Who is the Lion?

[Viking]

Now I've seen quite a bit of speculation about who Nissa-Nissa might be and which sword (or even if it is a sword) Lightbringer might be. 

 

I've yet to see any serious speculation about who or what the second quencher, the lion, might be. 

 

Now as the story goes first he tries to temper the sword in water, second he tries temper the sword in a lion and only succeeds when he tempers the sword in the chest of his beloved nissa-nissa. Obviously a lion might be a Lannister since sigils seem to affect so much else. Is it a specific lannister? Is it a symbolic lannister? Is it the white lion dany has the pelt of? I want those who speculate about who nissa-nissa might be to also connect that speculation with who the lion might be (or even what the water might be). 

 

Any ideas?

[chrisdaw]

Drogon is going to turn to stone via Euron. Dany is going to need to wake him, hence the waking dragons from stone talk.

As far as Dany can tell Drogon was born from the sacrifice of Drogo and Rhaego. And again as far as she will be able to tell Drogon will have been corrupted by the sacrifice of Euron and her's and his child.

So to fix Drogon, the first step at least, will seem to her to get preggers. The fixed Drogon, Drogon awoken from stone, is Lightbringer. And so her first attempt to get pregnant is the first failure of AA to create Lightbringer. The sacred flames are Dany's fiery womb.

So who is the first baby daddy? Can't just be anyone, she needs good blood. Water. The old blood of Valyria, Aurane Waters. It will fail, quickly she will miscarry.

The second attempt, she'll consider even better dragon blood for the daddy. Tyrion will ride Viserion, and thus be considered dragon blood. Seemingly good dragon blood. He is the lion and the second failed attempt at creating Lightbringer. It will hold longer, she'll carry longer, but she will miscarry again.

No prizes for guessing who the third successful Nissa Nissa attempt is, dragon blood tempered with cold preservatives.

[Sensenmenn]

Ice was Water

Oathkeeper reforged by tywin was Lion

lightbringer made by being shoved through lady stone hearts heart

[Lost Melnibonean]

The forging of lightbringer might not be a step-by-step foreshadowing, but a lesson in what is necessary to give rise to the hero. Normal temporing was insufficient, so the hero tried a lion, a symbol for bravery, pride, strength, what you would expect in a hero. But the lion failed too. Instead the hero had to sacrifice his love, perhaps because, as Aemon tells us, love is the bane of honor, the death to duty. Jon chose honor and duty over a woman's love when he abandoned Ygritte to her fate. 

[Dorian Martell]

5 hours ago, Viking said:

Now I've seen quite a bit of speculation about who Nissa-Nissa might be and which sword (or even if it is a sword) Lightbringer might be. 

Any ideas?

The Nissa Nissa story is myth from thousands of years ago and has no truth to it other than sacrifice. Dany is the closest character to follow the AA archetype. Her unborn baby died to save her husband. she then killed her husband. MMD was the third and her dragons are her flaming sword  

[daccu65]

I'll admit to not being a close follower of prophesy, but I'm intrigued by how the AA prophesy sometimes parallels Gendry.  First, AA forged multiple swords; from a conversation with Arya, Gendry said that he was working on a sword of his own when Tobho sold him to the NW.  He was working on another sword when he met Brienne.  He is also associated with a priest of R'hllor, since he was knighted by Beric, who at the time had been resurrected several times by Thoros.

Now, we see that Brienne may be bringing Jamie (a lion) to LSH.  IIRC, LSH is currently animated by the same force that animated Beric.   This leads me to wonder if Jamie has a parallel to the Lion while LSH has a parallel to Nissa Nissa.  

I tend to read too much into the inconsequential, but Gendry struck me as having several parallels to the AA legend that some others did not...namely forging his own swords, more than once.  It also struck me as odd that Beric would knight Gendry, a young man with no weapons training, rather than taking him on as a squire.  This made me suspect that Gendry was destined for greater things.   

