Maxxine

Quentyn - Dead? Alive? Dragonrider?

74 posts in this topic

So I know this topic has been discussed but I just finished my reread of the relevant chapters and wanted to add my two cents. There's definitely an argument to be made for each option I presented in the title and I don't think any of them can be completely discounted without some more evidence. Here what I think is relevant information and arguments for each option.

Dead - We have Quentyn's POV and see him burning.He himself says "his hand . . . all of him was burning." Generally, you don't survive all of you burning. However, there's is the issue of dragonriders at least having some fire resistance. I know GRRM said Dany surviving the pyre in Games is not a normal occurrence and she is not fire immune, but it still seems obvious that she still has some resistance. Her hair was completely aflame in the fighting pit, which would generally lead to severe burns on your scalp and face. But in her chapter her burns are just not a big deal. I believe she talks about burns on her hands but they seem very minor considered her whole head was on fire. So maybe Quent was just on fire and not burning similar to Dany when she rode Drogon. His friends, who were there with him and would have seen it think he's dead . Yronwood is cradling the body and Drink is trying to defend it (I'll have more to say about them later). Later on in Barristan's chapter the first sentence is "the Dornish prince was three days dying." 

Alive - Quentyn was burned in way that made him unrecognizable, obviously leaving the door open for the person burned to not be Quentyn. His friends are also acting weird especially Yronwood. The way Yronwood acts during the conversation with Barristan is completely different from the way he acts every other time we see him. He's taking charge and behaves more intelligently than he does at any other point. Maybe this is the true him and the rest of the book was just an act or maybe the death of Quentyn  changed him. Drink is acting completely unreasonable in blaming Dany for his friend's dumbass plan to steal a dragon, but acting unreasonable after watching your friend burn to death so this may mean nothing. Except for the fact that Quentyn says early on that Drink never actually mourns the dead, but can play the part if need be. So maybe Drink's act is this or maybe just seeing his best friend brought out actual mourning. Plus, the way they tell the story seems like they're trying to figure out what story to tell, which is suspicious since they were there. Though this reaction could just be because they are distraught and don't really want to talk about it. The biggest issue with him being alive is who is the dead body? A lot of theories have been that Tattered Prince is the one who actually died. I don't know about this just because that means that Quent would have had to take TP's place. I really don't care how average looking they both are, Quentyn wouldn't be able to pull off the ploy because the sellswords in the Windblown still know what TP looks like and even if Quent and TP look similar (which I'm not sure they do), TP is much older so they're not going to be able switch and no one notice.

Dragonrider - If he's a dragonrider he would have to be alive, so take everything in the preceding paragraph and include it here. It could be argued that before Rhaegel set Quentyn afire, Viserion was listening to him. It's just vague enough of paragraph to leave the option open. Plus, he does have the "blood of the dragon" to at least give him the possibility to be able to ride a dragon even though that blood was from 3 or 4 generations ago. [edit] Also the name of his last chapter is The Dragontamer. GRRM has said the chapter names mean something. So either the chapter was named that because he ultimately became a dragon tamer or it was a troll. However, if he's alive and rode out of the pit on Viserion, I feel like someone would have saw him at some point. It's not Drogon carrying Dany miles away. Viserion is still in Meereen and from Tyrion's sample chapter

Spoiler

Viserion is circling the battlefield. If he had a rider someone would  have seen him here. Even though it can be asked why Viserion decides to stay when Rhaegal just wanted to eat and then went about his business. Is it because Quentyn is making him stay?

Personally, I'm going with Quentyn is dead, though I'll concede there's a slim chance he is alive but I can't give him dragonrider. I'll freely admit that this is mostly based on my personal feelings about Quentyn. I don't like him because he has some of the dumbest plans in the book. Idk if he's stupid, naive, or both. First, what is up with men thinking they can just show up and Dany is going to marry them. Victarion/Euron have the same plan but at least they're bringing something to the table to help her (The Iron Fleet). Quentyn only brings two people and a piece of paper that doesn't even mention her with him when she's surrounded by enemies. And seems genuinely surprised when she says no. Did he really think this was going to work? He didn't even have good looks going for him. THEN he thought he  could steal dragons with a whip, an ox cart, and some mutton. Winged, fire-breathing dragons who didn't know him with a whip,an ox-cart, and some mutton. I'm sorry but you deserve for that plan to fail. Plus, I feel that there are only so many deaths/resurrections/not-really-dead you can have in one series before it becomes too much and GRRM imo has already reached that point with Beric, Lady Stoneheart, the Cleganes, Aegon, JonCon, & most likely Jon. However, I do understand the point of Quentyn should be alive because we went through a whole book of Quentyn without him serving a purpose except to free the dragons, which could have been done by anyone. We didn't need a POV character for it.

So what do other people think. Is Quentyn dead? Alive? A Dragonrider? Feel free to add to any of the arguments I noted above and give your prediction or your desire for what Quentyn's fate was.

