Will Brienne end ASOIAF a virgin?

[Light a wight tonight]

Jaime/Brienne is the perfect subversion of the Beauty and the Beast trope.

I wish Brienne a joyous, healthy sex life. Why not? 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

1 hour ago, HairGrowsBack said:

I'd like to add, I'm sick of people arguing she can't have a romantic relationship (which, she kind of already is involved into) because she's been disfigured. Somehow I doubt many of those thinking that believe also Tyrion or Jon are done  for as well.

The worst is like they assume Jaime might care. He loves Tyrion no matter what. Why would he cares Brienne is hurt? She was wounded in battle. Jaime is a warrior: he would know how to appreciate that.

[Meera of Tarth]

5 minutes ago, JonCon's Red Beard said:

The worst is like they assume Jaime might care. He loves Tyrion no matter what. Why would he cares Brienne is hurt? She was wounded in battle. Jaime is a warrior: he would know how to appreciate that.

exactly

[A spoon of knife and fork]

3 hours ago, Hoppy Hour said:

Brienne is Dunk 2.0., so I see her ending up on some Kingsguard or Queensguard.

Though it might be released from chastity vows by the time the story ends.

How about you can't have sex except with other KG.  Then Jaime is KG too, perfect.

Another interesting possibility is NW, assuming that it still exists and is needed at the end.  I think there's that one gay couple at the wall.  Brienne would have to take her moontea.

[WSmith84]

2 hours ago, daccu65 said:

Actually, I'm looking forward to her marrying.  Perhaps Jaimie, perhaps Hyle, perhaps someone yet to be met.  I hope it's an honest affection.  However, I like the idea of the bedding ceremony going something like this.

Host:  "Let's get these two to bed!"

As the assembled men approach Brienne, intending to strip her and haul her to the bedchamber, she glares at them and growls, low in her throat.  The metal wine cup in her hand starts to deform in her grip.  All the men halt...abruptly.  An awkward silence ensues. 

"On the other hand," the host declares.  "It's a new age!  Why don't we celebrate with a new wedding custom?  Let's escort the couple, with dignity, to the bedchamber, leave some small gifts outside the door, and return to the great hall and get drunk, giving these two some privacy."

The assorted knights and lords respond...

"Excellent suggestion."

"It's time for new traditions."

"The old bedding ceremony was demeaning to the bride."

"...was a poor influence on the children."

"...barbaric practice."

"I'm sure the septon will approve."

"We can toast them in the morn."

 

 

If only we had a like button on this forum....

[Guest]

1 hour ago, daccu65 said:

I'm going to try to be both serious and back...somewhat...to the original topic.

Does anyone else see Brienne as something of an opposite representation of Tyrion?  Tyrion doesn't have the characteristics that a sexually attractive man is supposed to have: Height, strength, attractive and symmetrical features.  Brienne doesn't have the characteristics that a sexually attractive woman is supposed to have: Dainty facial features, soft hands, petite frame, and feminine curves.  

Tyrion refused to force his attentions on Sansa and I got the idea that he despairs that any woman will ever desire him.  He seems to think that any woman who shows any interest in him is going to be after his money or his position as a son in a great and wealthy house.  After the betting pool to bed her, I wonder if Brienne wonders if any man will ever desire her.  Perhaps she thinks that any man who shows any interest in her is going to do so for the novelty and/or the bragging rights as the man who bedded the large wench. 

Tyrion has a big chip on his shoulder, somewhat justified, because few seem to see his worth, only his small stature.  Brienne has a big chip on her shoulder, somewhat justified, because few seem to recognize her skill, only seeing her gender. 

While I don't see the romantic pursuits as major points in the series...and I definitely don't see Tyrion and Brienne being paired, I'd like to think that both of these characters, as well as potential romantic interests, are going to have to go through a period of breaking molds and expectations before they can become comfortable with each other.