As with other plot points, I eagerly await TWoW to see how far off I am.

 

 

 

[Alaynsa Starne]

I don't think myths from thousands of years ago are meant to foreshadow what will happen in the Second War for the Dawn. At least, not directly. The problem with assuming that a second Lightbringer must be forged and that it must be forged in exactly the same way as the first mythological Lightbringer is that you sort of run into continuity errors. We know that the Second War for the Dawn will be different from the first because humanity has dragons this time around. Why would anyone need a flaming sword for hand-to-hand combat when dragons can just swoop over and bomb the fuck out of everything? Why would anyone risk plunging steel into the heart of someone they love when the Westerosi equivalent of WMDs are flying around? Why would the lion in the myth represent a Lannister, and the water would be literal water? Would Azor Ahai have to sacrifice Gendry, then Jaime, then someone they love? 

Incidentally, I don't think the story of Lightbringer is a literal translation of what happened in the First War. I think it's how Valyrian steel was forged -- with human sacrifice. Well, Valyrian steel exists as a technology. It's possible that this is how the technology will be rediscovered and Valyrian steel will be produced in bulk, but I don't think we'll get a literal second, single flaming Lightbringer this time around. 

[Damon_Tor]

If Jaime Lannister is Azor Ahai (I was hesitant about this at first, but I now admit it makes some weird amount of sense) then the different temperings make some sense as follows:

Water- "Waters" is the surname given to bastards born in the Crownlands: all three of his children should rightly be called "Waters". To become the hero, he will have to sacrifice his children.

Lion- His family: not just Cercei, but his father, his brother, his cousins, everyone. He will have to give them up in one way or another; he will have to give up the NAME Lannister, his identity as a Lannister.

Nissa Nissa- His love. This might be a specific person. It might refer to Cercei specifically (making the sacrifice of her more distinct than simply lumping her in with his family).

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

7 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Drogon is going to turn to stone via Euron. Dany is going to need to wake him, hence the waking dragons from stone talk.

As far as Dany can tell Drogon was born from the sacrifice of Drogo and Rhaego. And again as far as she will be able to tell Drogon will have been corrupted by the sacrifice of Euron and her's and his child.

So to fix Drogon, the first step at least, will seem to her to get preggers. The fixed Drogon, Drogon awoken from stone, is Lightbringer. And so her first attempt to get pregnant is the first failure of AA to create Lightbringer. The sacred flames are Dany's fiery womb.

So who is the first baby daddy? Can't just be anyone, she needs good blood. Water. The old blood of Valyria, Aurane Waters. It will fail, quickly she will miscarry.

The second attempt, she'll consider even better dragon blood for the daddy. Tyrion will ride Viserion, and thus be considered dragon blood. Seemingly good dragon blood. He is the lion and the second failed attempt at creating Lightbringer. It will hold longer, she'll carry longer, but she will miscarry again.

No prizes for guessing who the third successful Nissa Nissa attempt is, dragon blood tempered with cold preservatives.

In my opinion this will not happen at all.

[Light a wight tonight]

11 hours ago, Viking said:

Now I've seen quite a bit of speculation about who Nissa-Nissa might be and which sword (or even if it is a sword) Lightbringer might be. 

 

I've yet to see any serious speculation about who or what the second quencher, the lion, might be. 

 

Now as the story goes first he tries to temper the sword in water, second he tries temper the sword in a lion and only succeeds when he tempers the sword in the chest of his beloved nissa-nissa. Obviously a lion might be a Lannister since sigils seem to affect so much else. Is it a specific lannister? Is it a symbolic lannister? Is it the white lion dany has the pelt of? I want those who speculate about who nissa-nissa might be to also connect that speculation with who the lion might be (or even what the water might be). 

 

Any ideas?

I nominate Lancel. 

[Brian Rioghbhardan]

11 hours ago, Viking said:

I've yet to see any serious speculation about who or what the second quencher, the lion, might be. 