Edited by Maxxine

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28 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

 

  Hide contents

 

So what do other people think. Is Quentyn dead? Alive? A Dragonrider? Feel free to add to any of the arguments I noted above and give your prediction or your desire for what Quentyn's fate was.

Quentyn is Dead. He died a horrible, painful, suffering three day death by dragonfire 

5 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Quentyn is dead if someone took a dargon it was probably the tattered price

At the end of dance,  Quentyn's surviving crew is sent by Barristan to try to turn the Tattered Prince. We know from the Tyrion winds chapter that the Windblown do in fact switch sides and take the peace hostages back to Meereen 

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1 hour ago, Maxxine said:

So what do other people think.

I’m gonna go with Quentyn is dead. He may have subdued Viserion, but there was another angry dragon on the loose and it seems to me that Quentyn was lit on fire before he knew what hit him.

And then a hot wind buffeted him and he heard the sound of leathern wings and the air was full of ash and cinders and a monstrous roar went echoing off the scorched and blackened bricks and he could hear his friends shouting wildly. Gerris was calling out his name, over and over, and the big man was bellowing, "Behind you, behind you, behind you!"

Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal.

When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.

Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream.

1 hour ago, Maxxine said:

from Tyrion's sample chapter

As to the Tyrion II chapter, I am a bit miffed that in order to read it I gotta git the app. So, I haven't read it.

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2 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

As to the Tyrion II chapter, I am a bit miffed that in order to read it I gotta git the app. So, I haven't read it.

 

If it means anything, the app itself is free and the sample chapters are one of the few things within the app you don't have to pay for in order to access.

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Just now, Maxxine said:

If it means anything, the app itself is free and the sample chapters are one of the few things within the app you don't have to pay for in order to access.

Thanks for the info. :)

<chuckle> it's a matter of principle. No, just no. :closedeyes:

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Definitely dead...No doubt about it.  I do get the people who say why the POV if that was all that happened with "his story".  The thing is, there are 2 more books that haven't been written.  Surely the purpose will become clear--if not, it's terrible writing.  

You can say whatever you want about GRRM's writing eccentricities, but he's not a bad writer.  If I had to guess, I'd speculate that it was mostly to flesh out the Dorne side of the story and also for Dany's story line in regards to her future interactions with the Dornish.

I agree, OP with what you said about the whole "people that were supposed to be dead and really aren't" theme is getting a little tired, but also, there is just no real evidence for him to be alive.  We're getting all of this info from Barristan for heaven sake.  If he's another "unreliable narrorator", then who is reliable?

Edited by Wolf of the Steppes

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I want to believe he's alive. His chapter's were so anti climactic that it would give them more meaning other than to simply free the dragons.

I also want to give Doran more credit that his goofy plan had more substance that what was originally thought.

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As dead as Ned.

Which is a shame... as far as I am concerned, he was probably the most relatable and "normal" character.

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I can see him still being alive. I keep thinking that if there is any sort of fire resistance, it would come from Dornish blood, not Targ blood. Who else but the Rhoynar would have had a reason to infuse their blood with some kind of water magic to better withstand the chief weapon of dragons?

And no, Barry is not a reliable narrator because the victim had been burned beyond recognition. The only reason he thinks it's Q is because Arch and Drink say it is. And there is the convo down in the cells where Arch keeps cutting Drink off whenever he starts to speak of what happened.

It would also be perfectly consistent for  Martin to end another book with an ambiguous death. After all, we've had: Arya in GoT, Jaime in CoK, the Hound(?) in SoS and Brienne in FfC.

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Dead. 200% dead I'd say. Besides... Who'd want him alive??! He'd seem a decent person by asoiaf standars but boring as hell, I hated his chapters! A total waste of words, space and time. Just an opinion... 

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Face it, he's dead.

There's nothing ahead with Quantyn's plot aside from him being useful  as a corpse to the plot.

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Um, obviously dead.

I'd say Martin finally learned to do the same as the wildlings - burn his dead to prevent them from ever coming back.
 

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I love the idea Quentyn went all that way to die by dragon fire. I liked that he believed he had the blood of the dragon only to fail a trial by fire. It made me laugh, a bit. Once I'd detached myself from the vivid mental picture of burning alive, of course. And I like the fact that he never got to realise his dreams/ambitions and instead, made a small contribution to somebody else's arc. It's sad but it gives the story a bit more gravitas. 

I really don't want too many characters faking their deaths. Just like with our Beric, every time they die and turn up not dead, they lose 'something', literally and figuratively. I'm cool with simply not knowing, ala Davos. I also don't want an abundance of characters like quentyn who simply put, aren't interesting enough. Where he went, who he met and what happened are all interesting. He as a man is... I don't want to say boring, I mean, I'm no party animal either but would you really want much more from the guy?

