye.  The men stop at the affront, and one literally gets ill.  George looks to the new husband, "She's all yours" and the men laugh heartily.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Dunk had definitely his share of sex... KG or not, Brienne still can have something before being named such.

Or not.

Seriously, what's the problem with sex? Sex is good, is healthy. Having it or not doesn't define us but we, humans, are very sexual beings. All we do is based on sex. We're walking hormones. I think only us, monkeys and dolphins –animals widely known for being smart– have sex just for pleasure. So, sex also defines us as a separate species.

I'm all for Brienne having sex with Jaime and feeling pleased about it. And maybe Jaime can finally have sex with someone who doesn't use sex as a bargain nor needs him to procreate her revenge.

[HairGrowsBack]

I'd like to add, I'm sick of people arguing she can't have a romantic relationship (which, she kind of already is involved into) because she's been disfigured. Somehow I doubt many of those thinking that believe also Tyrion or Jon are done  for as well.

[daccu65]

I'm going to try to be both serious and back...somewhat...to the original topic.

Does anyone else see Brienne as something of an opposite representation of Tyrion?  Tyrion doesn't have the characteristics that a sexually attractive man is supposed to have: Height, strength, attractive and symmetrical features.  Brienne doesn't have the characteristics that a sexually attractive woman is supposed to have: Dainty facial features, soft hands, petite frame, and feminine curves.  

Tyrion refused to force his attentions on Sansa and I got the idea that he despairs that any woman will ever desire him.  He seems to think that any woman who shows any interest in him is going to be after his money or his position as a son in a great and wealthy house.  After the betting pool to bed her, I wonder if Brienne wonders if any man will ever desire her.  Perhaps she thinks that any man who shows any interest in her is going to do so for the novelty and/or the bragging rights as the man who bedded the large wench. 

Tyrion has a big chip on his shoulder, somewhat justified, because few seem to see his worth, only his small stature.  Brienne has a big chip on her shoulder, somewhat justified, because few seem to recognize her skill, only seeing her gender. 

While I don't see the romantic pursuits as major points in the series...and I definitely don't see Tyrion and Brienne being paired, I'd like to think that both of these characters, as well as potential romantic interests, are going to have to go through a period of breaking molds and expectations before they can become comfortable with each other.

 

[Equilibrium]

20 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Totally agree.

And she is The Maid of Tarth. The only Lady with the Maid as a nickname.

Mad Maid?

Malora Hightower.