Hmm this whole posts would seem to suggest that you know who the "water" is and who the "nissa" is. So Who do you think they are? 

As for me, I personally beleive that the lightbringer prophesy is intended to be taken as a metaphor. First off Azor Ahai role isn't to defeat the Others, his role is to forge the legendary weapon, Lightbringer, that will defeat them. The only thing is that Lightbringer isn't an actual sword but rather  three children, 2 of which are broken and incomplete, who Azor ahai "forged"  by sticking his metaphorical "sword" aka his dick into three women representing  "water", a "Lion" and his wife which resulted in all three women dying in child birth as a result. The Lion represents Tyrion's mom, the wife represents Dany and the water I'm not certain of but I'm leaning towards Jon Snow because if rhaegar is his father his bastard name would be "waters" and Ice Plus Fire also equals waters. Or it's possible that it represents some unknown Bastard of Aerys II, since he's said to have more mistresses then any other king besides Aegon the unworthy (and that guy had well over 20 bastards). I've thrown Davos out as a possible candidate but who knows. Anyways Dany is clearly the completed Lightbringer and as such she was able to bring 3 dragons back into the world. And it's likely the other 2 incomplete lightbringers will end up as her other 2 dragon riders. 

[Viking]

18 hours ago, Brian Rioghbhardan said:

Hmm this whole posts would seem to suggest that you know who the "water" is and who the "nissa" is. So Who do you think they are? 

 

I have no idea what the water or who nissa nissa might be. I'm truly quite baffled. I just think that any theory has to account for the lion, be the theory figurative or literal. 

 

The only thing I am reasonably sure of is that the sword and the funeral pyre of nissa nissa will be connected, magic wise. I'm assuming that lightbringer is a literal sword

 

I think teh point of this thread is for me to assert that any hypothesis which does not account for the lion is useless. 

[Forlong the Fat]

I think you're off base in suggesting that the lion or water are either helpful or necessary to create lightbringer.  The parable seems to suggest that personal, painful blood sacrifice is necessary.  And there's no indication that this was a three step process with each step necessary to create lightbringer.  On the contrary, the sword shattered after the water and the lion, and AA had to make a new one each time.  No suggestion that the lion helped, or was an intermediate step, in tempering the sword.  Put differently, if AA had gone straight to 100 days of forging, then stabbed Nissa Nissa, that probably would have worked.

And I agree with those above who suggest you are being too literal about this.  The point is that you have to go all the way.  No half measures. I've been thinking lately that Melisandre is likely to reflect on this with the failure of Stannis as AA.  She has been faking it so far, literally, by using a glamour to simulate light bringer.  She's going to have to figure out what real, drastic sacrifice is necessary if she is going to do any better in the future. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

45 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

I think you're off base in suggesting that the lion or water are either helpful or necessary to create lightbringer.  The parable seems to suggest that personal, painful blood sacrifice is necessary.  And there's no indication that this was a three step process with each step necessary to create lightbringer.  On the contrary, the sword shattered after the water and the lion, and AA had to make a new one each time.  No suggestion that the lion helped, or was an intermediate step, in tempering the sword.  Put differently, if AA had gone straight to 100 days of forging, then stabbed Nissa Nissa, that probably would have worked.

And I agree with those above who suggest you are being too literal about this.  The point is that you have to go all the way.  No half measures. I've been thinking lately that Melisandre is likely to reflect on this with the failure of Stannis as AA.  She has been faking it so far, literally, by using a glamour to simulate light bringer.  She's going to have to figure out what real, drastic sacrifice is necessary if she is going to do any better in the future. 

Very well put. 

[Viking]

1 hour ago, Forlong the Fat said:

I think you're off base in suggesting that the lion or water are either helpful or necessary to create lightbringer.  The parable seems to suggest that personal, painful blood sacrifice is necessary.  And there's no indication that this was a three step process with each step necessary to create lightbringer.  On the contrary, the sword shattered after the water and the lion, and AA had to make a new one each time.  No suggestion that the lion helped, or was an intermediate step, in tempering the sword.  Put differently, if AA had gone straight to 100 days of forging, then stabbed Nissa Nissa, that probably would have worked.

