Robert's Raw Deal

[A Faceless Poster]

I have always felt sorry for Robert. It seems no matter what he was screwed. Yes he was a drunk and a manwhore, but he never had a choice in what happened in the larger story. Robert did care for Lyanna as much as a person like him could, and even if he did not his rebellion was guaranteed by King Aerys ordering his head. He fought a rebellion for a throne he did not really want, and when he won he did not get the thing he really fought for. Despite that he forgave his enemies and made necessary sacrifices for peace, and all the people he forgave ended up betraying him. His marriage to Cersei was doomed, she would have gone back to Jaime no matter what, Pycelle worked for Tywin, Dorne hated him no matter what, there is no way to really handle Varys right, and obeying Jon Arryn's rec gave him littlefinger. With the best schemers in Westeros against Robert he was always screwed in a position he did not want anyways, and by default half of the kingdom hated him. Robert did remarkable well holding the realm together for as long as he did, and honestly I miss him 

[James Steller]

Robert wasn't exactly a saint. He mistreated Cersei and practically drove her back into Jaime's arms with his behaviour. Cersei fell for Rhaegar, she may have fallen for him too. We don't know, because Robert was an awful husband. And a terrible King. People hated him, sure, but that's the truth with any King. He could have been better and tried instead of just giving up and indulging his desires. Had he been more alert or interested, he would have listened to Stannis telling him about Littleinger or Janos Slynt's corruption. Maybe could have made a difference.

Robert is definitely a tragic figure when looking at how he was forced to rebel if it meant saving his head, and also how he was doomed in love, but he didn't help himself at all and his lack of self control made things worse for both himself and everyone around him. 

[Maxxine]

I'm not sure if feeling sorry for him is how I would describe it. You can't just say his marriage to Cersei was doomed because of Jaime. He mistreated her and said another woman's name on their wedding night. Maybe things would have been different if he was different. Also, I'm not convinced of his love for Lyanna. I think at this point he's in love with what could have been. Had Lyanna lived I don't see him as being any different than with Cersei. It's easy to proclaim how much you love someone and how devoted you would be to that person when they are dead. Also, don't know how much Dorne hates him. Seems like all their hatred was focused on Tywin and Gregor. Maybe that's because Robert is already dead when we first see Dorne. Idk. But even if they did hate him that his fault for not doing what was right when Tywin killed little kids. Probably the only reason I would feel bad for him is the Rebellion. He really had no choice. It was either die, rebel, or go on the run.

[FrostyDornishman]

I guess Robert did have a lot going against him by the time he won the throne.  But he had quite a few factors in his favor too.

He's proven himself a terrifying enemy and a generous friend, which I think wins him the honest loyalty of most of Westeros.  There's no real organized dissent against his rule (aside from Varys/Illyrio and eventually the Greyjoys).  His starting Small Council consists of mostly loyal, capable people.  Aerys supposedly left the royal coffers full of gold.  He's married to a beautiful woman from a powerful, wealthy house who (at the very start of their marriage) is excited to be with him and willing to put her past relationships behind her.  Most of the countryside seems intact, and nobody seems to be starving.

I point all this out to say that Robert had a real chance to rule well and give stability to the realm.  His actions and attitudes are what bring him from a precarious (but calm) position as the first ruler in a new dynasty to a ruinous one.  It's not entirely his fault, but I also don't think Westeros would've imploded so easily if he hadn't been such a self-pitying, shortsighted, and willfully ignorant king.

This is summed up really well in AGoT where Ned says the Rebellion was so that they could make a better king, and Robert insists it was so that they could kill all the Targs.  Robert is his own raw deal.

[Tianzi]

I always thought that his problem with Cersei was that she came to hate him (with good reasons), and not Jaime (about whom he didn't even know). And it's made quite clear that he wouldn't be happy with Lyanna either. As others said, it's easy to idealize your life that could have been. Of course Cersei is a special little snowflake, but Robert ruined his family life mostly himself, and he was a shitty father as well, to both 'his' children as his bastards.

Forgiving his enemies, yeah, just ask Dany.

He should have never become the king, yes, you can say that it ruined his life... but he would have responsibilities even if he became a 'mere' lord, he would've gotten married, he would be obligated to manage his lands... Unfortunately for him there was a peacetime and he was no good for anything beside fighting and whoring. He could've been a fun guy to hang around (if one had taste for his kind), for some time, when he was in a good mood, but he really had not that much to offer as a person.

 

[daccu65]

I think that the very things that made Bob a great friend made him a lousy king.  Referring to the original post, I don't think he got a raw deal so much as he wound up putting himself in a position he was singularly unprepared to fulfill. 

