L+R=J ... but where would be the provenance?

[Charlie Hustle]

Even if Snow finds out. Would he even care? Too much have to be proven for him to believe that he's a Targ. Also thats not going to change his view of ruling Westeros, which is he could care less. Anyone knowing this would have a hit out on him because he would be a major threat for the Iron Throne. The only benefit of all of this is the dragons, and the fact that he is the key for whats important, defeating the undead. 

[hallam]

2 hours ago, Sand11751 said:

While I also believe the actions of the dragons will give some validity when Jon's lineage is revealed, I agree that for Jon the knowledge would make no difference. He's a natural leader, but wouldn't want to be co-ruler or even associated with Daenerys on the throne. To the point about duty, pre-death, he was all about duty. but he's clearly convinced that it isn't worth the sacrifice of his life again. Some compelling reason would require him to change that view again.

As far as pretty much everyone is Westeros is concerned, the Targarean line was extinguished by the Baratheon line. There was a civil war, the Targs lost. They have no claim.

There is only one person in the show who would care about Jon's claim if Rheagar is his father and that is Danny. And she would only step aside for Jon if the mother was Elia. Danny is not going to step aside for a bastard.

Robert + Lyanna = Jon would be a different matter. In that case the logical thing to do would be for Jon to marry Danny and unite the two claims rather than fight a war over them. Danny has already shown she is willing to do that. Jon does not want the Iron Throne for itself and he is in any case soon to be the power in the North whether he calls himself king or not.

58 minutes ago, Mayura said:

The show is showing that reality is somewhat different from the stories/legends that are told. In the case of ToJ, the major difference is that Bran noticed his dad didn't tell him "the whole truth". He let Bran believe he had fought and defeated Dayne in single combat while the reality is different: Ned survived the battle thanks to Howland Reed who backstabbed Dayne before he could end Ned.

If we follow that logic, those events are there to show that Ned didn't always tell the truth to his children (or to everyone for that matters) and that, to the contrary of popular belief, Ned also kept his little secrets. Bran was shocked to discover that Ned never told him Reed backstabbed Dayne and, in his next vision, he is likely to discover that Ned lied to everyone for the past 20 or so years on the show and that Jon isn't Bran's half brother at all. 

R+L=J is so happening even on the show. It's happening so much that D&D wear polo shirts with R+L embroidered on them (literally). 

Regarding the topic of a possible will from Rhaegar, even if it exists, it would be pretty much irrelevant. Rhaegar died at least 17 years ago and even if Howland Reed saw things and stuff, I fail to see why and how Dany, the Lannisters, anyone would believe him.

If D&D wear those shirts it is a dead giveaway that the theory is bunk. They are exceptionally careful not to give away the plot. Not least because it isn't their plot.

R also stands for Robert and the Baratheons have Targ blood. The baby would have to be born a bit earlier and you would need a wierwood tree wedding.

I don't think its Bob though.

39 minutes ago, Charlie Hustle said:

Even if Snow finds out. Would he even care? Too much have to be proven for him to believe that he's a Targ. Also thats not going to change his view of ruling Westeros, which is he could care less. Anyone knowing this would have a hit out on him because he would be a major threat for the Iron Throne. The only benefit of all of this is the dragons, and the fact that he is the key for whats important, defeating the undead. 

There is no solution at this point that doesn't give Jon some Targ blood. Jon will be King in the North by right of conquest by the end of the season which makes his parentage irrelevant to everyone except for Danny, Mel and himself. 

From a story point of view, the much bigger issue is how to bring Lightbringer into the story. There aren't many possibilities and the show seems to have closed off one:

* The sword Dawn is Lightbringer in disguise

* Some other sword is Lightbringer

* Lightbringer is buried in Lyanna's tomb.

* Jon makes a new lightbringer by sacrificing ???

Other than Mel, Jon has barely seen a woman who is currently within a hundred miles of him. I do think there is possibly a lightbringer connection to Lyanna's shout from the ToJ. It did not sound like childbirth to me.

[Lady Lyanna Mormont]

1 hour ago, Charlie Hustle said:

Even if Snow finds out. Would he even care? Too much have to be proven for him to believe that he's a Targ. Also thats not going to change his view of ruling Westeros, which is he could care less. Anyone knowing this would have a hit out on him because he would be a major threat for the Iron Throne. The only benefit of all of this is the dragons, and the fact that he is the key for whats important, defeating the undead. 

