Will Brienne end ASOIAF a virgin?

[Ashur]

GRRM is not fond of changing character lives into better ones. Most characters' good times are well behind, and most of them are crawling into the deeper, darker passages of their lifes. Jaime's hand is not coming back, Arya's innocence is lost forever, etc. That's why I'm cannot see Brienne having a nice, romantic sexual intercourse. That's a very good thing, but very good things just don't happen in ASOAIF anymore. I mean, I'm sure that some of the storylines will end more or less well. But that's not like characters having super positive experiences. I mean, Brienne's past is probably better than what's to come. She has already broked the oath, probably. She has her path, and would walk that way til the end. Too late for discovering romance.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I don't think you understand GRRM's writing at all. If you think it is ALL doom and gloom and no one will ever know a glimmer of happiness ever again. You kinda missed a huge chunk of the story, the writers intention and where this is all going. 

A lot of people make this mistake, and assume he is writing a wholey dark story where everyone dies and no one will ever know happiness. 

He isn't, this story is actually not as subverted as first appears. 

[Ashur]

Maybe I was exaggerating a bit. Anyway, I don't see Brienne's life changing for the better, or even having a romantic affair.

[Equilibrium]

5 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

This thread reminds me how much I love Brienne as a character, and also how much I enjoy her chapters (yes, unpopular opinion on that front!)

I don't know why is that unpopular, I always liked "adventuring in Riverlands" chapters. They kinda provide the contrast and break of the politics and power-gaming chapters. 

As for the AFFC, Brienne chapters are vastly superior to Dorne or even Iron Islands, because those are more politics, but now of people we don't know and who are intangible at the moment, while Brienne's adventures are welcome relief and much more tied to the previous books, which is very important in AFFC since about half of it is really tied to main plot at that time, probably biggest error George made with the split.

I like Brienne very much because she is really good person but feels different then the rigid Eddard. Also she has the advantage over Eddard because she is still discovering the world and unlike Eddard hasn't meddled in high politics exceeding his moral and intellectual capacities, so Brienne doesn't cause nearly as many facepalms our Lord Stark does.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

“I think you need to have some hope,” he said Wednesday of how he envisions the end of the series. “We all yearn for happy endings in a sense. Myself, I’m attracted to the bittersweet ending.”

Many people have misunderstood Martin's words about "bittersweet" ending. They get overridden by the "bitter" and forget the "sweet". Harry Potter ended up in a bittersweet ending, yet, Harry married Ginny and had three children. Idem with LotR. Sam ended up happily married.

He's stating his characters will have a happy ending (those who survive), but they won't have all of it. Maybe Sansa does marry Sandor but he ends up crippled or dies soon after, I dunno. A bittersweet ending would be Jaime giving up Casterly Rock, seeing all of his children die, and moving to Essos but happily married to Brienne.

[Equilibrium]

39 minutes ago, JonCon's Red Beard said:

“I think you need to have some hope,” he said Wednesday of how he envisions the end of the series. “We all yearn for happy endings in a sense. Myself, I’m attracted to the bittersweet ending.”

Many people have misunderstood Martin's words about "bittersweet" ending. They get overridden by the "bitter" and forget the "sweet". Harry Potter ended up in a bittersweet ending, yet, Harry married Ginny and had three children. Idem with LotR. Sam ended up happily married.

He's stating his characters will have a happy ending (those who survive), but they won't have all of it. Maybe Sansa does marry Sandor but he ends up crippled or dies soon after, I dunno. A bittersweet ending would be Jaime giving up Casterly Rock, seeing all of his children die, and moving to Essos but happily married to Brienne.

As I have always argue, both Harry Potter and LotR are far from bittersweet for me, yeah if you think about the endings really hard, there is little bitter but it's nowhere as bitter as a good lemoncake. First Law for example is what I would call bittersweet. 

Then again we don't know what Martin considers bittersweet, but I still hope based on his earlier work that he is not too much on the sweet side. Standard fantasy ending or even too much people getting happily ever after would retroactively ruin the books.

I really hate that he said that as I hoped for a good downer ending for ASOIAF having read his early work, it would be nice way to crown the career. And I really like downer endings, nothing like some existential despair to give you perspective and brighten up your day. Tragedy was frequently considered highest form of art and rightly so.

[LongRider]

With the severe beating, face biting, and coming face to face with LSH who was once a person she respected and swore a solemn vow to, I'd say Bri has started into the 'bitter' of the bittersweet phase.  How sweet can it get for her?  Biter's chomping has made her scarred and most likely, she would consider herself even uglier than before.  

But what will Jaime think?  While I don't feel GRRM bases the worth of his female characters on their outer beauty, or what others may think of that, still, it is an issue for her.  Jaime had come to see the beauty within of Bri, and was recognizing her physical beauty too.