 

It is interesting that the disfigured Tyrion is sex obsessed and gets it all the time, while the disfigured female never talks openly about it and has none of it (so far).  Is that sexist?  I would argue not as they are just two characters in a book series filled with all kinds of sex, but....interesting....

[HairGrowsBack]

25 minutes ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

It is interesting that the disfigured Tyrion is sex obsessed and gets it all the time, while the disfigured female never talks openly about it and has none of it (so far).  Is that sexist?  I would argue not as they are just two characters in a book series filled with all kinds of sex, but....interesting....

No, Brienne and Tyrion have very different personalities : Brienne is very shy and openly insecure, and she doesn't trust men (rightfully so, as she's been assaulted many times). Also, prostitution with female clientele is close to non existent in Westeros (not that Brienne would buy sex acts), whereas it's perfectly normal for men to have sex with whores (so Tyrion can easily get some).

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

No, Brienne and Tyrion have very different personalities : Brienne is very shy and openly insecure, and she doesn't trust men (rightfully so, as she's been assaulted many times). Also, prostitution with female clientele is close to non existent in Westeros (not that Brienne would buy sex acts), whereas it's perfectly normal for men to have sex with whores (so Tyrion can easily get some).

good points

[HexMachina]

Brienne is also not disfigured for most of the novels. 

[HairGrowsBack]

20 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Brienne is also not disfigured for most of the novels. 

Agreed, and who knows, maybe the Elder Brother does have mad healing skills ; not saying a miracle, but something marginally better.

[Tianzi]

1 hour ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

It is interesting that the disfigured Tyrion is sex obsessed and gets it all the time, while the disfigured female never talks openly about it and has none of it (so far).  Is that sexist?  I would argue not as they are just two characters in a book series filled with all kinds of sex, but....interesting....

Different personalities and double standard. Tyrion having sex is 'whoring around', Brienne would be 'whoring herself' (and leading the lifestyle she does she has enough problems). Also, women are conditioned to become pretty sex objects, at which Brienne fails miserably.
 

[talvikorppi]

21 hours ago, Maxxine said:

While I agree that Jaime see past the surface with Brienne, nothing he does seem romantic. He starts to respect her and regard her as his equal and begins to defend her because of that. But I haven't seen anything indicating romantic attraction on his part. I think they will have a deep bond like best friends not romantic partners. 

This all hinges on the definition of "romantic". The modern (American?) meaning seems to be boyfriend-girlfriend relationship and sex, but the original medieaval idea of romantic love is idealised and unfulfilled love. No sex. Something pure and unphysical and spiritual.

In this light, Brienne and Jaime are the most romantic couple in the saga. Seven hells, each of them is romantic on their own, put them together and it's off the scale romantic, in the original sense of the word.

Modern jaded "romantics" like us readers might want to have Brienne and Jaime to have sex, but they might not consider it... appropriate, even if they physically had the hots. It would not be honourable before a septons say so.

Jaime is very attracted to Brienne romantically, in the original sense of the word. They have a deep bond and already are romantic partners. Not boyfriend-girlfriend-sex kind of "romantic" like Jaime and Cersei, but something deeper and more spiritual.

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Brienne is disfigured and also is Jaime, in a way. And he's the one she wants. What's Jaime gonna do? point at her with his nonexistent finger? The first thing he said when he saw her were words of concern.

[Maxxine]

1 hour ago, talvikorppi said:

This all hinges on the definition of "romantic". The modern (American?) meaning seems to be boyfriend-girlfriend relationship and sex, but the original medieaval idea of romantic love is idealised and unfulfilled love. No sex. Something pure and unphysical and spiritual.

In this light, Brienne and Jaime are the most romantic couple in the saga. Seven hells, each of them is romantic on their own, put them together and it's off the scale romantic, in the original sense of the word.

Modern jaded "romantics" like us readers might want to have Brienne and Jaime to have sex, but they might not consider it... appropriate, even if they physically had the hots. It would not be honourable before a septons say so.