Look at his character:  On the plus side, he is very brave, generous and yes, forgiving (for the most part).  On the negative, he is impulsive and stubborn; while he is generally forgiving, certain slights and offenses stay with him forever and he has no patience for tasks that don't interest him.  These traits make for a good friend, someone who you would be willing to back during the rebellion...but they also make him a lousy king to rule a peaceful realm.

His flaw was not realizing that he shouldn't take on roles that he wasn't prepared to fulfill.  If memory serves, the rebelling houses agreed to put him on the throne since he had some traces of Targ ancestry, he should have appointed a younger, more active hand and actually listened to the man.  Knowing that he wasn't about to be a good husband, he should have insisted on a wife that didn't have stars in her eyes...or simply forgone a wife and named one of his brothers as his legal heir. 

All said, he didn't get a raw deal so much as he didn't recognize that the wasn't capable of fulfilling his roles as king and husband.

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

12 hours ago, A Faceless Poster said:

I have always felt sorry for Robert. It seems no matter what he was screwed. Yes he was a drunk and a manwhore, but he never had a choice in what happened in the larger story. Robert did care for Lyanna as much as a person like him could, and even if he did not his rebellion was guaranteed by King Aerys ordering his head. He fought a rebellion for a throne he did not really want, and when he won he did not get the thing he really fought for.

What he really fought for was, simply, keeping his head. The rebellion never was over Lyanna, it started only when Aerys went full mad king. So, Robert actually got the thing he really fought for.

12 hours ago, A Faceless Poster said:

Despite that he forgave his enemies and made necessary sacrifices for peace, and all the people he forgave ended up betraying him. His marriage to Cersei was doomed, she would have gone back to Jaime no matter what, Pycelle worked for Tywin, Dorne hated him no matter what, there is no way to really handle Varys right, and obeying Jon Arryn's rec gave him littlefinger.

Jon Arryn gave his advice, but it was Robert who had the last word. So: keeping the Kingslayer around, instead at least sending him to the Wall - that was on Robert.

Dorne "hated him no matter what"? No, they hated him because he gave them very good reasons to. First, he self-fives himself over the massacred bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon, sorry, "dragonspawn", never bothers with giving the victims the smallest amount of justice for the foul murders. No investigation. Nobody punished. So in effect Jon Arryn's attempt at reconciliation amounted to "hey, sorry 'bout your sister and the kids, but how about you all just fuck yourselves and bend the fucking knee, huh?". And they hated Robert "no matter what". Gee, what unreasonable people, these Dornishmen.

So, Robert was fucked - but what, actually, did he ever do in order to not be fucked?

[BanzaiZ]

He might have had some people working against him, but Robert's a prime example of "You are your own worst enemy." Good ol Bob realizes he's not, as is, king material. Barely even lordly material. But instead of sucking it up and rising to meet new responsibilities, he wallowed and drank and whored about. He's a cross between Viserys I and Aegon the Unworthy, and the chaos that happened after his death is a direct result of the seeds of his misrule.

[oopeed]

I won't say I feel sorry for him, because well, no one told him to go full hedonistic and he didn't even try to be a father for "his" children which to me would have been a redemptive feature. But certainly Robert got the short end of the stick. He was made king even when he had fought to keep his head and the one of his best pal, not to sit on the throne.

Robert is more of a cautionary tale that trying to be amicable to everyone doesn't pay out; many abused from his generosity, and his advisors certainly exploited his lack of interest in politics. You don't need to be ruthless, but justice had to be served, and most of all Bob was never really eager to see justice be done.

[shadows and dust]

He would have been a real good Dario. If he filled out a high school aptitude test, it would have told him he was most suited to being a Sell Sword captain. He did not have a 'raw deal'. He fell upwards above his skillset, and instead of fighting to better himself he just fought himself.

[Daemon I Blackfyre]

I can't be that sorry for the guy that left Stannis, the loyal brother, to hold Storm's End for months and that after that gave the land to Renly, even tough he did not lift a finger throughout the whole rebellion.

Also, Robert was okay with the murder of Aegon and Rhaenys. WAY TOO OKAY.  He should've at least let Dorne have revenge by sending them Gregor and Amory (he didn't have to actually arrest Tywin).

But I guess he wasn't even close to the actual assholes of the story.

[DasallmaechtigeJ]

I think that early King Robert was actually a king with great potential. He managed to bind a realm that was deeply torn by civil war to his reign, he even managed to do that peacefully. He forgave his enemies and made them support his reign (cut out the Iron Islands, they rebel every few decades). He was everything you want from a charismatic ruler and I think this achievement of his is actually extremely underrated. Yes, his council was partly responsible, but without his charisma as ruler, the peace would not have lasted.

