L+R=J ... but where would be the provenance?

[MrTrike]

If as speculated at ToJ, Lyanna tells Ned that the baby Jon is hers and Rhaegar's son and swears Ned to secrecy ... then that still leaves a dilemma. Yes Bran has seen it but how do you convince the last remaining Targaryen (Dani) and indeed Jon that this is true? Perhaps Bran would take Jon back to his ToJ birth? That still leaves proving such a claim is valid to Dani. Everyone is dead who was at ToJ except for Howard Reed ... does Howard have the provenance to prove Jon's parentage? Without such L+R=J is a pretty empty claim ... unless there is some other way to prove this claim? Can see little problem with the Starks accepting Jon is indeed a Stark ... although the rest of Westeros may have a problem with it.

[Kim Veie]

I have been thinking the same. I just don't see how people would belive it.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

Some kind of trinket which may be buried with Lyanna - like Rhaegars harp, crown, rings, marriage certificate.... (birth certificate and happy baby snaps  )

He hatches a dragon of his own. Hatching a dragon would convince Dany at least.

Is there a special Targaryen ancestral sword? Maybe that is in Lyannas tomb with her?

Dragon binder horn - some inscription on the side in Valyrian which reads "can only be blown by the prince who was promised or die" or something to that effect.

Maybe Targaryens are just so animalistically attracted to each other that as soon as Jon & Dany see each other, they will grab each other, get it on & of course "just know" lol

[Jon Snow Bengal]

If Bran warged a dragon and made it talk then that might be pretty convincing.

Didn't the children of the forest use/warg birds to speak to each other (literally) before the first men?

[bb1180]

If its true and assuming that it has some greater importance, then I think Jon will be able to prove it in some way eventually.  I tend toward a fairly commonly held idea that there may be an item or document hidden in Lyanna's tomb that proves Jon is a legitimate son of her and Rhaegar. Or perhaps Howland Reed has it. 

In any case,  I don't think Dany will be too thrilled at all to learn that a Targaryen with a higher claim than her own exists and may be rallying Westeros to follow him,  regardless of his purposes for doing so.  

[A bowl of brown]

1 hour ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

 

Is there a special Targaryen ancestral sword? 

Blackfyre was the traditional targ sword. Speculated in the books to be with the golden company. But as theres no aegon in the show I could see it being in lyannas tomb with rhaegars harp. 

Darksister is another one which bloodraven used.

[Faolchú]

Set Jon on fire. He won't burn. Proof enough isn't it??

[bb1180]

9 minutes ago, Faolchú said:

Set Jon on fire. He won't burn. Proof enough isn't it??

Targaryens are not fire proof.  Jon certainly isn't,  given that he burned his hand in both the books and the show.  

[Drunken_Sailor24]

I personally think there is going to be a time when Jon comes to face with the dragons, and the dragons are going to sense that he has Targaryen blood in him and show some type of affection towards him, or simply to not obey an order from Dany to kill him.

[Nami]

Maybe he and Dany doesn't need to know
I mean, what changes if he knows? If anything maybe he will know later on when maybe meeting Bran, but I don't see how this revelation will change his life, especially because I don't think he wants anything to do with the Iron Throne. He's worried about the WW and he will fight that war.

[Ludo Kressh]

2 hours ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

Some kind of trinket which may be buried with Lyanna - like Rhaegars harp, crown, rings, marriage certificate.... (birth certificate and happy baby snaps  )

He hatches a dragon of his own. Hatching a dragon would convince Dany at least.

Is there a special Targaryen ancestral sword? Maybe that is in Lyannas tomb with her?

Dragon binder horn - some inscription on the side in Valyrian which reads "can only be blown by the prince who was promised or die" or something to that effect.

Maybe Targaryens are just so animalistically attracted to each other that as soon as Jon & Dany see each other, they will grab each other, get it on & of course "just know" lol

I think Cat would want to know why Ned would bring home a harp, a Targ sword or any other of Rhaegar's trinkets besides a bastard son. It would be weird and raise a lot of questions. The only way I could see this is if somehow he hid them with Lyanna's body(like in her funeral bier or something) but then Robert would be suspicious as well. Idk, it would be very difficult for Ned to bring items like this back, but who knows.

[Mayura]

I don't think the claim will matter, I don't picture Jon claiming the Throne. The only thing that matters is that he will finally know about his origins and it will probably confirm Jon is the promised prince. 

As for the proof that J = R+L, I would doubt that Ned would take the risk to bring back an objet that can allow anyone to directly link Jon's birth to Rhaegar and Lyanna. Ned's goal was to protect Jon from Robert's wrath and keeping Rhaegar's harp or a Targ relic for Jon would have been very suspicious to say the least. But it is possible that GRRM chose to include such an item and that Howland Reed kept it, who knows. 

[Boudica]

49 minutes ago, bb1180 said:

If its true and assuming that it has some greater importance, then I think Jon will be able to prove it in some way eventually.  I tend toward a fairly commonly held idea that there may be an item or document hidden in Lyanna's tomb that proves Jon is a legitimate son of her and Rhaegar. Or perhaps Howland Reed has it. 

In any case,  I don't think Dany will be too thrilled at all to learn that a Targaryen with a higher claim than her own exists and may be rallying Westeros to follow him,  regardless of his purposes for doing so.  

 

Rhaegar's will. Robb made a will before going to the Twins and before his planned invasion of the North.  It makes sense that Rhaegar would have made a will before he went to the Trident. But perhaps it wouldn't be necessary for Jon to ever prove his claim. 