Cersei may be the more classical beauty of Westeros, but Bri had beauty of her own; incredible blue eyes, the physical ability and grace to wield a sword, and a strong physical stature.  Not classical beauty true, but beauty to find none the less. 

Perhaps the 'sweet' for Bri will be along the line of learning that another can love her with all her real and imagined flaws.  A love she can reciprocate, including some 'ohh la la!!'

[Marcus Agrippa]

Harry potter's ending was nonsensical. Just an opinion!

[Florina Laufeyson]

On 4/12/2016 at 4:28 PM, JonCon's Red Beard said:

It depends on what you define as "romantic". Considering this is literature, we need to examine the evidence Martin is presenting.

First, we see Jaime going from saying things like "I love Cersei, she's so perfect!" to "Brienne is not that bad" and "Brienne is attractive too". This shows a progression in how he perceives Brienne not as a fellow warrior but as a woman.

Martin presents so many parallels between Jaime and Brienne and Cersei. Jaime wants desperately to return to Cersei, yet, he turns back for Brienne when he realised she was in danger. And when Cersei asked her for help, he refused to return with her (yet, she followed Brienne easily).

The scene when they are in the White Tower is also telling. Cersei arrives and demands Jaime to kill Tyrion and offers sex. She does as much as trying to undress him and he also says no and rejects her. Cersei makes fun of him and his masculinity when he can't get hard. Yet, Jaime, willingly, offers Brienne his sword, being a sword a symbol of masculinity. He trusts that thing it defines him as a man to Brienne. He feels comfortable, as a man, with Brienne.

What Martin wants to represent is that both Brienne and Jaime are already attracted to each other, but they haven't realised how much or in what degree. Brienne is aware she sees Jaime as a "god", but not that she's in love. In the same way, Jaime hasn't yet figured out the protectiveness he feels about Brienne is love. We have been told before the characters. We'll get there.

 

This is a good post and pretty much my thoughts on the subject. Those two are mad for each other, they just dont quite realize it just yet. They will. Jaime turned his back on Cersei, Brienne has chosen the sword. Once they meet again, it will dawn on them what they really feel for each other.

On 4/13/2016 at 2:32 PM, JonCon's Red Beard said:

Brienne is disfigured and also is Jaime, in a way. And he's the one she wants. What's Jaime gonna do? point at her with his nonexistent finger? The first thing he said when he saw her were words of concern.

Jaime values honor, even if he feels he has none. Brienne reminds him of that. 

[HexMachina]

5 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

As I have always argue, both Harry Potter and LotR are far from bittersweet for me, yeah if you think about the endings really hard, there is little bitter but it's nowhere as bitter as a good lemoncake. First Law for example is what I would call bittersweet. 

Then again we don't know what Martin considers bittersweet, but I still hope based on his earlier work that he is not too much on the sweet side. Standard fantasy ending or even too much people getting happily ever after would retroactively ruin the books.

I really hate that he said that as I hoped for a good downer ending for ASOIAF having read his early work, it would be nice way to crown the career. And I really like downer endings, nothing like some existential despair to give you perspective and brighten up your day. Tragedy was frequently considered highest form of art and rightly so.

To me LotR is the perfect example of bittersweet. Yes, the ultimate goal from the beginning is achieved, but at what cost? So much is lost, great heroes dead, the world diminished, magic fading, the elves departing, and even the Shire corrupted - it's very notable that the last blows of the war are struck in the once innocent and idyllic Shire. And of course, our protagonist is badly damaged inside. He is suffering PTSD, so much so that the very thing he has been struggling to save and protect (The Shire) no longer brings him joy and he is forced to leave Middle Earth altogether. Tolkein fought in the War, and I think his experiences there, and his understanding of how War changes people when they return is one of the more powerful parts of the story. And of course you have the rather dark and depressing view that evil would have ultimately triumphed if not for an act of pity/mercy by Bilbo so many years ago. Otherwise Smeagol would have been killed, and there wouldn't have been the tussle at the edge of the Fire. Frodo would not have destroyed the ring.

The First Law I don't see as Bittersweet so much as (intentionally) cynical.

Now the Silmarillion, that is FILLED with tragedy darkness and downer endings  

[LongRider]

51 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Now the Silmarillion, that is FILLED with tragedy darkness and downer endings  

All of that and for me a slog, a long hard slog. 

[Equilibrium]

11 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Now the Silmarillion, that is FILLED with tragedy darkness and downer endings  

And still because of the encyclopedic nature, effect is somewhat wasted.