But sadly, after a few years, Robert grows bored with politics and takes solace in drinking and whoring, and after a while, he cannot stop. I don't want to open Pandora's Box and claim it is all Cersei's fault, who surely is partly responsible, but it is also a lack on Robert's part to accept his new place in society. He would love to be a warrior king again, but doesn't come to terms with the fact that he just can't be that anymore. If he had managed that and had he thrusted his energy in ruling his realm instead of some hooker, he could have been a great king.

[Protagoras]

It is easy to feel sorry for Robert in AGOT, but we see him when he is at his weakest and his most sympathetic. And it is as they say (or I say at least), it is no fun to kick a poor. defenesless, sad dog - regardless of how much that dog deserves to be kicked. And Robert deserves it.

Not only did he decide to ruin the realm by poor management and feasting, he let the small council run amok and did nothing to check some of its members dubious loyalties. Then he didn´t try to be a father for his children and taught Joffrey (willingly or not) that killing cripples was the way to go as well as beating him and being a complete irresponsible parent (Cersei comes off as the better parent by far - Cersei! At least she was there!). In general - he didn´t try and was pretty stupid when it came to...well anything. He is a coward and violent, childish yet forces Ned to obey his king. He bankrupted the realm and did nothing to improve the relations with those not liking his "bro-attitude".

Then he rants over Lyanna. A lot. People die, Robert - get used to it. Besides she didn´t love you and what you love is only a reflection of untrue feelings enhanced by the passing of time and the tragic history. He reminds me of Kilgrave from Jessica Jones. He has a fixed idea about this perfect woman who somehow matches his fantasy and her death has made her perfect (if she hadn´t died I bet he would have called her a "ungrateful whore who don´t understand how much I love her" - I have met these people and they all suffers from a lack of logic and common sense). Robert, in addition, is almost always drunk. Drunken idiot is the first thing I think.

When it comes to Cersei he is as much abuser as he abused. His lack of dialogue, respect and ability to work with her is shocking, but then again Cersei is not the best person to cut a deal with (can she even do that?). That Cersei "guards her cunt" is very problematic and a clear marriage breach from her side. She should have known that she owns her husband his marital rights (and vice versa) and that she already accepted and consented to this at the marriage, according to Westerosi tradition. On the other hand, how often they should have sex is something they should get in a agreement about (with respect in both ways - the point is that the argument "I don´t want to have sex with you ever" is not a valid position in a westerosi marriage) and Robert does seem to be able to hold a dialogue. That he beat her is very problematic and he doesn´t seem to get that he NEEDS a working relation with her, more than the opposite. At the very minimum - if you are going to force Cersei to sex, at least stand for it and what you have done - that you should be able to do what you did. Don´t blame the booze.

Finally, he has no sense of justice - he think he can do what he want since he is king, but fails to remember what happened to his predeccessor, who had the same line of thought. He legalizes Tywins slaying of the Targaryen children and therefore takes the full burden upon himself for doing so.

Robert looks good on the surface, but the issues Westeros is suffering from now stems from the rot he caused.

[TimJames]

I agree with the OP. 

Robert Baratheon is by far one of my favorite characters. He watched his parents die when still young, his wife was raped and murdered, and he spent the last fifteen years of his life surrounded by people who wanted him dead. He has exactly three people in his life who have his best interest at heart (Stannis Baratheon, Eddard Stark, and Jon Arryn) and the first two were always far away.

I legitimately believe he struggled with depression and that Robert's indulgences were attempts to numb the pain. 

At least he and Lyanna can be reunited in the next life (I think he truly loved her, and that Lyanna at least felt something for him). 

[The Wolves]

12 minutes ago, TimJames said:

 

At least he and Lyanna can be reunited in the next life (I think he truly loved her, and that Lyanna at least felt something for him). 

Where did you get the idea that Lyanna felt something for him? 

[Rob Storm]

I too try and stand up for Robert.  He isn't a role model at  the time of AGOT but I think becoming King enabled a lot of his bad characteristics.  Just as power corrupted Aegon 4, Aerys, Cersei and others I think a lot of his bad traits bloomed and got worse in the years between his forced rebellion and when we meet him in ASOIAF.  He would have been almost as enabled as Lord of Storms End but the level of people pandering to him and enabling his desires would have been fairly lower I would think.  He was just simply weak willed like many previous rulers.  