[bb1180]

17 minutes ago, Boudica said:

 

Rhaegar's will. Robb made a will before going to the Twins and before his planned invasion of the North.  It makes sense that Rhaegar would have made a will before he went to the Trident. But perhaps it wouldn't be necessary for Jon to ever prove his claim. 

I think its a possibility that such a document exists,  yes. 

In any case,  I think it will prove important,  perhaps vital,  to Jon's efforts to unite Westeros in his efforts against the Others.  I don't think Jon would want the Iron Throne,  mind you,  and I'm not convinced that's what's going to happen,  but at the same time,  it may be that circumstances don't leave him much alternative.  

[Lord Friendzone]

16 minutes ago, Boudica said:

 

Rhaegar's will. Robb made a will before going to the Twins and before his planned invasion of the North.  It makes sense that Rhaegar would have made a will before he went to the Trident. But perhaps it wouldn't be necessary for Jon to ever prove his claim. 

Ned would destroy any evidence. Leaving will doesn't make any sense unless Howland Reed got it. But then what it will be good for? It's no longer relevant and there is a different war to fight.

[RadSam]

Any evidence about R+L=J, I believe, would be with Howland. Whether it will be enough for all the lords etc to believe Jon, who knows? I hope so because the more power Jon has now, the more he will be able to grow an army to fight the coming war. 

I can see Jon not wanting the IT, but that doesn't mean he won't take it. He is honorable and has a sense of duty

I'm still confused about how Bran will get the truth to Jon. Will he leave the cave and try to get to Jon to tell him? Or is the fact that we can see people hear him during his visions have something to do with it? 

[hallam]

The show is demonstrating that the backstory is untrue.

The only evidence for R+L=J is that Jon looks Stark and a character called 'tells lies about Jon' says that he heard fifth hand that Elia has a cold after her second child and couldn't have a third.

This is call path dependence. Once you get people to come to a false conclusion they will continually invent evidence rather than change their minds.

We are shown that appearances can be changed by matter in episode one and this week we are shown that reports of Robert's rebellion are grossly distorted. We already know that Ned didn't defeat Arthur Dayne in honorable combat, he was stabbed in the throat from behind. In episode one everyone was like 'Trystane would never be so stupid as to turn his back on someone who just said they would kill him'. This week the greatest knight of his generation turns his back on Howland Reed and nobody thinks twice.

So we now know that the duel wasn't what was claimed. I think we are going to see the entire rationale for Robert's Rebellion unravel in the same way. We know that the real cause of the war of five kings was Littlefinger. We will likely see that Rheagar and possibly even Aerys were not so much in the wrong as people imagine.

R+L=J is a nonsense theory because bastards can't inherit and Rheagar predeceased Elia. 

Now obviously that tomb was built by Ned for a reason and that reason was to hide something important. Why not bury Lyanna with the other fallen? Why does Ashara Dayne disappear?

One serious possibility is that Dawn is buried with Lyanna. Only in the show Arthur Dayne has Dawn and is using it in the fight scene. 

I don't think the cry we hear from the tower supports R+L=J either. That sounded like someone being stabbed or stabbing herself. It didn't sound like childbirth to me. 

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

13 hours ago, MrTrike said:

Everyone is dead who was at ToJ except for Howard Reed ... does Howard have the provenance to prove Jon's parentage?

Howard Reed does not compute.

Please try again.

*For the grammar is dark and full of errors.*

---------------- //----------------

I actually think every Stark that is alive would like Jon to be legitimized. We have seen many times in the show Arya, Bran and Sansa, how they love him, respect him and seek him for help, trusting that he can keep them safe.

Bran will be able to show them, he will be capable of "sending dreams" like the 3eyed raven is if it comes to that.

[Sand11751]

 

While I also believe the actions of the dragons will give some validity when Jon's lineage is revealed, I agree that for Jon the knowledge would make no difference. He's a natural leader, but wouldn't want to be co-ruler or even associated with Daenerys on the throne. To the point about duty, pre-death, he was all about duty. but he's clearly convinced that it isn't worth the sacrifice of his life again. Some compelling reason would require him to change that view again.

[Mayura]

2 hours ago, hallam said:

The show is demonstrating that the backstory is untrue.

(...)

I don't think the cry we hear from the tower supports R+L=J either. That sounded like someone being stabbed or stabbing herself. It didn't sound like childbirth to me. 

The show is showing that reality is somewhat different from the stories/legends that are told. In the case of ToJ, the major difference is that Bran noticed his dad didn't tell him "the whole truth". He let Bran believe he had fought and defeated Dayne in single combat while the reality is different: Ned survived the battle thanks to Howland Reed who backstabbed Dayne before he could end Ned.

If we follow that logic, those events are there to show that Ned didn't always tell the truth to his children (or to everyone for that matters) and that, to the contrary of popular belief, Ned also kept his little secrets. Bran was shocked to discover that Ned never told him Reed backstabbed Dayne and, in his next vision, he is likely to discover that Ned lied to everyone for the past 20 or so years on the show and that Jon isn't Bran's half brother at all. 

R+L=J is so happening even on the show. It's happening so much that D&D wear polo shirts with R+L embroidered on them (literally). 

Regarding the topic of a possible will from Rhaegar, even if it exists, it would be pretty much irrelevant. Rhaegar died at least 17 years ago and even if Howland Reed saw things and stuff, I fail to see why and how Dany, the Lannisters, anyone would believe him.