Children of Hurin on the other hand, THAT is the ending to my liking

But Martin's characters aren't very likely to fret about accidental incest

[Equilibrium]

11 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

To me LotR is the perfect example of bittersweet. Yes, the ultimate goal from the beginning is achieved, but at what cost? So much is lost, great heroes dead, the world diminished, magic fading, the elves departing, and even the Shire corrupted - it's very notable that the last blows of the war are struck in the once innocent and idyllic Shire. And of course, our protagonist is badly damaged inside. He is suffering PTSD, so much so that the very thing he has been struggling to save and protect (The Shire) no longer brings him joy and he is forced to leave Middle Earth altogether. Tolkein fought in the War, and I think his experiences there, and his understanding of how War changes people when they return is one of the more powerful parts of the story. And of course you have the rather dark and depressing view that evil would have ultimately triumphed if not for an act of pity/mercy by Bilbo so many years ago. Otherwise Smeagol would have been killed, and there wouldn't have been the tussle at the edge of the Fire. Frodo would not have destroyed the ring.

The First Law I don't see as Bittersweet so much as (intentionally) cynical.

Our definitions of bittersweet are radically different

World survived, it started to heal, Aragorn became king and married the woman he loved, Pippin and Merry got to chill in Gondor, respected and celebrated and all the rest got asylum in the West, which is the dream of everyone from the war-torn lands.

As I said First Law is in my opinion perfect definition of bittersweet, they all got kinda good ending but world is as fucked as before. It can be reversed with heroes sacrificing themselves and world really coming on top. Even some combination and all in between is possible.

 

[The Ice Wolf of Loki]

Bittersweet for both Jamie and Brienne would be them realising their love of each other and having a child but Jamie dying before the child is born. Sweet because they they were able to be together and bitter because it couldn't last.

I think Brienne and Cersei are on a collision course over Jamie. At the moment it seems to her like everything is being taken from her imagine how she will react if Brienne takes her place in Jamie's heart.

[Meera of Tarth]

9 minutes ago, The Ice Wolf of Loki said:

Bittersweet for both Jamie and Brienne would be them realising their love of each other and having a child but Jamie dying before the child is born. Sweet because they they were able to be together and bitter because it couldn't last.

I think Brienne and Cersei are on a collision course over Jamie. At the moment it seems to her like everything is being taken from her imagine how she will react if Brienne takes her place in Jamie's heart.

Good one.

Another one: Brienne and Jaime never get intimate because one of them dies first, but not after having said to each other what they feel 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

21 hours ago, The Ice Wolf of Loki said:

Bittersweet for both Jamie and Brienne would be them realising their love of each other and having a child but Jamie dying before the child is born. Sweet because they they were able to be together and bitter because it couldn't last.

This is exactly what I see happening. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 15/04/2016 at 5:33 PM, Ashur said:

Maybe I was exaggerating a bit. Anyway, I don't see Brienne's life changing for the better, or even having a romantic affair.

Why? 

[Ashur]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Why? 

I have said it before, the last thing we know about Brienne is that she went to meet Jaime in Pennytree. She said that she has Sansa Stark. She probably is betraying Jaime, and will bring him to LSH. Any chance of Jaime and her having a romance has already passed, and I never though there was a real chance, anyway. Besides, I cannot imagine Brienne marrying someone. She is so proud, sutbborn and negative towards marriage. Can you imagine her returning to Tarth and marrying a man chosen by her father? She is also so serious serious towards romatic affairs, and I cannot imagine her having some unimportant, mundane affair with some man.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think she is very respectful of marriage, and would love to be married. But that she only wants to do so when she meets a man whom she loves and who loves her, and wishes to marry her for herself.  I don't think any relationship she has with Jaime would be unimportant or mundane, far from it! 

What is clear in the text is that these two have romantic feelings towards one another, and that they are indeed falling in love. I think it would be a poor story teller who develops such a thing, only to abandon it without conclusion. It goes against all narrative structure, and not in a good way. 

[Meera of Tarth]

4 hours ago, Ashur said:

I have said it before, the last thing we know about Brienne is that she went to meet Jaime in Pennytree. She said that she has Sansa Stark. She probably is betraying Jaime, and will bring him to LSH. Any chance of Jaime and her having a romance has already passed, and I never though there was a real chance, anyway. Besides, I cannot imagine Brienne marrying someone. She is so proud, sutbborn and negative towards marriage. Can you imagine her returning to Tarth and marrying a man chosen by her father? She is also so serious serious towards romatic affairs, and I cannot imagine her having some unimportant, mundane affair with some man.

She is negative towards marriage because she wants to be a "knight" and thinks that if she marries she won't have that chance. Now, she is living something similar to the life she wants, despite being rejected by society and suffering for it. And he said no to Hyle Hunt, because, obviously, she doesn't want an arranged marriage, that would be even worse: she would stop doing what she likes and apart from that, would have to live as the spouse of someone he doesn't like (in terms of attraction)

But I don't think she will marry because of all these arguments