Simply put, I think it would be bad taste to bring him back. His death makes the rest of the Dornish plot all the more interesting.   

  

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It is not that he needs to be brought back to life, he may not be dead on the first place.

1, Most living creature die in dragonfire within a split second, it is so hot. Yet Quentin had all the time to observe his whip burning then his hand, then his body burning. It is more likely that Rheagal was roasting someone nearby, Quentin was too close and his whip/clothes cought fire accidentaly. This hurts too, but it may not be lethal.

2, The body Barristan saw was unrecognizable.

3, Drink and Arch were clearly hiding something.

4, Also: second dance.

 

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The only crackpot theory that I ever made up is about Quentyn. I'm 100% sure about the guy dying in Dany's bed is the same lad sent by Doran. The problem is, I do not think that lad to be Quentyn at all. I'm a bit too tired to explain all the theory, but you can check this in order to analyze Quent's trip. Anyway, my conclusion about the trip is that the Yronwoods had an alternative plan, which consists in Cletus leaving in order to join (F)Aegon and the Golden Company. We know that House Yronwood supported all three Blackfyre rebelions. The incident with pirates is very strange. Besides, Quent actually didn't see Cletus corpse. IMO, Gerris Drinkwater is also aware of the trick. All the events leading to Quentyn thinking in stealing the dragons are equally odd. Interestingly, we learn in Arianne's POV that Doran did let a book about dragons in her tower cell. A book that sounds technical and that was disdainly put apart by Arianne. We know that "scientific" dragon books are rare, in Tyrion's words. It is clearly odd that Quentyn wasn't given that book. It could have been either a great wedding present for Dany, or a practical guide about how to steal a dragon. We also know that Quentyn regularly receives books from his father.  

My opinion is that Lord Anders Yronwood is intending to deceive Doran Martell, but Doran has years of advantadge. I guess that the indicent between Oberyn Martell and Lord Yronwood which resulted in the later dying from the poisoned blade of the former was coldly plotted by Doran Martell, with the objetive of sending "Quentyn" as a pupil to the Yronwoods. You might say that it doesn't make sense because Quentyn belives that he's the prince of Dorne. Well, I guess that the children in the Water Gardens don't really know who they are until they reach a certain age. Arianne didn't even know that the girl with the green hair she used to play with was the Archont's daughter. After leaving the Water Gardens, Quentyn was told that he is a prince of Dorne, but he's not. He's a random lad from the WG, maybe an orphan. The true prince is with Mellario in Norvos.That's consistent with Mellario's departure, which doesn't makes sense otherwise.

Quentyn is pretty much Doran's plan B. If he miracously had taken the dragons or married Dany, Doran gladly would had him back. But if he fails, Doran don't lose a thing. I'm not sure what is his plan A. It seems that (F)Aegon arrival had taken him aback. The Yronwoods, who secretly are supporting (F)Aegon, believe that they are trolling on Doran, putting hurdles in his way to Dany (again, check Drinkwater's behaviour and actions in the link above). That way, they will bet on the winner horse, while Doran bet on the loser. But Doran has a plan. What plan, I don't know. But Doran Martell is a cold-hearted rogue.

Edited by Ashur

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1 hour ago, watcher of the night said:

It is not that he needs to be brought back to life, he may not be dead on the first place.

1, Most living creature die in dragonfire within a split second, it is so hot. Yet Quentin had all the time to observe his whip burning then his hand, then his body burning. It is more likely that Rheagal was roasting someone nearby, Quentin was too close and his whip/clothes cought fire accidentaly. This hurts too, but it may not be lethal.

2, The body Barristan saw was unrecognizable.

3, Drink and Arch were clearly hiding something.

4, Also: second dance.

 

Point 1 is just so wrong.  First, how do you know most living creatures burn in a split second in dragonfire?  Wouldn't it depend on where and in what sequence the fire hit the person?  For example, first hitting the hand, then the rest?  Second, there is no indication that Quentin had any significant period of time at all--he saw the whip burn, his hand burn, then realized the rest of him was burning.  Finally, there is no ambiguity in the text.  "All of him was burning."  Not just his hand or his clothes.  All of him.

Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal.

 

When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.

 

Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream.

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Quentyn is pretty much Doran's plan B. If he miracously had taken the dragons or married Dany, Doran gladly would had him back. But if he fails, Doran don't lose a thing. I'm not sure what is his plan A. It seems that (F)Aegon arrival had taken him aback. The Yronwoods, who secretly are supporting (F)Aegon, believe that they are trolling on Doran, putting hurdles in his way to Dany (again, check Drinkwater's behaviour and actions in the link above). That way, they will bet on the winner horse, while Doran bet on the loser. But Doran has a plan. What plan, I don't know. But Doran Martell is a cold-hearted rogue.

The only plan that I see having a remote chance of working for Doran would be Arriane marrying (f)Aegon.

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What I took away from ADWD was that he was as dead as a doornail.

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