And I agree with those above who suggest you are being too literal about this.  The point is that you have to go all the way.  No half measures. I've been thinking lately that Melisandre is likely to reflect on this with the failure of Stannis as AA.  She has been faking it so far, literally, by using a glamour to simulate light bringer.  She's going to have to figure out what real, drastic sacrifice is necessary if she is going to do any better in the future. 

In reality perhaps, but this is fiction, it repeats and rhymes, setups are resolved and foreshadowing happens. Sallador Saan tells the story as a warning to Davos and he tells the whole story, lion included. It's a three step process. First the regular solution is tried, and fails, then the heroic solution is tried and finally the sacrificial solution is tried and works. 

 

The Lion might be a literal lannister, some heroic task, or a figurative lion or whatever. I just don't know. I just feel that it is reasonable of me to think that the Lion in Saans story can quite possibly be relevant to the process. 

 

In any case if AA had just forged to 100 days then stabbed nissa nissa without trying any of the alternatives then I suppose he'd be a bit of a sociopath and the act would not really be much of a sacrifice then. 

[Forlong the Fat]

15 minutes ago, Viking said:

In reality perhaps, but this is fiction, it repeats and rhymes, setups are resolved and foreshadowing happens. Sallador Saan tells the story as a warning to Davos and he tells the whole story, lion included. It's a three step process. First the regular solution is tried, and fails, then the heroic solution is tried and finally the sacrificial solution is tried and works. 

 

The Lion might be a literal lannister, some heroic task, or a figurative lion or whatever. I just don't know. I just feel that it is reasonable of me to think that the Lion in Saans story can quite possibly be relevant to the process. 

 

In any case if AA had just forged to 100 days then stabbed nissa nissa without trying any of the alternatives then I suppose he'd be a bit of a sociopath and the act would not really be much of a sacrifice then. 

It may be relevant--Melisandre has already failed, after all.  But it is not a three step process.  The three little pigs didn't make their house by a three step process.  They tried two ways that failed, then they found one that worked.  If you read that story would you conclude you needed to make a straw house before you could make a brick house?  

[Leonardo]

On 5/5/2016 at 9:02 AM, chrisdaw said:

Drogon is going to turn to stone via Euron. Dany is going to need to wake him, hence the waking dragons from stone talk.

As far as Dany can tell Drogon was born from the sacrifice of Drogo and Rhaego. And again as far as she will be able to tell Drogon will have been corrupted by the sacrifice of Euron and her's and his child.

So to fix Drogon, the first step at least, will seem to her to get preggers. The fixed Drogon, Drogon awoken from stone, is Lightbringer. And so her first attempt to get pregnant is the first failure of AA to create Lightbringer. The sacred flames are Dany's fiery womb.

So who is the first baby daddy? Can't just be anyone, she needs good blood. Water. The old blood of Valyria, Aurane Waters. It will fail, quickly she will miscarry.

The second attempt, she'll consider even better dragon blood for the daddy. Tyrion will ride Viserion, and thus be considered dragon blood. Seemingly good dragon blood. He is the lion and the second failed attempt at creating Lightbringer. It will hold longer, she'll carry longer, but she will miscarry again.

No prizes for guessing who the third successful Nissa Nissa attempt is, dragon blood tempered with cold preservatives.

Wtf.....

[Forlong the Fat]

6 minutes ago, Leonardo said:

Wtf.....

Couldn't have said it better.

[Ser Leftwich]

Not a big advocate of Jon = AA, but Jon has killed two Brother's of the NW with Longclaw: Halfhand in a fight and executed Slynt. He learned hard lessons each time. Who might be the third Black-brother that he kills? What lesson might Jon learn?

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, Leonardo said:

Wtf.....

It was written fairly clearly I thought, what don't you understand?