I agree. I believe the only reason he's half Targ is so he can command one of the dragons in the battle against the WW. I don't think he cares/wants the Iron Throne and because he would still be a bastard, he probably would consider Dany the rightfully heir. I even consider, once it's all over, him going back to the NW and stay as LC.

I think it is possible Ned brought something with him and buried in Lyanna's tomb. I don't think they would carry out a funeral with Lyanna's body decomposed (the trip from TOJ to Winterfell probably took days) and I believe Robert was on King's Landing taking over the throne so he couldn't see any trinkets burried with her.

As a proof, if what I said is true, he's the only one who needs to know (well, maybe Dany, too). So Bran telling him and even showing whatever may be in the tombs, is enough.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

Who says Jon is a bastard?

Rhaegar & Lyanna were probably married before Jons birth. Targaryens often had multiple wives.

So if Lyanna was hanging out in the tower, for say 9 months, she must have had a whole bunch of persons bringing food & other necessities... 

[House Toad]

Couldn't Robert Baratheon have easily impregnated her when playing knights and maidens at the tourney prior to Rheagal's later gangbang with Arthur?

The story has to kill him off to complete its circle, there will ultimately have to be a price for his resurrection, because nobody cheats the reaper, not by birthright. Otherwise the ends haven't met the means, defeating the tale, a tale which could read any other way to that eventuality. Besides his death has already happened once.

[ShadowKitteh]

9 hours ago, RadSam said:

Any evidence about R+L=J, I believe, would be with Howland. Whether it will be enough for all the lords etc to believe Jon, who knows? I hope so because the more power Jon has now, the more he will be able to grow an army to fight the coming war. 

I can see Jon not wanting the IT, but that doesn't mean he won't take it. He is honorable and has a sense of duty

I'm still confused about how Bran will get the truth to Jon. Will he leave the cave and try to get to Jon to tell him? Or is the fact that we can see people hear him during his visions have something to do with it? 

It was just established that people (Ned) can hear Bran, no matter what time period they're in, or where they are geographically. 

And that was just an instinctive move on Bran's part. How much better will he be at that, after he learns more about communicating - over time and space?

[ShadowKitteh]

2 hours ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

Who says Jon is a bastard?

Rhaegar & Lyanna were probably married before Jons birth. Targaryens often had multiple wives.

So if Lyanna was hanging out in the tower, for say 9 months, she must have had a whole bunch of persons bringing food & other necessities... 

R & L definitely married. Otherwise, they're be no reason for Kinsguard to be present (after Rhaegar's death especially), and no reason to fight Ned and his men.

[hallam]

1 hour ago, ShadowKitteh said:

R & L definitely married. Otherwise, they're be no reason for Kinsguard to be present (after Rhaegar's death especially), and no reason to fight Ned and his men.

Not according to the laws of Westeros. Lyanna was engaged to another man and Rheagar was already married. 

Targs could only carry on like Targs while they were in power and had the dragons to back them up.

The reason the Kingsguard is there is that Jon was born to Elia and is the legitimate heir. At this point, the only contrary evidence is fifth hand from a character called 'tells lies about Jon' - JonCon.

[Nami]

1 hour ago, ShadowKitteh said:

R & L definitely married. Otherwise, they're be no reason for Kinsguard to be present (after Rhaegar's death especially), and no reason to fight Ned and his men.

I think if Rhaegar ordered them to stay there they would have to obey, Lyanna being married to him or not
I mean, they have to follow whatever their prince order them to do
It's also personal for Arthur because that was his  best friend's wish

[Florina Laufeyson]

Even if Lyanna and Rhaegar werent married, it doesnt matter. Jon can still be legitimized. That is the point of Ramsay's legitimization, to show that it can freaking happen. It takes a king to do it, and whos to say someone like Dany wont legitimize him as either Stark or Targaryen? 

As for L+R=J, its a thing and its a very real thing. People in denial about it at this point, just make me giggle. This, i believe, is where Howland Reed comes in. (and possibly Benjen if hes still alive) He was there, so he could say one way or the other. There might be some kind of item to signify that Rhae-man and Lyanna are his real parents, but who knows.