Jaime is very attracted to Brienne romantically, in the original sense of the word. They have a deep bond and already are romantic partners. Not boyfriend-girlfriend-sex kind of "romantic" like Jaime and Cersei, but something deeper and more spiritual.

 

If we're talking about the original definition as you described then I completely agree with you. When I said romantic I meant the modern definition as in sexual attraction, which I'm not getting from Jaime.

[talvikorppi]

9 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

If we're talking about the original definition as you described then I completely agree with you. When I said romantic I meant the modern definition as in sexual attraction, which I'm not getting from Jaime.

Yes.

Old definition romantic: Jaime and Brienne are a couple.

Newer definition romantic, which includes sexual attraction: not so much.

Brienne seems to be also sexually attracted to Jaime, but Jaime isn't yet... But I wouldn't rule it out sometime in future. He already admires how she moves when sword-fighting and sees her astonishing blue eyes. In the beginning, he saw her as just freakish, big and ugly, but along the way he's beginning to see beneath the surface - she could almost be a beauty in bad light, and has a more womanly shape, and she's gentler than Cersei.

[Chickren]

1 hour ago, talvikorppi said:

This all hinges on the definition of "romantic". The modern (American?) meaning seems to be boyfriend-girlfriend relationship and sex, but the original medieaval idea of romantic love is idealised and unfulfilled love. No sex. Something pure and unphysical and spiritual.

In this light, Brienne and Jaime are the most romantic couple in the saga. Seven hells, each of them is romantic on their own, put them together and it's off the scale romantic, in the original sense of the word.

Modern jaded "romantics" like us readers might want to have Brienne and Jaime to have sex, but they might not consider it... appropriate, even if they physically had the hots. It would not be honourable before a septons say so.

Jaime is very attracted to Brienne romantically, in the original sense of the word. They have a deep bond and already are romantic partners. Not boyfriend-girlfriend-sex kind of "romantic" like Jaime and Cersei, but something deeper and more spiritual.

 

You're actually muddling the concept of courtly love with romantic love here. Romantic love has never been required to be "unfulfilled", by which I assume you mean unconsummated. And courtly love (which I think is what you're actually referring to) often encompasses sexual desire, just sexual desire that hasn't been fulfilled...or hasn't been fulfilled yet. There's actually a lot more ambiguity to classical courtly love than people realize.

Regardless, even in the "more spiritual" relationship context you're referring to here, I'd say Jaime and Brienne have too much explicitly sexual context and interaction to fit in any of those categories. Martin wrote scenes with both of them expressing sexual attraction to the other. It's a ship that's sailed. 

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

How is Jaime not romantic towards Brienne?

He dreamed of her, naked.

He feels aroused by her naked body.

He rescued her from being killed by a bear.

He has –although mentally– complimented her eyes.

He gave her a sword to defend HIS honour.

It's a book. Jaime –or Martin– won't say "yes, I have romantic feelings for Brienne". It's up to us readers to figure it out, and up to the writer to give the clues.

I've read many people saying "no, they won't because Martin [...]". Martin is a self-confessed romantic. He really digs his romantic tropes, and he really seems to like the old "innocent maiden falls for the rough guy". This isn't different.

There is only two people in the world Jaime has made any confessions: Cat Stark and Brienne. Cat is a symbol of something Jaime never had: a mother. Cat plays a mother figure through the book, and this is the first hint we have of Jaime lacking any kind of "feminine" tenderness in his life. We know he fucks Cersei but Cersei offers a selfish love, not to say her decisions have denied Jaime the chance of being a father despite he's the biological father of her three children. This is the first separation of them.

And then, he meets Brienne. If Cat is somehow "The Mother", Brienne is "The Maiden" for Jaime's "Warrior". Jaime finally opens up to her in a way he never did with Cersei: he has never told Cersei any truth about anything.