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, A Faceless Poster said:

I have always felt sorry for Robert. It seems no matter what he was screwed. Yes he was a drunk and a manwhore, but he never had a choice in what happened in the larger story. Robert did care for Lyanna as much as a person like him could, and even if he did not his rebellion was guaranteed by King Aerys ordering his head. He fought a rebellion for a throne he did not really want, and when he won he did not get the thing he really fought for. Despite that he forgave his enemies and made necessary sacrifices for peace, and all the people he forgave ended up betraying him. His marriage to Cersei was doomed, she would have gone back to Jaime no matter what, Pycelle worked for Tywin, Dorne hated him no matter what, there is no way to really handle Varys right, and obeying Jon Arryn's rec gave him littlefinger. With the best schemers in Westeros against Robert he was always screwed in a position he did not want anyways, and by default half of the kingdom hated him. Robert did remarkable well holding the realm together for as long as he did, and honestly I miss him 

It's not an uncommon occurance: a great military leader overthrows a government and sets himself up as the new king/dictator. But waging war and running a civilian government are two very different things requiring vastly different skillsets and temperaments

The U.S. was extremely fortunate that it had George Washington who was good at both, but elsewhere you see the same failed pattern over and over again: Mao, Lenin, Santa Anna, Pinochet... It's a long list.

[Tianzi]

2 hours ago, Protagoras said:

When it comes to Cersei he is as much abuser as he abused. His lack of dialogue, respect and ability to work with her is shocking, but then again Cersei is not the best person to cut a deal with (can she even do that?). That Cersei "guards her cunt" is very problematic and a clear marriage breach from her side. She should have known that she owns her husband his marital rights (and vice versa) and that she already accepted and consented to this at the marriage, according to Westerosi tradition. On the other hand, how often they should have sex is something they should get in a agreement about (with respect in both ways - the point is that the argument "I don´t want to have sex with you ever" is not a valid position in a westerosi marriage) and Robert does seem to be able to hold a dialogue. That he beat her is very problematic and he doesn´t seem to get that he NEEDS a working relation with her, more than the opposite. At the very minimum - if you are going to force Cersei to sex, at least stand for it and what you have done - that you should be able to do what you did. Don´t blame the booze.

I cringe when I read about 'his right to force her to sex', and not only by modern standards, but even in Westerosi situation. Robert apparently could have send Cersei off - there were arrangements in progress from Renly's side, if I remember correctly even before the incest came out' ie. in a situation when she apparently DID her duty and gave him 'heirs'. Robert could have said to her: 'honey, you sex with me or queen no more', I think it would have worked with her.

The thing with his disgusting self-pitying and marital rapes is, he was brutalizing her and had a kick from that. Even Cersei herself - a Westerosi woman - doesn't define his violations on her as rapes, she hated him for his force, for his wine-stinking, his abuse and the mean gleam of satisfaction in his eyes after he was done with her. Yes, she did her best to avoid getting pregnant, she got him off other ways, but there is nothing to suggest she refused to have sex per se (in the longer period of time). She obviously knew she couldn't declare: 'lord husband, banging no more'. And if Robert was really interested in making heirs with his lady wife, and not in getting back at her with sexual violence, he could probably take a sober, rational approach and accomplish it pretty easily.

But yeah, him being a drunken pig and a coward about his sexual violence is one more thing.

 

[Pastaeyes]

8 hours ago, shadows and dust said:

He would have been a real good Dario. If he filled out a high school aptitude test, it would have told him he was most suited to being a Sell Sword captain. He did not have a 'raw deal'. He fell upwards above his skillset, and instead of fighting to better himself he just fought hi

Spot on. I never got people's obsession with Bobby B. He had many things going for him and only turned to his most loyal friend when he was truly up the creek without a paddle. And even then all he did was alienate him and get his head chopped of. It's Ned I feel for. 

[Nissa]

I think I could have felt sorry for the Robert "on paper" or rather Roberts story. The actual character however does not make me feel any sympathy for him. I get this opinion mostly from Ned's chapters early on in GoT and their interactions. I don't think the whoring began because of Lyannas death. At one point he tells Ned no woman wants to Baelor the blessed in their bed as a response to Ned not wanting to go into details about "dishonoring" Caitlyn. Some previous examples have been given about his treatment of his brothers, his sons, letting his council run rampant. I don't think all of these stemmed from Lyanna being kidnapped/running off. One part that bothered me upon rereading is when he agrees to let Lady be killed as punishment. Ned tells him that if he insists he should be man enough to do it himself and Robert just walks away. I get that he probably had to because of cersei but the way Robert responds to Ned (or rather doesn't respond) is pretty telling on how he handles any problems or conflicts he faces since he secured the IT.