[ShadowKitteh]

Targs have had plural marriages since forever. See - Aegon and his Sister-wives.

The KG would never have stayed after Rhaegar's death, just to guard a pregnant Lyanna Stark, who was carrying a Targ bastard. They could have dropped her off at Starfall or anywhere. That didn't happen.

If Jon wasn't legit, there would be ZERO reason to fight Ned and his men. They would have handed Lyanna over to Ned, and called it a day (even though they'd never have been there if that were the case.) That didn't happen either.

The KG make a point of saying that Viserys is not the heir, because he has no KG with him on Dragonstone, and he's with Rhaegar's widow - who is also no longer Queen. No need for KG. Specifically. Yet there they are, between Dorne and the Reach, at an abandoned watchtower, guarding Lyanna Stark..... and....

Why would GRRM go to that point if Jon wasn't legitimate?

I don't don't why this is such a hard thing to accept. 

 

[hallam]

6 minutes ago, Florina Laufeyson said:

Even if Lyanna and Rhaegar werent married, it doesnt matter. Jon can still be legitimized. That is the point of Ramsay's legitimization, to show that it can freaking happen. It takes a king to do it, and whos to say someone like Dany wont legitimize him as either Stark or Targaryen? 

As for L+R=J, its a thing and its a very real thing. People in denial about it at this point, just make me giggle. This, i believe, is where Howland Reed comes in. (and possibly Benjen if hes still alive) He was there, so he could say one way or the other. There might be some kind of item to signify that Rhae-man and Lyanna are his real parents, but who knows.

Can only be done by the king and Aerys never knew Jon existed. neither did Robert. After Tommen isn't going to legitimize Jon so he can take his throne and Robb's authority was never recognized.

People who put 7,500 posts arguing a nonsense theory are what make me giggle. There are a dozen fanatics on this board who have been pushing this loopy theory and that is the only reason it is take seriously.

Lyanna and Rheagar are both paragons of virtue according to everyone but those people with an interest in defaming them. Rheagar certainly isn't a rapist and he probably isn't an adulterer either. Lyanna's objection to Robert is that he is unfaithful. To then go off and sleep with Rheagar when betrothed to Robert would be the height of hypocrisy.

Yes, you can be mean and nasty to people pointing out the holes in your precious theory but that doesn't make it true. R+L is certainly implied in the text. But the bastard issue makes it a red herring.

I notice that nobody pushing this theory has ever dared reply to the fact that it rests on a statement by a character called 'tells lies about Jon' - JonCon that Elia couldn't have any more children. Isn't the name JonCon kind of like a giant billboard signaling that the statement is a red herring?

[hallam]

5 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Targs have had plural marriages since forever. See - Aegon and his Sister-wives.

The KG would never have stayed after Rhaegar's death, just to guard a pregnant Lyanna Stark, who was carrying a Targ bastard. They could have dropped her off at Starfall or anywhere. That didn't happen.

If Jon wasn't legit, there would be ZERO reason to fight Ned and his men. They would have handed Lyanna over to Ned, and called it a day (even though they'd never have been there if that were the case.) That didn't happen either.

The KG make a point of saying that Viserys is not the heir, because he has no KG with him on Dragonstone, and he's with Rhaegar's widow - who is also no longer Queen. No need for KG. Specifically. Yet there they are, between Dorne and the Reach, at an abandoned watchtower, guarding Lyanna Stark..... and....

Why would GRRM go to that point if Jon wasn't legitimate?

I don't don't why this is such a hard thing to accept. 

 

You are using your theory as evidence to support your theory.

Jon is legitimate, we agree on that. But he cannot possibly be legitimate and be Lyanna's son. So the presence of the Kingsgard means that your theory is false.

Jon has to be Elias son. There is no contrary evidence to exclude it. The only thing missing is Rheagars motive for concealing the birth of a third son which can be explained by the prophecy.

[Florina Laufeyson]

59 minutes ago, hallam said:

Can only be done by the king and Aerys never knew Jon existed. neither did Robert. After Tommen isn't going to legitimize Jon so he can take his throne and Robb's authority was never recognized.

People who put 7,500 posts arguing a nonsense theory are what make me giggle. There are a dozen fanatics on this board who have been pushing this loopy theory and that is the only reason it is take seriously.