Now Cat is out for revenge, hes not longer a merciful Mother. Jaime has also lost his hand, which makes him  not a Warrior anymore. Brienne won't remain the Maiden either.

 

[Meera of Tarth]

14 minutes ago, JonCon's Red Beard said:

How is Jaime not romantic towards Brienne?

He dreamed of her, naked.

He feels aroused by her naked body.

He rescued her from being killed by a bear.

He has –although mentally– complimented her eyes.

He gave her a sword to defend HIS honour.

It's a book. Jaime –or Martin– won't say "yes, I have romantic feelings for Brienne". It's up to us readers to figure it out, and up to the writer to give the clues.

I've read many people saying "no, they won't because Martin [...]". Martin is a self-confessed romantic. He really digs his romantic tropes, and he really seems to like the old "innocent maiden falls for the rough guy". This isn't different.

There is only two people in the world Jaime has made any confessions: Cat Stark and Brienne. Cat is a symbol of something Jaime never had: a mother. Cat plays a mother figure through the book, and this is the first hint we have of Jaime lacking any kind of "feminine" tenderness in his life. We know he fucks Cersei but Cersei offers a selfish love, not to say her decisions have denied Jaime the chance of being a father despite he's the biological father of her three children. This is the first separation of them.

And then, he meets Brienne. If Cat is somehow "The Mother", Brienne is "The Maiden" for Jaime's "Warrior". Jaime finally opens up to her in a way he never did with Cersei: he has never told Cersei any truth about anything.

Now Cat is out for revenge, hes not longer a merciful Mother. Jaime has also lost his hand, which makes him  not a Warrior anymore. Brienne won't remain the Maiden either.

 

Excellent post. No words. It can't be described better.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

http://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/post/53895362854/jaime-x-brienne-theres-nothing-platonic-about

This is a good post explaining it better.

I would like to add something:

Jaime is a man of his time, and along being a warrior, is also expected of him to be sexually wiser than a woman and father children. We know him being a warrior is a sham (he was named KG out of spite), and while he is biologically a father, he was never father for his children. These two, denied by Cersei.

His own sexuality was also denied. BY CERSEI. I think it's quite obvious that Cersei was more sexually curious than Jaime when they were children. She pretty much says it when she says Jaime's only interest back then were her, dogs and swords. Jaime doesn't seem to look at sex in the same way as Robert or Brandon Stark, and I'm sure, had he married other woman, he would have been loyal and faithful not because it was his "duty" but because that's something he actually believes to.

Nevertheless, he seems to have missed a part in his life in which he could experience sex freely. Sex, for him, seemed to have been more to either please Cersei or to be pleased by Cersei for her to get things. He couldn't explore what things he wanted or liked. Also, whatever are your position on virginity, virginity is important for many people. Why wouldn't? Is an important aspect of people's lives. For Jaime, didn't look like it was a big thing, even though he does have the classic ideals of "belonging to the other one". Jaime is indeed a romantic believer of courtly love.

So, Jaime's "kink" seems to be the fact Brienne is a maiden. Not because he's some sort of maniac that will go and have sex with virgins, but because that's also a part of him that was denied, being "a man" in a sexual encounter, being the one leading or teaching, so to speak. That's why he's protective of Brienne and her virtue: he knows it's important for her (it wasn't for Cersei), and that's why he answers "innocence" when asked what he wants in a woman. Not because he wanted a virgin to marry, but because he wanted sex to really matter for the both of them. That's one of the reasons he does feel sexually attracted to Brienne. For Brienne, sex isn't a way to get things. Brienne only needs to ask and Jaime does (seriously!) while Cersei has to bribe him. Sex with Cersei has lost meaning for Jaime. He now wants to experience a more "pure" sense of sex with Brienne, even if he's not yet fully aware.

[Meera of Tarth]

Because with Cersei he has not experienced true love, courtly love, it was a game since the beginning. They may have been extremely close and so he cares for her, but with Brienne he is virtually naked, in spirit.Something new.