Lyanna and Rheagar are both paragons of virtue according to everyone but those people with an interest in defaming them. Rheagar certainly isn't a rapist and he probably isn't an adulterer either. Lyanna's objection to Robert is that he is unfaithful. To then go off and sleep with Rheagar when betrothed to Robert would be the height of hypocrisy.

Yes, you can be mean and nasty to people pointing out the holes in your precious theory but that doesn't make it true. R+L is certainly implied in the text. But the bastard issue makes it a red herring.

I notice that nobody pushing this theory has ever dared reply to the fact that it rests on a statement by a character called 'tells lies about Jon' - JonCon that Elia couldn't have any more children. Isn't the name JonCon kind of like a giant billboard signaling that the statement is a red herring?

 Your denial is fucking hilarious. Dont mind me, im over here enjoying you making an absolute arse of yourself.

[TWR]

What's the significance of Jon being legitimate? Do people really see him ruling the 7 kingdoms in the end?

[St Daga]

I don’t think the truth of Jon's parentage will ever be known by many. I don't think Jon cares about the Iron Throne, or ruling the Seven Kingdoms. Jon's purpose is to save the world from the Others; not be king, so proving his parentage won't matter. I am not sure that it even matters that he knows in the end who his parents were, but I hope he does find out, just to give him some closure. 

[Petite Psycophant]

I always figured that Jon's parentage is only important because of the power he will one day wield. I've laways had a problem with people incisting that him being legitimized or recognized as being the legitimate heir is important.

From what I could infer from the books is that certain magic is tied to genetics as in it can't be learned. So the hero must be born from the right parents. The entire series is about the union of ice and fire. The Targaryens representing fire and the North representing ice. It's no accident that Rhaegar chose a northern girl after reading the prophecy to mate with.

Jon needs to be both a warg and a dragonrider for some important reason not yet revealed. Yes, you need someone to unify the Seven Kingdoms in order to fight The Others but that doesn't mean Jon has to be the one to do it. I don't even agree that they will succeed in joining the Seven Kingdoms before the first major onslaught. My guess is that Dany will have united enough people once she sets foot in Westeros to barely put up a fight against The Others. Jon will probably deal the final and most important blow in order to barely win the day. Probably by sacrificing himself.

[doghouse]

Quote

If D&D wear those shirts it is a dead giveaway that the theory is bunk. They are exceptionally careful not to give away the plot. Not least because it isn't their plot.

 

This clearly went over your head. He was referencing Ralph Lauren Polo shirts. It was a joke. 

[Pipewrenched]

41 minutes ago, Petite Psycophant said:

I always figured that Jon's parentage is only important because of the power he will one day wield. I've laways had a problem with people incisting that him being legitimized or recognized as being the legitimate heir is important.

From what I could infer from the books is that certain magic is tied to genetics as in it can't be learned. So the hero must be born from the right parents. The entire series is about the union of ice and fire. The Targaryens representing fire and the North representing ice. It's no accident that Rhaegar chose a northern girl after reading the prophecy to mate with.

Jon needs to be both a warg and a dragonrider for some important reason not yet revealed. Yes, you need someone to unify the Seven Kingdoms in order to fight The Others but that doesn't mean Jon has to be the one to do it. I don't even agree that they will succeed in joining the Seven Kingdoms before the first major onslaught. My guess is that Dany will have united enough people once she sets foot in Westeros to barely put up a fight against The Others. Jon will probably deal the final and most important blow in order to barely win the day. Probably by sacrificing himself.

Maybe it will become important how Mance told him about how he got the Cave dwellers and Giants, etc , etc, etc, to mrch in the same army....because he convinced them they would all die if they didn't ...

Perhaps now it will be Jon's turn to do the same..

[ShadowKitteh]

4 hours ago, hallam said:

You are using your theory as evidence to support your theory.

Jon is legitimate, we agree on that. But he cannot possibly be legitimate and be Lyanna's son. So the presence of the Kingsgard means that your theory is false.

Jon has to be Elias son. There is no contrary evidence to exclude it. The only thing missing is Rheagars motive for concealing the birth of a third son which can be explained by the prophecy.

....but, Elia couldn't have any more children after Aegon.